The Robert Griffin Experience Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Who is an example of a grade A pocket passer, every bit as good as Brady, who failed to win nearly as much because he lacked the support system? Just asking. If you're saying that Brady wouldn't be one of the best QBs ever in terms of performance without his supporting cast, then show us an example of what Brady would be if he didn't have that cast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyskins Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 You want to know why I think Tom Brady is overrated? Go back to the OP and read my hypothetical again. I make an argument there that others seem to understand without a problem. It's great that you spent time to write and keep referring to the Tom and Dave scenario but this is neither revolutionary or insightful. Everybody knows that QBs do not develop in a vacuum and this is a team sport. Our argument was is that the Patriots did not surround Brady with overwhelming talent and had different WRs, RBs, and assistant coaches/coordinators and Brady managed to have consistently great results. How you maintain your position in the face of overwhelming evidence against it is crazy. ---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 04:01 PM ---------- [/color]There's an argument in the OP that begins with the hypothetical that explains why the bandwagon opinion on QBs is worthless. I'll bet you can't find a flaw in it. The flaw in your talent rating system is that it only looks at a narrow view of the talent necessary to make a QB successful. It only takes into account physical traits which makes your system essentially a dumbed down, poor mans version of the combine. And, we all know how reliable the combine is for displaying the total talent level of a player. As Ive said ad-nausea in the thread, the results (rankings) of this system clearly show that it is flawed and not a true indicator of the talent of a QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 It's great that you spent time to write and keep referring to the Tom and Dave scenario but this is neither revolutionary or insightful. Everybody knows that QBs do not develop in a vacuum and this is a team sport. Our argument was is that the Patriots did not surround Brady with overwhelming talent and had different WRs, RBs, and assistant coaches/coordinators and Brady managed to have consistently great results. How you maintain your position in the face of overwhelming evidence against it is crazy.An argument is sound when an intelligent, impartial mind would find it persuasive. Your argument is a sham. Only an idiot would believe that you are capable of fairly and accurately grading an entire roster over a decade including the coaches, schemes, etc. I feel like a fool wasting my time to even write this paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 When the handful of facts includes 5 AFC titles, 3 Super Bowl wins, a 16-0 regular season, a 50-TD season, multiple MVP awards... it says a lot. Can you blame me for cherry-picking those? Would you cherry-pick the INT he threw in week 2 of the 2005 season as the case for him being overrated. :hysterical: Dude, come on. The premise is a physical grade on physical traits. Not statistics. Therefore, statistics don't prove your point in THIS debate. You may be right, and I'd tend to agree, that he's overall one of the best of all time. But that's not what the premise or purpose of this thread is. It's based on the physical. just so we're clear, facts are true things, ok? I try to base my opinion by knowing facts.Is it not obvious to you that the facts cause this arguement to lean towards Brady being great instead of Brady being overrated? This does nothing to combat the supporting cast/system quarterback opinion. People think the term "system quarterback" is a dirty word. It's not. It means the system and the quarterback melded well. It's a good thing. ---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 05:17 PM ---------- Just asking. If you're saying that Brady wouldn't be one of the best QBs ever in terms of performance without his supporting cast, then show us an example of what Brady would be if he didn't have that cast? Too easy. Dan Marino. Peyton Manning. ---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 05:18 PM ---------- The flaw in your talent rating system is that it only looks at a narrow view of the talent necessary to make a QB successful. It only takes into account physical traits which makes your system essentially a dumbed down, poor mans version of the combine. Why do you guys keep pushing this? It's a grading system for physical ability only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laron Burgundy Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I feel like this is just trolling. Oldfan's rating system just rates how athletic and accurate a qb is, and clearly Brady was never a great athlete, so he gets docked points. Truth be told a qb such as RG3 puts more stress on a defense than one like Brady ever could, but rating everything on a 5 point scale says a qb's scrambling ability is just as important as his throwing ability, and that is just not at all realistic. ---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 05:35 PM ---------- Too easy. Dan Marino. Peyton Manning. And the Peyton Manning one can't be serious. Sure, Brady was coddled in his early career thanks to that Patriots defense, but Manning had incredible stability on offense with the coaching as well as players, as well as having pro bowl/hof talents at LT, C, 2 WR, TE and RB. There is no question Manning had more surrounding talent on offense for the majority of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyskins Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Only an idiot would believe that you are capable of fairly and accurately grading an entire roster over a decade including the coaches, schemes, etc. I feel like a fool wasting my time to even write this paragraph. But this is exactly what you have done. You believe that you are capable of accurately grading the entire roster for the Patriots as the reason why he was successful. You did this in the face of evidence against it and you have been unable to find any evidence to back up your claim. When people disagree you just ramble about you being intelligent, which is not an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Year_of_The_Monk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 After being on my RG3 high, I think back and ask myself, how did I live with guys like Heath Shuler and Jason Campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 But this is exactly what you have done. You believe that you are capable of accurately grading the entire roster for the Patriots as the reason why he was successful. You did this in the face of evidence against it and you have been unable to find any evidence to back up your claim. When people disagree you just ramble about you being intelligent, which is not an argument.If I find at least one more fact than you did proving that he had outstanding support, will you concede you're wrong?No, of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Oldfan only agrees with a system that he creates. This is remarkable news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Oldfan only agrees with a system that he creates. This is remarkable news!I must be losing touch. Seems to me I used to warrant a higher grade of drive-by poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyskins Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 If I find at least one more fact than you did proving that he had outstanding support, will you concede you're wrong?No, of course not. If it was strong enough evidence to counter what I already know then I would surely change my opinion. That is what intelligent people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 If it was strong enough evidence to counter what I already know then I would surely change my opinion. That is what intelligent people do.Okay, let's try this. Will you concede that Bill Belichik is the best coach in the NFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 If it was strong enough evidence to counter what I already know then I would surely change my opinion. That is what intelligent people do. I'll take a stab at it, although I'll probably miss a few of OF's points. He has said that Brady is a Grade A passer, which I think everyone on here can agree with. When he talks about "support system" he not only means other players, but also coaches, front office, etc. While Brady's players have changed more often than a politician's stance, his front office and head coach have remained the same (the OC has changed, but the offensive system is Belichick's - therefore the OC rotation would not have as much an effect). This stability provides Brady with a familiarity of the system that will accentuate his strong points and hide his weaknesses (as any good offensive system would do - Brady's gets pointed out though because of the length of the stability). Brady "looks" better than a quarterback of similar physical attributes who is in an offense that is always in flux because of this familiarity. I wouldn't say Brady is overrated in terms of "he sucks but people say he's great" but rather "he's very good and has flourished in an offense that makes him look even better". Mind you, this could be said for just about any QB who has been in the same system for years and years. A QB like Brady isn't going to do well in an offense that requires him to move, just like a QB like RG3 isn't going to be as good in a system like Brady's, that is designed to keep him protected in the pocket. Any QB in the right system could be said to be "overrated" because the system accentuates his abilities and hides his deficiencies, and any QB in the wrong system could be said to be "underrated" because is does not allow him to do what he does best. Oldfan, how did I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I must be losing touch. Seems to me I used to warrant a higher grade of drive-by poster. This thread is obvious. You dont need to make a system to grade Qbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyskins Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Okay, let's try this. Will you concede that Bill Belichik is the best coach in the NFL? For the sake of this argument, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 ...Oldfan, how did I do?I'll give you an A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Okay, let's try this. Will you concede that Bill Belichik is the best coach in the NFL? Never. He cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'll give you an A. :adoration :1stplace: :party: :jump: :high5: :peaceout: OK, I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 For the sake of this argument, sure. Will you concede that Matt Cassell's finest year was in 2008 with the Patriots and that.. a 33% increase in Brady's QB rating from 2006, when he had the worst receivers in the NFL, to 2007 when Welker and Moss were added to the roster indicates that receivers make a big difference to a QB's performance? I have to leave you now but... Will you concede that Brady was supported by 20 players (I probably missed a few) who made the All Pro squad. Several of them multiple times and several who were first team all pros in multiple years? Seymour Welker Law Viniateri Gotkowski Light Mankins Mayo Moss Samuel Verabel Harrison Izzo Merriweather Bruschi Carter Koppen Brown Wilfork Milloy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogofWar1 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Will you concede that Matt Cassell's finest year was in 2008 with the Patriots and that.. a 33% increase in Brady's QB rating from 2006, when he had the worst receivers in the NFL, to 2007 when Welker and Moss were added to the roster indicates that receivers make a big difference to a QB's performance? The short answer to your question is "yes" in that receivers make a difference, but it's more complicated than that. In 2006, even with bad WRs, Brady still completed 61% of his passes, and had a 2-1 TD-INT ratio, and ended with an 87.9 rating. His average rating is a 96 over 10 seasons, and his worst season where he played most of the games was an 85.7 rating in '02. My point here is that, good WRs or bad, Brady has consistently put up very good statistics. As you said, in 2006 he had crappy support, while in 2007 he had great support, and saw a huge improvement in his rating and stat-line, but his stat-line in 2006 was still very good. I think some people here do undervalue team support, but at the same time, I think you might be overvaluing team support a little bit as well. QBs like Brady will still play well in almost every situation, almost regardless of the support around them. They play better with great support, but even without it, if they have an average team they'll still do well. Also, being a little nit-picky, but Cassel's finest year, in terms of rating, and TD-INT came in 2010 with the Chiefs. He's been inconsistent though, and looks done now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 ...Also, being a little nit-picky, but Cassel's finest year, in terms of rating, and TD-INT came in 2010 with the Chiefs. He's been inconsistent though, and looks done now.I was defining "finest year" in terms of his reputation, but I didn't make that clear.I regard Brady as the best of the pocket passers. They don't get any better, but all QBs on winning teams are overrated, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Robert Griffin Experience Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Will you concede that Matt Cassell's finest year was in 2008 with the Patriots and that.. a 33% increase in Brady's QB rating from 2006, when he had the worst receivers in the NFL, to 2007 when Welker and Moss were added to the roster indicates that receivers make a big difference to a QB's performance? I have to leave you now but... Yes, but there's a definite ceiling to how good the WRs can make the QB. Matt Cassel in 2008 with Brady's supporting cast: 21 TDs, 11 INTs, 89.4 QBR, 6.9 YPA, 10-5 record as a starter: Brady in 2006 with the pre Moss/pre Welker supporting cast: 24 TDs, 12 INTs, 87.9 YPA, 6.8 YPA, 12-4 record as a starter. So yes, Brady's performance was drastically improved by going from having the worst WR corps in the NFL to the best. But his performance with the worst WR corps in the NFL was essentially equal to Cassel's performance with the best WR corps in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyskins Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Will you concede that Matt Cassell's finest year was in 2008 with the Patriots and that.. a 33% increase in Brady's QB rating from 2006, when he had the worst receivers in the NFL, to 2007 when Welker and Moss were added to the roster indicates that receivers make a big difference to a QB's performance? I have to leave you now but... Will you concede that Brady was supported by 20 players (I probably missed a few) who made the All Pro squad. Several of them multiple times and several who were first team all pros in multiple years? Seymour Welker Law Viniateri Gotkowski Light Mankins Mayo Moss Samuel Verabel Harrison Izzo Merriweather Bruschi Carter Koppen Brown Wilfork Milloy Yes, Cassel's best year was with the Pats in 2008. However, we have covered this before to say the Pat's offence production dropped dramatically when Cassel took over compared to the year before. Cassel was working with the same receivers and system at that time. Will you concede that the drop in ~1200 yds passing, 29 passing TDs, and an increase in 8 INTs is a result of Brady's absence? Of course production will go up with better receivers, as what happened when the Pats got Moss and Welker. But, that does not account for the production he put up prior to 2006, when he won 3 SBs. Will you concede that Brady was very successful without premier receivers? Of those players you listed only 6 played offense Welker, Light, Mankins, Moss, Koppen, Brown. The rest may have helped the team win more games but did not account for offensive production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 This thread is obvious. You dont need to make a system to grade Qbs Make that your last post in this thread. And don't PM me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no trolling going on here re: the OP, Laron Burgundy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's what I see (and it's nothing new): OF can be wrong, annoying, and obstinate at any given time (few are exempt from this comment). OF has a definite style, one I've explained in threads and PM in the past, that involves more the classical forms of debate and logic that are alien to many posters. He is good at it--perhaps not as good as he thinks he is, but better than most of his challengers. That style can be particularly frustrating if you're on the short end---just like in actual debates. Some people do seem to get "extra" attitudinally erect when engaging him in argument and some more dense (to pick a term) than is their norm. Some contest him quite well, and do just fine win/lose/draw, or go with not even looking at it in such terms. When and where, all or any of this, is occurring is immaterial as long as there are no board management issues in the view of any moderator. Many well recognized posters have one or more signature aspects to their style, and of varying values (liked/despised--cool/sucks) to various members. Several such are active in this thread. OF is always knowledgeable (football-wise and just general intelligence) and interesting, IMV. He usualy gernetas a lot of solid football talk, which is our primary raison d'être. There is a reason he has the specialty id tag under his name. This will be the last time I interrupt this thread for some sort of "management" post. In fact, it's the last time I intend to make these comments on such a matter, as I have already made more than a few times over the years. I want no one to respond to this post. If you do it will be a week off. Read it and heed or reject whatever you choose. Now---carry on....there's some very good and fun discussion in this now-20-page thread, especially when no one's tantruming or grousing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 OF you are right in everything you say but my question is how do we apply this against certain coaches, schemes and personnel? Thats where i might have misfired earlier. Optimally you want someone with Vick Speed, Peyton Manning Brain, Tom Brady Coolness in the pocket, and Aaron Rodgers accuracy. How we do use your model and would this model be more applicable to use in college when looking at QB talent at the high school ranks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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