PFT: Mike Shanahan: No one in NFL history has played at RG3′s level

[skinfan2k]

I hope you aren't counting the pick. That was ever so slightly overthrown, hardly boneheaded.

Nope. The one where he was running out of bounds and he just flicked it back into the playing area. That was 1. Now that you bring it up, i cant remember the other pass play

[Bacon]

Yeah, that was awful. I appreciate his guts, but he still dreads going out of bounds. He probably does have the arm to throw across his body, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[doghouse4x4]

Yeah, that was awful. I appreciate his guts, but he still dreads going out of bounds. He probably does have the arm to throw across his body, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Yeah, it usually isn't!

[darrelgreenie]

I noticed this awhile back (if I can find it I'll post it). And I think the low 3rd and long conversion rate is more the result of the schematic/gameplan approach this offense takes then it is a result of Griffin's ability or lack thereof on 3rd +.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?371726-One-of-the-Redskins-BIGGEST-continued-failings-both-sides-of-the-ball-3rd-down-conversions-stops.&p=9197658&viewfull=1#post9197658

[GoSkins561]

I've said it before -- Robert is the best QB I've ever seen -- meaning the most talented. I think Mike is saying the same thing. I doubt that he meant just the best rookie QB. He's grading QB, not QB + Team + Scheme.

Let's wait for the man to win a couple of Super Bowls or throw for 40+ TD's before making this claim. Peyton Manning is not surrounded by a ton of talent on offense, he is making The Broncos a hell of a lot better with his ARM.

[Oldfan]

You're refering to talent level, Mike S refered to performance level, specifically he said:If Mike said Griff is the most talented QB or talented player, I would be inclined to agree.

But the reference Mike S made was about level of performance.

If all you knew about Mike Shanahan and quarterbacks was that one comment, then you could interpret the word "played" as you have. But, he has repeated over and over that QBs need a good supporting cast and a good scheme in order to play close to their full potential. So, it's clear that, when he uses the word "played" he's not judging RG3 on his team and scheme related performances. He's talking about Robert's own performance, not the one that can be measured by statistics that combine QB, team and scheme into one number.

[CjSuAvE22]

Tomm RGIII will put the last nail in the Romo sits to pee/Garretts coffin and its going to look beautiful, who cares if he doesnt win ROTY i could careless i know who the best rookie qb is some stupid award isnt going to TELL ME.

[Oldfan]

Let's wait for the man to win a couple of Super Bowls or throw for 40+ TD's before making this claim. Peyton Manning is not surrounded by a ton of talent on offense, he is making The Broncos a hell of a lot better with his ARM.

There is no reason for me to wait. I don't judge QBs as you do. I don't judge QBs by team or scheme influenced stats.

When I look at Peyton, I see a QB with limited talent masked by 15 years experience in the smartest passing scheme in the NFL (link below). I see a Broncos team that gives him more support, offense, defense, special teams combined than he ever got in Indianapolis where they drafted with emphasis on offense.

http://smartfootball.com/offense/peyton-manning-and-tom-moores-indianapolis-colts-offense

[doghouse4x4]

There is no reason for me to wait. I don't judge QBs as you do. I don't judge QBs by team or scheme influenced stats.

When I look at Peyton, I see a QB with limited talent masked by 15 years experience in the smartest passing scheme in the NFL. I see a Broncos team that gives him more support, offense, defense, special teams combined than he ever got in Indianapolis where they drafted with emphasis on offense.

http://smartfootball.com/offense/peyton-manning-and-tom-moores-indianapolis-colts-offense

I would argue that talent and ability are not synonyms in this case, and Peyton is oozing with talent.

[Oldfan]

I would argue that talent and ability are not synonyms in this case, and Peyton is oozing with talent.

Can you specifically describe the talent he oozes?

[skinsmarydu]

I think he is right. RG3 is putting unprecedented pressure on the defense. THe closest comparison is Steve Young with sprinter's speed (not that Steve Young was slow to start with). Bob Griff's accuracy is insane.

First game, I was crying with joy watching him strap his helmet on. Hubby's like WTF? Then with the long touchdown pass, he said "That's why you got him." My response was, "Yep, damn right."

My dad says the SAME thing about Griffin and Young. He thinks people who compare him to Vick, Newton, etc are silly. He said he reminds him of Young, only better.

Hubby loved the Niners, we have a framed Ronnie Lott signed poster. He'll watch the Skins and pressers with me, and his mind is blown. Robert is a smart guy.

My favorite thing so far was when he was rehabbing the knee, and some mediot asked him if he felt like himself. Response: "I feel like myself every day."

Almost fell outta my chair laughing.

[DarkLink]

RG3 in his rookie year is already displaying unbelievable talent and breaking records.He is fast, running ability is lethal, his passing accuracy is one of a kind in the pocket, his passing outside the pocket is just as good, his decision making has been unique with only 5 interceptions coming into the last game of the season. His presence alone creates fear to everyone who goes against him because veterans on D know they gonna get schooled by a rookie (and rookie running back). I'm not gonna say he is the best QB to ever play the game yet, but I will put him in the top 5 currently in the NFL. Each year he is gonna get better and better. I don't have any doubt in my mind that when he knows the playbook by heart and start calling plays on the line depending on how the D is set up, he will probably be unstoppable hence being the best to play the game.

[doghouse4x4]

Can you specifically describe the talent he oozes?

His talent for raising the game of his teammates, his talent for understanding offensive and defensive principles, his talent for reading on field defense, his talent for quickly diagnosing coverage post snap, his talent for quick delivery....

That's just the tip of the iceberg. It seems you are pointing to his diminished athletic ability, which is a fraction of his game.

[HighOnHendrix]

...And just think what level he'll be at in three years.

[MustangSteve]

A bunch of ppl were going CRAZY on twitter because he said that...specifically this Freeman guy from CBS. He was saying that there numerous QBs way better including Luck. I tweeted his hating ass but he didn't respond

I can't wait until Luck hit's the playoffs and gets embarrassed and exposed in front of the world. And he's going to get both for damn sure!

[darrelgreenie]

If all you knew about Mike Shanahan and quarterbacks was that one comment, then you could interpret the word "played" as you have.

Sure Mike has made other statements about the QB position. But, the current statement:

“I don’t think anybody in the history of the league has played at his level,” Shanahan said. “At least over the last 40 years, when I take a look at the numbers and what he has done, I don’t think anybody has played at his level.

Is distinct from the other statements. Its either an exxageration or a comparison to rookies.

Because for his statement to be true then Griff would have to currently be playing at higher level then anyone player not just QB player in NFL history. I don't think Mike believes that Griffin is playing at higher level then any player he's ever seen in the past 40 years.

Do you think Griffin is currently playing at higher level then every other QB or player in the past 40 years by any mean of evaluation or measure or metric?

But, he has repeated over and over that QBs need a good supporting cast and a good scheme in order to play close to their full potential. So, it's clear that, when he uses the word "played" he's not judging RG3 on his team and scheme related performances. He's talking about Robert's own performance, not the one that can be measured by statistics that combine QB, team and scheme into one number.

Yes, Mike has said a QB needs a good supporting cast, which is obviously true.

And even if Mike is judging Griffin the way you state above it is still a leap to the statement that Griffin is playing at higher level then any player/QB in the past 40 years regardless of how you evaluate it.

Also, and not that this changes anything but Mike did mention 'when I look at the numbers and what he[Griff] has done..' which is a reference to some statisitcal measurements. I acknowledge that QB evaluation is complex and QB stats carry some degree of spill over from their supporting cast and end up measuring the 'passing game' but that doesn't render those stats meaningless. Like with any stat QB/passing game stats have to be looked at with an eye on context.

[kevinklein]

This paired with Griffin's "I hope I'm a Redskin forever" comments are enough to make the last twenty years of futility seem worthwhile.

[Oldfan]

His talent for raising the game of his teammates, his talent for understanding offensive and defensive principles, his talent for reading on field defense, his talent for quickly diagnosing coverage post snap, his talent for quick delivery....

That's just the tip of the iceberg. It seems you are pointing to his diminished athletic ability, which is a fraction of his game.

You have chosen intangibles, things that can't be seen, things which are easily exaggerated, things which cannot be proven to be bunk. This is what happens when the QB gets results that his lack of physical talent can't explain.

In my mind, Peyton gets extra credit for getting the most out of his limited talent, but he benefits from the smartest scheme possible for someone with his limited talent.

[HighOnHendrix]

He was obviously referring to QBs in their rookie season. ES on a tangent...can't say I'm surprised.

[brandymac27]

His talent for raising the game of his teammates, his talent for understanding offensive and defensive principles, his talent for reading on field defense, his talent for quickly diagnosing coverage post snap, his talent for quick delivery....

I feel that Griffin exhibits all of these same skills as well (I know that's not what you and OF are debating, just wanted to point it out). The great thing is that all of these things will only get BETTER with time. This is still his rookie year- which is so astounding that he's able to exhibit these skills at this level being so young. I can't even begin to fathom what his "ceiling" actually is at this point, but I sure as hell can't wait to see it! I mean, as others have said so many times, if he's THIS good now, what's he gonna be like 5 years from now? It gives me chills just thinking about it!

All I know is, we definitely got the best QB in the 2012 draft. I don't care anymore who wins ROTY, MVP, etc. He's ours, and he's gonna be for a long time. Even if he doesn't win these awards this year, I know without a doubt he will in the future. He'll have plenty of time for accolades. Everyone, including the "Luck for ROTY" crowd, will see just how great Griffin really is and just how much he deserves all the recognition, if not now, definitely in years to come.

---------- Post added December-29th-2012 at 01:22 PM ----------

He was obviously referring to QBs in their rookie season. ES on a tangent...can't say I'm surprised.

Why is ES on a tangent? We have a phenomenal QB who is only going to get better with time. We're facing the biggest game of the season, so why rain on everyone's parade?

[GoSkins561]

Can you specifically describe the talent he oozes?

Here you go, he being Peyton Manning, not the team, threw for 49 TD's in a single season....

RG3 is a beast and he makes The Redskins a MUCH better team, with that said, Peyton Manning does the same.

The Broncos averaged 19 points a game last season, you add Peyton Manning and all of the sudden they are averaging 29.5 points per game and they became the second highest scoring offense in the NFL.

It's a fact, if you add Peyton Manning to a team, his ability to read defensesI(individual talent), and throw the ball (individual talent) makes the team better.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_td_single_season.htm

[Oldfan]

...Also, and not that this changes anything but Mike did mention 'when I look at the numbers and what he[Griff] has done..' which is a reference to some statisitcal measurements. I acknowledge that QB evaluation is complex and QB stats carry some degree of spill over from their supporting cast and end up measuring the 'passing game' but that doesn't render those stats meaningless. Like with any stat QB/passing game stats have to be looked at with an eye on context.

I think Mike Shanahan and I agree that Robert Griffin III is the best football player of the modern era because:

1) The QB position is most important in the game;

2) Athletic-QBs are greater threats to defenses than their less athletic peers;

3) His skill set, passing and running combined, are unrivaled by any QB who ever played the game;

4) He has demonstrated that his skills mental and physical are apparent at the NFL level of play (He's not just a great college player).

As for statistics, Shanny is probably talking about his own stats which are far more reliable than those published for NFL fans because he knows who to blame and who to credit if plays succeed or fail.

I use some stats also: IMO, football stats can be properly used to verify what you see on the field. For example, if I credit RG3 with above-average to excellent deep pass ability, I can verify that his deep passing stat reflects that while allowing for the quality grade of his receivers and his scheme to get receivers open deep. If there's a disparity between the deep completion percentage and my opinion, then I have to examine those other factors to decide whether my opinion is biased or the stat is deceptive for some reason.

[brandymac27]

As for statistics, Shanny is probably talking about his own stats which are far more reliable than those published for NFL fans because he knows who to blame and who to credit if plays succeed or fail.

Along with everything else OF posted, I would have to agree with his entire post, but especially the part I quoted above. It's kind of hard to debate this. Plus, take into consideration some of the other QB's Mike has worked with. You'd think the man knows what he's talking about.

[Oldfan]

...It's a fact, if you add Peyton Manning to a team, his ability to read defensesI(individual talent), and throw the ball (individual talent) makes the team better.

Those 49 TDs are a TEAM stat, not a measure of individual talent.

Peyton is an above average pocket passer. He has gotten excellent results because of Tom Moore's exceptional quarterback friendly scheme.

Denver is scoring 10 points more than last year because:

1) Peyton and just about every QB in the NFL are better than Tebow;

2) Peyton took Tom Moore's scheme with him.

It's a fact, if you add Peyton Manning to a team, his ability to read defensesI(individual talent), and throw the ball (individual talent) makes the team better.

Your deduction isn't valid because only Denver had to replace a lousy scheme and a lousy QB. Manning would not have been as much an upgrade as RG3 has been for the Skins. He would have been a downgrade to several other teams.

[deejaydana]

You have chosen intangibles, things that can't be seen, things which are easily exaggerated, things which cannot be proven to be bunk. This is what happens when the QB gets results that his lack of physical talent can't explain.

In my mind, Peyton gets extra credit for getting the most out of his limited talent, but he benefits from the smartest scheme possible for someone with his limited talent.

What OF, do you consider to be part of Peyton's limited talent? The ONLY limit that I've ever noticed myself is a noticeable lack of mobility (which he's always had). Other than that I think he's possibly the best QB ever. Pinpoint accuracy and basically a mind of the best head coach while he's at the LOS before the snap. And unreal work ethic.