RG3 posts the highest QBTG ever.

[darrelgreenie]

We would also need to take into account the time from hitting the top of the drop to release then. Like KDawg said, a 1 step drop is generally an immediate release, while the QB may have to hold the ball for a split second on a 3 or 5 step drop, depending on the route.

Then you would need to take into consideration does he need to climb the pocket?

This would be fun

True enough but those areas would fall more under throwing motion:release time and pocket awareness then it pass protection.

[skinnyskins]

1) He never claimed it to be flawless

2) Based on physical abilities, you'd still be wrong. The Patriots system isn't based on a mobile quarterback. Tom Brady, even in Oldfan's assessment, grades out as a much better passer than Tebow does. That fits the Patriots style better. So no. It doesn't mean Tebow would be successful.

3) I think you have Tebow's passing abilities graded a bit too high.

4) Again, this is based entirely on physical abilities. NOT mental prowess.

Sarcasm is so unappreciated on the interwebs.

Nonetheless, the point was that the system is flawed. Oldfan's system weights running ability far to much over the QBs primary job: throwing the football. If the system attached weights to some of the criteria that would give more importance to throwing and less to running then it would be a much more effective system to gauge physical talent for QBs.

Also, I dont know where you are getting the idea that I factored mental prowess into Tebow's ranking.

[Warpath11]

Tim Tebow - 19

1 - Deep Ball

2 - Mid Ball

2 - Short Ball

4 - Throw on the run

5 - Extend Play

5 - Run Threat

Tim Tebow is clearly the superior talent compared to the dregs like Tom Brady and his paltry rating of 16. In fact, if Tebow were the QB of the Patriots you can bet that they would have stomped all over the Gmen in those Superbowls. Tebow may not have the prettiest throw, but his run threat more than makes up for it.

Take this as fact because this is the true talent indicator from the flawless system that is QBTG.

This has been covered ad nuaseum in the thread. OF admitted that there might be a way to put more weight on the throwing aspects for a QB because as you point out a RB can score off the charts in the runnig aspects and still come up with a decent score (double digit anyway).

[cphil006]

Thing about Oldfan is, he already thought Tom Brady was an overrated quarterback, and that you could slip a guy like Marc Bulger into his shoes and get the exact same production. He already thought Tom Brady was a system quarterback more bolstered by the head coach he feels is the best in the NFL than by any sort of talent. He already thought Jay Cutler was the best quarterback in the league from a raw physical standpoint and said we shouldn't settle for anyone but someone who matched his exact physical profile.

He thought all this BEFORE he even knew about Robert Griffin III. He was lukewarm on the whole idea of trading up, and I do believe he concerned him a run-first guy, and he barely watched any of him at Baylor.

Oh, but NOW Robert Griffin III matches all his specifications, and that makes RGIII the best quarterback in the league. As someone who was on the RGIII bangwagon far before Oldfan, Robert's the most gifted, athletic quarterback to be drafted in a long time, and his development is lightyears ahead of where any of us thought it'd be. And he's STILL not the best quarterback in the NFL. At least not yet.

Because if this was really a fact based analysis stripped of analysis on who the best quarterback in the NFL was, Aaron Rodgers----who fits ever physical talent characteristic Oldfan claims he values---would rank first. Not RGIII.

Aaron Rodgers---29

---------

5- Deep Passing

5- Mid-range passing

5- Short-range passing

5- Throwing on the run

5- Extending plays

4- Running threat

But don't expect Oldfan to actually respond to this. I guess that's what I get for asking him to ignore my post. But if you're looking for an example of why this is bull****, Aaron Rodgers is it.

He just felt the opportunity to slag on Tom Brady was good.

I def see your point and it's well made.

OF has proclaimed several head-scratchers on ES, so I'll add this to the list that has me laughing:

1- Norv Turner is a better head coach than Mike Shanahan :doh:

2- Jim Zorn's 2008 offense was top-10 (according to his subjective rankings)

3- Tom Brady is overrated. :confused:

[Hitman21ST]

True enough but those areas would fall more under throwing motion:release time and pocket awareness then it pass protection.

Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize you were just talkig about pass pro. Thought you were discussing the whole process.

On that note, another variable would have to be number of rushers. A line will perform better against three rushers than against four, and do on. So we would have to break it down by number of rushers also.

Expanding even further, we would have to either count any RBs or TEs who stay in and block in pass pro, or try to isolate their contributions and ignore them - example: a defense rushes six, and the play calls for a RB to stay in and block. The OL allows a free rusher, but the RB picks him up, which allows the QB to get to his drop in the ideal time. Do you count that block by the RB or remove him and grade it as a hurry/sack?

[KDawg]

Also, I dont know where you are getting the idea that I factored mental prowess into Tebow's ranking.

I didn't say you did. I was making the point that Brady's mental prowess and pocket passer ability make him better than Tebow. I can't measure that he's smarter than Tebow, though, so it's pure opinion on my end. But because the system doesn't take that into consideration, it's impossible to predict his mental impact on the system, therefore, it comes down to physical fit.

And although you grade Tebow out higher than OF did Brady, OF's passing grades were higher for Brady than yours for Tebow. Which still makes Brady a better fit in the Patriot offense.

[Oldfan]

...Oldfan's system weights running ability far to much over the QBs primary job: throwing the football.

Earlier in this thread, I thought the first poster to raise this objection had a valid point. After further review, I realized that I have four passing categories and two mobility categories. That means that the weight of the scoring is 4-2. pass-run. Two-thirds to passing, one-third to running/play extension. If anything, that ratio short changes the athlete QBs.

Currently, RG3's runs alone are one-third of his pass attempts.

[darrelgreenie]

Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize you were just talkig about pass pro. Thought you were discussing the whole process.

On that note, another variable would have to be number of rushers. A line will perform better against three rushers than against four, and do on. So we would have to break it down by number of rushers also.

Expanding even further, we would have to either count any RBs or TEs who stay in and block in pass pro, or try to isolate their contributions and ignore them - example: a defense rushes six, and the play calls for a RB to stay in and block. The OL allows a free rusher, but the RB picks him up, which allows the QB to get to his drop in the ideal time. Do you count that block by the RB or remove him and grade it as a hurry/sack?

Its all time dependent in my eyes. For evaluating pass protection I care more about the time then any other factor.

[Oldfan]

I def see your point and it's well made.

OF has proclaimed several head-scratchers on ES, so I'll add this to the list that has me laughing:

1- Norv Turner is a better head coach than Mike Shanahan :doh:

2- Jim Zorn's 2008 offense was top-10 (according to his subjective rankings)

3- Tom Brady is overrated. :confused:

Only two-thirds lies. That's better than most of my detractors.

[Hitman21ST]

Earlier in this thread, I thought the first poster to raise this objection had a valid point. After further review, I realized that I have four passing categories and two mobility categories. That means that the weight of the scoring is 4-2. pass-run. Two-thirds to passing, one-third to running/play extension. If anything, that ratio short changes the athlete QBs.

Currently, RG3's runs alone are one-third of his pass attempts.

Then shouldn't that ratio fit ? 2-1 seems pretty fair, because if it were closer to even, that would unfairly give athletic QBs an advantage. If you lend equal weight, then his running ability is disproportionately graded because you're lessening the importance of passing ability.

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 11:18 AM ----------

Its all time dependent in my eyes. For evaluating pass protection I care more about the time then any other factor.

Time is affected by number of pass rushers though. A three man rush isn't going to be able to get to the QB as quick as a four or five man.

[KDawg]

Then shouldn't that ratio fit ? 2-1 seems pretty fair, because if it were closer to even, that would unfairly give athletic QBs an advantage. If you lend equal weight, then his running ability is disproportionately graded because you're lessening the importance of passing ability.

Gotta tell you, it's nice to see you discussing the system rather than his own subjective grades. It adds a level of civil discourse to the conversation and makes things more fun and interesting. Kudos to you for changing direction.

[Hitman21ST]

Its all time dependent in my eyes. For evaluating pass protection I care more about the time then any other factor.

Time is affected by number of pass rushers though. A three man rush isn't going to be able to get to the QB as quick as a four or five man.

[skinnyskins]

Earlier in this thread, I thought the first poster to raise this objection had a valid point. After further review, I realized that I have four passing categories and two mobility categories. That means that the weight of the scoring is 4-2. pass-run. Two-thirds to passing, one-third to running/play extension. If anything, that ratio short changes the athlete QBs.

Currently, RG3's runs alone are one-third of his pass attempts.

It makes no difference whether you consider one category of your system as technically a 'passing' or 'running' category because the final scores are still disproportionately in favor of running QBs. Running is overvalued no matter how much you make excuses that it's not. If you truly want to make this a system that values passing over running then you need to add more passing categories or remove/combine the extending plays and run threat category. It's arithmetic, not semantics.

[KDawg]

It makes no difference whether you consider one category of your system as technically a 'passing' or 'running' category because the final scores are still disproportionately in favor of running QBs. Running is overvalued no matter how much you make excuses that it's not. If you truly want to make this a system that values passing over running then you need to add more passing categories or remove/combine the extending plays and run threat category. It's arithmetic, not semantics.

Or just separate them and add them if your team values running. Although I'd argue that "extending the play" isn't a running category. So it's really 5:1 ratio of pass to run.

But I think it's as simple as removing the "run threat" category for a system that doesn't value it. *shrug*

[Hitman21ST]

Gotta tell you, it's nice to see you discussing the system rather than his own subjective grades. It adds a level of civil discourse to the conversation and makes things more fun and interesting. Kudos to you for changing direction.

Appreciate it . To clarify, my issue wasn't with the grade he gave out, but rather with his thought process behind the grade.

If he came out and said he developed a new system of math, and in it 2+2=5, I would ask for an explanation into his process before I came out and accepted it. That's the same principle I'm working with here. It sounds good, but I'm confused about his grading criteria since his grades give Brady and Skelton the same grade in that category.

I'm digressing though. The arm/leg ratio fits the system

[skinnyskins]

Or just separate them and add them if your team values running. Although I'd argue that "extending the play" isn't a running category. So it's really 5:1 ratio of pass to run.

You completely missed the point I made. Read it over and try again.

But I think it's as simple as removing the "run threat" category for a system that doesn't value it. *shrug*

This is something to consider but could be done more effectively than cherry picking whether to add 'run threat' based on the system the QB is in. I would suggest adding more passing categories such as 'Touch (can throw fade patterns, light passes, etc), 'Velocity/strength' (can throw darts into tight spaces), 'release point' (height at which the ball leaves the QBs hand), or some combination of the above.

[Oldfan]

It makes no difference whether you consider one category of your system as technically a 'passing' or 'running' category because the final scores are still disproportionately in favor of running QBs. Running is overvalued no matter how much you make excuses that it's not. If you truly want to make this a system that values passing over running then you need to add more passing categories or remove/combine the extending plays and run threat category. It's arithmetic, not semantics.

I think the problem between us is semantics. Right now, I have four passing categories I have two categories which rely on the QB's legs as weapons. I think a 2-1 arm/legs ratio is just fine. But, I appreciate your input.

[KDawg]

You completely missed the point I made. Read it over and try again.

I don't see it. Explain what point I missed? That running plays a role in his grades, and in your opinion too big of a role? I don't disagree, which is why I suggested removing it if you don't value that number. How's that for a "try"?

This is something to consider but could be done more effectively than cherry picking whether to add 'run threat' based on the system the QB is in. I would suggest adding more passing categories such as 'Touch (can throw fade patterns, light passes, etc), 'Velocity/strength' (can throw darts into tight spaces), 'release point' (height at which the ball leaves the QBs hand), or some combination of the above.

That works too. That's on the technical side, which makes sense. But it's not as simple to grade as a "fan". But I like the approach. It's ideal to grade that way, I think.

[Hitman21ST]

I think the problem between us is semantics. Right now, I have four passing categories I have two categories which rely on the QB's legs as weapons. I think a 2-1 arm/legs ratio is just fine. But, I appreciate your input.

Can you elaborate on how much you take movement in the pocket into consideration? Not footwork for throwing, not sensing phantom pressure, but either climbing the pocket or shifting on way or another to avoid the rush?

[Oldfan]

Can you elaborate on how much you take movement in the pocket into consideration? Not footwork for throwing, not sensing phantom pressure, but either climbing the pocket or shifting on way or another to avoid the rush?

That's minimum level NFL talent. Anything below that simply fails in today's game. If you can find a QB with an exceptional arm who can't move at all, I'll consider an exception.

[darrelgreenie]

Time is affected by number of pass rushers though. A three man rush isn't going to be able to get to the QB as quick as a four or five man.

Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.

My point is that the time is the determining factor not the number of rushers.

[Hitman21ST]

That's minimum level NFL talent. Anything below that simply fails in today's game. If you can find a QB with an exceptional arm who can't move at all, I'll consider an exception.

Thank you. If you'll indulge me a follow up or two then: do you consider Skelton to have minimum level NFL talent?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

OF has proclaimed several head-scratchers on ES, so I'll add this to the list that has me laughing:

1- Norv Turner is a better head coach than Mike Shanahan :doh:

2- Jim Zorn's 2008 offense was top-10 (according to his subjective rankings)

3- Tom Brady is overrated. :confused:

You're going back at least 4 years to cherry pick 3 things he's said on ES that you disagree with just to call him out? I think many of us would have given you a a longer list of things to choose from.

[Oldfan]

Thank you. If you'll indulge me a follow up or two then: do you consider Skelton to have minimum level NFL talent?

I haven't seen much of him. He doesn't seem to have his coach's confidence. Throws a nice ball but doesn't seem to hit his targets. Backup talent probably.

---------- Post added November-20th-2012 at 12:45 PM ----------

You're going back at least 4 years to cherry pick 3 things he's said on ES that you disagree with just to call him out? I think many of us would have a longer list.

He didn't reach back very far. He pulled two of those positions out of his hiney.

[cphil006]

You're going back at least 4 years to cherry pick 3 things he's said on ES that you disagree with just to call him out? I think many of us would have a longer list.

1) I know I'm knit-picking Well, the Norv-Shanny thing stuck in my mind because we've experience Norv and he's an awful head coach.

2) The Jim Zorn thing happened last week. Even though that offense ranked near-last in total offense and scoring, OF was insistant it was a top-10 offense going by his own subjective ranking system along with another site, which he insisted was smarter. but, couldn't really provide a strong arguement.

3) He insists that an overrated Tom Brady has a great supporting cast resulting in his inflated production, yet I think most of the WRs are has-beens and the RBs are nothing great.

Those three just stick out the most because he can't back any of it up with facts, just more subjectivity supported by a skewed opinion...