Is Favre on the Mt Rushmore of QBs? (POLL)

[SkinsFTW]

You said he carried the team. I strongly disagree. I don't think he was "great" until 93. And in his two Super Bowl winning years he was surrounded by talent. It was literally all over the field.

Well if you are really 28 then you probably never saw him play before 1993 either. There is a difference between reading stats and actually watching those seasons of games played from 1986-1987 when he got them to the Super Bowl twice with nobody else worth mentioning on offense. All the talk about Dan Reeves losing it on the sideline everytime Elway ran with the ball, but what else could he do? Well, he wouldn't be in my top 4 anyway.

I'd go with Baugh, Unitas, Young, and P. Manning but that may end up being Eli Manning if he keeps playing like he has been.

[KDawg]

Well if you are really 28 then you probably never saw him play before 1993 either. There is a difference between reading stats and actually watching those seasons of games played from 1986-1987 when he got them to the Super Bowl twice with nobody else worth mentioning on offense. All the talk about Dan Reeves losing it on the sideline everytime Elway ran with the ball, but what else could he do? Well, he wouldn't be in my top 4 anyway.

You think I haven't seen film reels of John Elway? Really?

It's not hard to watch him. Go back and read all of my posts and find the context rather than comment on one point.

I said he's one of the best ever. I don't believe he's top 4. And I don't believe he was better than Steve Young, who isn't on this "mountain", either.

---------- Post added October-17th-2012 at 01:25 PM ----------

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What? Since when was on the Broncos?

I guess I mistook the question. I took it as you asking who had the same kind of impact as Elway.

If it was who had the biggest impact on the Broncos, why would it be anyone other than Elway? He was great. Just a bit overrated and not a top 4 QB in the history of the game. In my opinion.

[-9-]

“If a quarterback is judged by how many times he leads his team to a title game....how could Otto Graham not be considered the greatest player of all time?” - Paul Brown

Otto Graham quarterbacked the Cleveland Browns for 10 years...played in 10 title games....winning 7.

[Sticksboi05]

You think I haven't seen film reels of John Elway? Really?

It's not hard to watch him. Go back and read all of my posts and find the context rather than comment on one point.

I said he's one of the best ever. I don't believe he's top 4. And I don't believe he was better than Steve Young, who isn't on this "mountain", either.

I'd go with Baugh, Unitas, Young, and P. Manning but that may end up being Eli Manning if he keeps playing like he has been.

---------- Post added October-17th-2012 at 01:25 PM ----------

I guess I mistook the question. I took it as you asking who had the same kind of impact as Elway.

If it was who had the biggest impact on the Broncos, why would it be anyone other than Elway? He was great. Just a bit overrated and not a top 4 QB in the history of the game. In my opinion.

I don't think he's top 4 either. Top 10 yes.

[Sticksboi05]

Baugh and the modern QB's aren't really equal comparisons.

[KDawg]

Baugh and the modern QB's aren't really equal comparisons.

I never said anything about Baugh.

I didn't edit my post properly. That was someone else's list.

I haven't given mine yet

[Darkstarr]

He finished his career winning two back-to-back Super Bowls.

Yeah he finished winning back to back titles and was the games mvp. But he hung around to long. What a joke. To say Elway is not on Mt. Rushmore is simply incorrect. Hate him or love him, he was one of the best. He carried his teams to wins. Unlike all the other qb's u mention, Elway had no offensive help in the 80's. Heck his first probowl wr did not come until the 90's. What other qb can say that? He was throwing to bums at the wr and te spot most of his career. He did not have a Rice, Welker, Moss, Marks brother, Wayne, or Harrison. Just compare the wr's he had to everyone other qb u mention.

---------- Post added October-17th-2012 at 01:53 PM ----------

I haven't fully thought about it... But I looked up some numbers on Elway. And although he did win back to back Super Bowls, I think the guy was a little bit on the overrated side.

Athletic, uncanny ability to make reads, fearless, smart... All words that describe Elway.

But he wasn't mistake free, and crushing Favre for interceptions and letting Elway slide is an error, in my honest and humble opinion.

John Elway had a great career, so the word overrated being used here by me is moreso in line with the logic of him being a "Mount Rushmore" guy.

Elway on his career threw 300 touchdown passes and 226 interceptions.

He threw for over 4000 yards just once in 16 years.

He had just two seasons where his quarterback rating was over 90.

From 93-98 his numbers were phenomenal, but a Mt. Rushmore needs to be based on career, not a sample size. He had a 4.1% TD rate and 3.1% INT rate. He was a career 56.9% passer.

Looking at Favre's numbers quickly, Favre had a QB rating over 90 nine times. He threw for over 4000 yards six times. He was a career 62% passer. He threw TDs on 5% of his passes and INTs on 3.3%. He finished his career with 508 TD and 336 INT.

In comparison to both, Drew Brees has thrown for over 4000 yards SIX times already in his career. The same amount as Favre. He has a 5.2% TD rate. He also has a 2.7% INT rate. He's a career 65.7% passer and has a rating of 95.9 on his career.

How does Manning stack up? Manning has passed for over 4000 yards ELEVEN... Yes... ELEVEN times. He has a 5.6% TD rate and a 2.7% INT rate. He's a career 95.2 rated passer. And he's completes 65% of his passes for his career.

Brady? 5.6% of passes are TDs, 2.1% are INTs. He completes 63.9% of his passes. A career 96.4 rating. He's passed for 4000 yards only four times.

I realize these are only stats, but I'm not sure Elway belongs over a guy like Steve Young. Young: 5.6% passes resulted in TD. 2.6% of passes resulted in INT. He completes 64.4% of his passes. He's a 96.8 rated career passer. He only threw for over 4000 yards twice, however.

Stats aren't everything... But my Mount Rushmore would consist of a few things:

1 statistical guy

1 trend setter/game changer

1 playoff/super bowl stud

1 wild card

I don't see Elway as any of those things.

U have no idea. Elway was in a run first offense. from 84-90 he Had ZERO probowl talent around him NONE ZER0!!! All the other qb's offenses were built to throw the ball and surrounded with HOF talent. Plz compare who your Mt rushmore qb's had around them then tell me Elway is not on that list. 5 superbowls that is 3 more the Manning with less then half the talent Manning was surrounded with.

[KDawg]

U have no idea. Elway was in a run first offense. from 84-90 he Had ZERO probowl talent around him NONE ZER0!!! All the other qb's offenses were built to throw the ball and surrounded with HOF talent. Plz compare who your Mt rushmore qb's had around them then tell me Elway is not on that list. 5 superbowls that is 3 more the Manning with less then half the talent Manning was surrounded with.

I do have an idea. I know what offense he was in.

I don't have a list of Mt. Rushmore QBs yet. So I can't compare anything.

Elway would not be on my list, I can assure you of that.

I believe Manning's talent was overrated.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Well if you are really 28 then you probably never saw him play before 1993 either. There is a difference between reading stats and actually watching those seasons of games played from 1986-1987 when he got them to the Super Bowl twice with nobody else worth mentioning on offense. All the talk about Dan Reeves losing it on the sideline everytime Elway ran with the ball, but what else could he do? Well, he wouldn't be in my top 4 anyway.

you acting like they didnt have a good defense?

And I like how its now moved to giving Elway all the credit for getting to those super bowls, whole Reeves was the guy who held them back. He only was only the head coach, and is probably a fringe HOFer as a head coach.

I just think the Elway myth is that he came up in the right period and had those made for TV moments mixed with the explosion of ESPN and the NFL becoming the behemoth it is today.

We cant play the "what if" game, we have to talk about what really happened. In his prime, there were other QBs who were better than him. He doesnt belong a QB Mt. Rushmore, and people need to really think seriously about where they rate him. I keep saying it, but Elway was no better than Elisha, but since we see Elisha today, and he plays for the Giants, its "absurd" to say.

---------- Post added October-17th-2012 at 02:41 PM ----------

no one can really make a good case for Elway except, "look at him! look at him!"

its funny to me.

[Darkstarr]

I do have an idea. I know what offense he was in.

I don't have a list of Mt. Rushmore QBs yet. So I can't compare anything.

Elway would not be on my list, I can assure you of that.

I believe Manning's talent was overrated.

No kdawg u do not have any idea. U can watch all the film u want. The rules were differant, stats do not matter because of the ease at which u can throw the ball now, U had to be there to see it. The pounding he took was incredible. He had a nice defence, but not legendary. Then plz compare who he played with offensively with any or your "mt rushmore" qb's. The talent gap is ridiculous.

His career says it all ASF, To understand his greatness u had to have watched it. His defense was nice but not great/legendary. That defense had no HoF's on it. Yes Elway gets all the credit for getting them to the first 3 super bowls. It was his heroics that got them there. Again if u were there and watched the games u would know that.

[Botched]

In Super Bowls, Elway has a 58.1 QB rating. He's thrown more than twice as many picks as he's thrown touchdowns.

Not denying that he was a great player, but this is a guy who's legendary for being clutch. Maybe in AFC championship games...

[Darkstarr]

In Super Bowls, Elway has a 58.1 QB rating. He's thrown more than twice as many picks as he's thrown touchdowns.

Not denying that he was a great player, but this is a guy who's legendary for being clutch. Maybe in AFC championship games...

Instead of Looking up just the stats Botched, why not look up who he played with, Compare that to who he was playing against. It was all him. In the 80's he played with not a single probowl offensive skill position talent. Think about taking a team to multiple superbowls and having no help at all around u. Heck the skins of the 2000's had more talent then the bronco's he was taking to the big dance.

[SkinsFTW]

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[/color]no one can really make a good case for Elway except, "look at him! look at him!"

its funny to me.

Yet, weren't you the one saying that Doug Williams should be on it?

[SkinsFTW]

Instead of Looking up just the stats Botched, why not look up who he played with, Compare that to who he was playing against. It was all him. In the 80's he played with not a single probowl offensive skill position talent. Think about taking a team to multiple superbowls and having no help at all around u. Heck the skins of the 2000's had more talent then the bronco's he was taking to the big dance.

I was saying the same thing earlier but apparently highlight reels means they watched those games.

Well, I ran a channel on JTV last year playing all the old games from the 70s and 80s (I have most of the Redskins 82-87 +91 games) and have a ton of old Marino, Kelly, Elway, and even Stabler, Staubach, etc and yeah the NFL was totally different then. When I invited skins fans from here to watch people couldn't believe how good Theismann was and how often the offense mainly consisted of run into the OL, run into the OL, then throw the ball 30-50 yards downfield. Then people wonder how Montana had such better QB rating, lol. He was playing in a totally different offense than everybody else.

Elway spent his first 10 years running basically Martyball with nobody at all on offense. Thats why I really can't say whether Elway deserves to be on any Rushmore but he is clearly above Favre who did much less with much more. He had better stats due to playing in the WCO with real talent around him for 2 decades.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Yet, weren't you the one saying that Doug Williams should be on it?

you're damn right. First, and still only, black starting QB to ever win a Super Bowl. His play inspired your Vick's, McNabb's, Culpepper's, McNair's, Cam's Russell Wilson's, RG3's, etc. What a moment.

and he beat Elway despite being the underdog in that game by a TD.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I also poo poo that Favre had more talent on offense meme too.

Sterling Sharpe was probably the 2nd best WR in the NFL from the late 80s until his neck injury in 1994. He was the first of these physical bullies, but fast as lightning WRs that are popular today.

Sharpe retired in 1994. Favre had his best seasons in the NFL the 3 years following. Ok, ok, ok Favre had pro bowlers on offense. Fair enough, and none of those dudes did anything before and after they left Favre. Antonio Freeman, Robert Brooks (altho he had a career ending injury too), Dorsey Levens, Edgar Bennett, Mark Chumura, Bubba Franks, etc. Go through the names of skill players Favre played with and see how they fared either before or after Green Bay.

The Packers had a great defense, no doubt. But the greatness of their offense was on Holmgren and Favre.

[Botched]

Instead of Looking up just the stats Botched, why not look up who he played with, Compare that to who he was playing against. It was all him. In the 80's he played with not a single probowl offensive skill position talent. Think about taking a team to multiple superbowls and having no help at all around u. Heck the skins of the 2000's had more talent then the bronco's he was taking to the big dance.

So your only argument is that Elway's teammates sucked? That's not very convincing.

Elway himself sucked in several Super Bowls, including the first one that he won.

[thebluefood]

you're damn right. First, and still only, black starting QB to ever win a Super Bowl. His play inspired your Vick's, McNabb's, Culpepper's, McNair's, Cam's Russell Wilson's, RG3's, etc. What a moment.

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and he beat Elway despite being the underdog in that game by a TD.

While true, he had a very underwhelming career. By the time he made it to Washington, his best years were behind him. Warren Moon and Randal Cunningham were much better QBs than Doug Williams.

[GhostofSparta]

and he beat Elway despite being the underdog in that game by a TD.

So you're saying that the Redskins D holding Elway and the Broncos O to 10 points and Timmy Smith having one of the best single games of all time had nothing to do with it, it was all Williams and not his supporting cast?

FTR, I've said before I think Williams deserves a spot in the HOF for his accomplishment, but I'd still put Moon over him on this hypothetical monument.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

His career says it all ASF, To understand his greatness u had to have watched it. His defense was nice but not great/legendary. That defense had no HoF's on it. Yes Elway gets all the credit for getting them to the first 3 super bowls. It was his heroics that got them there. Again if u were there and watched the games u would know that.

it kept them in games, for goodness sakes

The whole Elway thing is just that he was the "prettiest looking" QB and had made for TV moments that people can easily reference.

Marino was a much better QB than Elway.

---------- Post added October-17th-2012 at 04:22 PM ----------

While true, he had a very underwhelming career. By the time he made it to Washington, his best years were behind him. Warren Moon and Randal Cunningham were much better QBs than Doug Williams.

I dont disagree, im just talking about the impact of that moment.

So you're saying that the Redskins D holding Elway and the Broncos O to 10 points and Timmy Smith having one of the best single games of all time had nothing to do with it, it was all Williams and not his supporting cast?

not what I said.

FTR, I've said before I think Williams deserves a spot in the HOF for his accomplishment, but I'd still put Moon over him on this hypothetical monument.

That SB moment was special. But yeah, McNabb (Elway's heir in the noughties), McNair, Moon, and a few others were better than Douglass. Not the point!

[TradeTheBeal!]

Elway was great.

Dont feed the troll.

[KDawg]

No kdawg u do not have any idea. U can watch all the film u want.

I was saying the same thing earlier but apparently highlight reels means they watched those games.

I've watched actual film (TV broadcasts) of Elway. Not highlight reels.

And Dark, do me a favor. Please. Don't comment on what I do and don't know and I won't do that to you.

We simply have a difference of opinion. And that's fine.

---------- Post added October-17th-2012 at 07:48 PM ----------

I do want to discuss his surrounding talent, though.

1986: All Pro/Pro Bowl ILB Karl Mecklenburg, All Pro/Pro Bowl DE Rulon Jones, 6 INT man Mike Harden, Pro Bowl Left Guard Keith Bishop

1987: Pro Bowl ILB Karl Mecklenburg

1989: 1,000 yard rusher Bobby Humphrey, 1,000 yard receiver Vance Johnson, Pro Bowl Kicker David Treadwell, Pro Bowl/All Pro ILB Karl Mecklenburg, Pro Bowl SS Dennis Smith, Pro Bowl NT Greg Kragen, 12 sack man Simon Fletcher, FS Steve A****er (129 tackles, 3 INT), CB Tyrone Braxton 6 picks, 9 sack man DE Ron Holmes

1997/1998: Do I really need to go over that?

1986 and 1987 were rougher years, I'd agree. But 1989, 1997, 1998 he had a ton of talent around him... You can't label the guy as having no one around him when he had something...

And again, I'm not arguing he's not one of the greatest of all time. I'm arguing he's not top 4/Mt. Rushmore.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Elway was great.

Dont feed the troll.

no one said Elway wasnt great. You are the one actually trolling here.

[Darkstarr]

When vance johnson and bobby humphy are the best he had to work with for the first 7 yrs of his career and he still went to multiple bowls, is a testament to him. Plz give me a "great" qb who worked with less and went to multiple dances? I noticed u did not mention any probowl wr's or rbs or te's. U gave me a probowl G. Really a probowl G that is what he leaned on offensively? I can see DC's up all nite worried about V. Johnson and B.H. and the probowl G.

Give me 1 qb in Elway's status of great who had less talent around him.

I agree about 96-99 It was not him. It was the Running back Shanny (for all u redskin fans that doubt his drafting) drafted, a Hof TE, a fabulous line, and an opportunistic def. U will never hear me argue Elway carried or was the most important part of those teams. He at that time was a shell of himself, but was still good enough that defences had to respect him. Basically those years, it was ok commit to shutting down TD and will still got a qb back there who has seen it all and can beat ya.

[KDawg]

When vance johnson and bobby humphy are the best he had to work with for the first 7 yrs of his career and he still went to multiple bowls, is a testament to him. Plz give me a "great" qb who worked with less and went to multiple dances? I noticed u did not mention any probowl wr's or rbs or te's. U gave me a probowl G. Really a probowl G that is what he leaned on offensively? I can see DC's up all nite worried about V. Johnson and B.H. and the probowl G.

Give me 1 qb in Elway's status of great who had less talent around him.

Is there any reason for the sarcasm? And do defenses not count as supporting casts now?