One of the Redskins BIGGEST continued failings, both sides of the ball: 3rd down conversions/ stops.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

3 additions. All saying what most have discussed ad nauseam in various other threads for WAY too many years now. 

 

Not hard is it? So WHY can't the respective coordinators see it and put their guys in a position to alter this abysmal, continued blight on one of, if not the single most important part of a game of football?

 

For as much as I want the career average Haslett gone yesterday, there's still a LOT of question marks over the OC who is HIGHLY over rated and valued by many IMHO. Bright, inventive O mind no question. But he often leaves a LOT to be desired in a LOT of circumstances. 

 

Hail. 

[steve09ru]

My biggest issue defensively on 3rd downs is that it seems we rarely bring a ton of heat and drop at least 1 of (if not both) Kerrigan and Rak into coverage.  It seems we rarely dial anything up but when we do, I feel there is great success.

 

Offensively, the struggles are a mixture of calls, execution, correct reads.  There are times where the calls are head scratchers but a lot of the time I feel the execution, reads are at fault.  WR's aren't getting the separation they need and when they do it seems like the throw is a tad off which causes a delay in the YAC.  There are also a number of missed open receivers where the ball in going elsewhere.

 

But overall, yeah, 3rd down is and always has been a problem.  Not a good one at all.  Do you know what Kyle's numbers on 3rd look like with Houston?

[RG3Hunna]

Nice Thread Gibbs!!!!

 

Personally on offense I don't blame Kyle's coaching instead I think our 3rd down efficiency will improve when we fix our RT spot. On 3rd down you're forced to drop back and pass and when you have a turnstile at RT in polumbus it doesn't allow you as a coach or QB to feel confident in drawing/executing a play that can complete the 3rd and long. 

 

We need to fix that RT spot badly in my opinion.

 

On the defensive side of the ball I've finally come to the conclusion haslett has got to go and I've been one of hasletts main supporters but unfortunately someone has to be the scapegoat and haslett would be my first choice for the "sacrifice". lol 

 

Only reason why i'm not blaming kyle is because his QB isn't himself, he's underthrowing/overthrowing and missing open WR's simply because the knee isn't allowing him to plant properly. If Drew Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers weren't themselves as well they would make their coaches look bad too, I mean look at Phillip Rivers last year he was a mess and now look at him this year he's back to Phillip Rivers lighting the league on fire again. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

 ..... But overall, yeah, 3rd down is and always has been a problem.  Not a good one at all.  Do you know what Kyle's numbers on 3rd look like with Houston?

 

Now isn't this interesting upon checking up. 

 

In 2008, the Texans ranked joint 10th league wide in third down efficiency at 42 %. (83/ 197.). The following year, they dropped a few spots to 15th, but still with a 40 % efficiency mark. (82/ 204.). I can't find the third down run to pass ratio without going through the individual gamelogs; but over the season in total downs Houston ran the ball 41.7 % of the time in '08, and 43.8 % of the time in '09. (Which is about his overall average here 42 % run to 58 % pass.). 

 

So he averaged 41.1 % third down success rate in Houston. A considerable increase on the 33. 9 % here. 

 

Why is that I wonder? Better players? Kubiak's influence and scheme? Why has it dropped considerably in DC?

 

Hail. 

[steve09ru]

Only reason why i'm not blaming kyle is because his QB isn't himself, he's underthrowing/overthrowing and missing open WR's simply because the knee isn't allowing him to plant properly. If Drew Brees, Brady, Manning, Rodgers weren't themselves as well they would make their coaches look bad too, I mean look at Phillip Rivers last year he was a mess and now look at him this year he's back to Phillip Rivers lighting the league on fire again. 

 

I'm not saying Kyle's to blame either (see GHH above for #'s with Houston and my opinion already) but the issue is the same as it was last year when RG3 was playing well.  Last year, he threw at a 7-10%+ difference on 3rd downs (less than 60%) vs. 1st and 2nd downs.  He also had his legs to use more last year but we still struggled on 3rd down conversions.  Some of it is that we may rely too much on YAC but some also look to be RG3 (whether it be the line not holding up and forcing him to throw off target or not) but it does seem to be consistent in that when it is a passing situation and RG3 has to throw then the numbers dip tremendously.  Again, not saying who or what is at fault but just that RG3's development needs to progress better as a pocket passer (and he has shown some improvement).

[TSO]

I'm not here to get into an argument about Kyle Shanahan. I just want to stake my claim on this topic and let it be known where I stand because, as I see it, this thread is more about second guessing Kyle after the fact than anything substantial and it was already proven wrong after last season's success. While the third down issues are real, they have a lot less to do with the O coordinator than what is posited in this thread.   

 

Kyle Shanahan is not overrated. In fact, he's severely underrated by the OP and a few others around these parts. Fortunately, the majority here see Kyle as the great offensive mind he is, especially after his offense changed the entire NFL last year. There were a few of us backing Kyle when no one wanted to in 2010 and 2011 because he had guys like Anthony Armstrong and Jabar Gaffney running open, and it was obvious the scheme was the only thing working but the QBs and talent around them weren't.   

 

  He's one of the best O coordinators in the league and, when he has the talent, will have the offense he runs in the top five every year. I believe he doesn't run the ball that much because defense's are keying in on it right now and refuse to let Morris beat them, instead they're correctly assuming that Robert has to be the guy to beat them and that he won't be able to.   

 

The failings of our offense on 3rd down right now have more to do with a young QB not fully accustomed to the NFL passing game who is still developing (and developing well, might I add) and an Oline built for the ZBS.

 

Previously, it was due to a massive lack of talent at the skill positions on offense as well as a still developing Oline. I'd love to see how anyone would've done running an offense with our personnel in 2010 and 2011.  

 

So, again, I just wanted my name here to be attached to Kyle's. I'm a big believer in his ability as an O coordinator and think that, once again, a lot of people will look foolish for questioning him once Robert is back to being himself and we actually have the cap space to improve the personnel.     

[IrepDC]

I think our playcalling is a bit too predictable. We seem to come out with run, run, pass a LOT on 1st, 2nd, 3rd down. Defenses have figured that out.

[darrelgreenie]

The hallmark of a good coach isn't what they can do when they have superior talent its whether or not they can get the best out of the talent they have.

Kyle did a good job of that last year. But, if we're being honest that was his first really good year as OC.

The 3rd down conversion woes have been persistent since he's been OC with/without talent.

And IIRC the much hated Zorn/Sherman playcalling duo were better on the 3rd downs then Kyle with remarkable less talent across the board.

It is a real issue.

 

Sub-

We're pointing out real tangible decisions that Kyle makes not talking in abstract big picture claim like Kyle is good OC when he has talent.

Which of the issues that have been pointed out do you disagree with?

[darrelgreenie]

For me the biggest issue I have is the offense hasn't changed much from last year except by running true read-option less.

But the benefit of using the pistol comes from the use of read option.

 

Why are the formations condensed or bunched as opposed to spread? Spread the formations takes defenders out of the box and makes it harder to defend read-option or even base run plays.

 

Why didn't he move the pocket more in the first few games?

Why didn't he run the ball more in the first few games?

Why call no read plays like a WR screen on 3rd down?

(Prior to injury) Why not use Reed and Fred on the field together?

Why not throw more run after the catch routes routes like the slant? As opposed to stationary or stop routes like hitches and comebacks?

Why not read-option on 3rd and short?

etc..etc..etc...

[TSO]

The hallmark of a good coach isn't what they can do when they have superior talent its whether or not they can get the best out of the talent they have.

Kyle did a good job of that last year. But, if we're being honest that was his first really good year as OC.

The 3rd down conversion woes have been persistent since he's been OC with/without talent.

And IIRC the much hated Zorn/Sherman playcalling duo were better on the 3rd downs then Kyle with remarkable less talent across the board.

It is a real issue.

 

Sub-

We're pointing out real tangible decisions that Kyle makes not talking in abstract big picture claim like Kyle is good OC when he has talent.

Which of the issues that have been pointed out do you disagree with?

 

Well, that's where you're wrong, dg. It's not just "tangible decisions" that's being pointed out, which is what triggered my post. It's been said numerous times how "overrated" Kyle is and how he leaves "A LOT TO BE DESIRED IN A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCES". That wasn't further elaborated on and so I didn't think I needed to go into too many details on how I felt about that as well. What are those many circumstances? What is to be desired so much?

 

That's what I was responding to... thought I was clear about that, but I guess not.

 

And, I agree... he could certainly be better on third down. The offense as a whole can be. That being said, I think the biggest issue we have on 3rd down are not a matter of playcalling and more about the passer, the scheme and the talent in general on offense. It's just how I feel about it.

 

And what I mean by scheme is the ZBS... that we have smaller Olinemen who aren't the best at just protecting the passer in a standard drop back situation, which is what a lot of those 3rd and 6+ situations amount to.   

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

You made the darn point yourself by saying he was one of the best OC's in the league. 

 

A guy that has in reality achieved nothing thus far in his career. It could well be argued that Houston was all down to Kubiak and his scheme. So to make such a sweeping statement on one year in reality just exemplifies the point your apparently so offended by tso. 

 

If that's not highly overrating someone just because he happens to be one of ours, I don't know what is. 

 

But that's getting off topic so we'll leave well enough alone shall we?

 

Hail. 

[TSO]

For me the biggest issue I have is the offense hasn't changed much from last year except by running true read-option less.

But the benefit of using the pistol comes from the use of read option.

 

Why are the formations condensed or bunched as opposed to spread? Spread the formations takes defenders out of the box and makes it harder to defend read-option or even base run plays.

 

Why didn't he move the pocket more in the first few games?

Why didn't he run the ball more in the first few games?

Why call no read plays like a WR screen on 3rd down?

(Prior to injury) Why not use Reed and Fred on the field together?

Why not throw more run after the catch routes routes like the slant? As opposed to stationary or stop routes like hitches and comebacks?

Why not read-option on 3rd and short?

etc..etc..etc...

 

I may be wrong, but I thought we did a lot more spread the first two weeks than ever before. I almost feel like we went away from it because the WRs just weren't playing as well as we had envisioned coming into the season. 

 

But that's just what I was seeing... not sure at all. 

You made the darn point yourself by saying he was one of the best OC's in the league. 

 

A guy that has in reality achieved nothing thus far in his career. It could well be argued that Houston was all down to Kubiak and his scheme. So to make such a sweeping statement on one year in reality just exemplifies the point your apparently so offended by tso. 

 

If that's not highly overrating someone just because he happens to be one of ours, I don't know what is. 

 

But that's getting off topic so we'll leave well enough alone shall we?

 

Hail. 

 

It wasn't "just one year", though I felt that what happened last season proved it without a doubt. At least to me it did. 

 

I also mentioned how open he got receivers within the scheme from previous years. Receivers who aren't even worthy of being on most other teams and, if they are, are 5th or 6th string.

 

But, yeah, I didn't want to get into an argument about Kyle. I just wanted to make a statement on how I feel about him because of some of those statements you made there. We shall see who ends up right... let's both hope I am, since that's a win for us.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

As we're noting for the record so to speak I also said back there in the bump and in numerous other threads what a bright, young, innovative offensive mind he is. That doesn't preclude examination of what he gets wrong. 

 

But regardless, like anyone else we employ, I sincerely hope he turns out to be a World beater. Of that you'll get NO disagreement. 

 

Hail. 

[gortiz]

as far as 3rd down conversions go ... I can't remember a Skins team that had so many 3rd and longs. I thinking of going back to our game books and see how many we have had. 

 

Our inability to get yards on 1st and 2nd is killing us. 

 

On a side note, has this team run one draw this year and have we run more than 2-3 screens? Not of the bubble variety. 

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

as far as 3rd down conversions go ... I can't remember a Skins team that had so many 3rd and longs. I thinking of going back to our game books and see how many we have had. 

 

Our inability to get yards on 1st and 2nd is killing us.....

 

31 third downs of 6 yards or longer through 4 games. (19 of 5 yards or less.), Good and pertinent point leading to just how bad the O has been from everyone concerned in putting us in this position on third and long.

 

Hail. 

[RedskinsInFebruary]

Greg Cosell, Oct 10 @ 01:03

Q:Any Idea why the Redskins are so bad on 3rd dwn?

 

The pass rush is pushing our OL back into Griffin's comfort zone too quickly. 

[darrelgreenie]

Everything being discussed here falls under the control of the offensive coordinator.

You heap praise upon Kyle but when you compare our 1st half offense to most others in the league any honest/objective assessment clearly shows an offense that is struggling.

We have good offensive players. Kyle just needs to get it done.

This whole I'm right/ your wrong bit is a waste of time. Lets talk football not fall into typical Internet forum argument.

-hail

[darrelgreenie]

I shouldnt be jealous of the level of execution watching the Browns and Bills run their respective offenses

[gortiz]

31 third downs of 6 yards or longer through 4 games. (19 of 5 yards or less.), Good and pertinent point leading to just how bad the O has been from everyone concerned in putting us in this position on third and long.

 

Hail. 

 awesome, GHH, thanks for looking that up. 

 

I mean, you can't be successful when almost half of your 3rd downs are of the "long" variety ... 

 

I'm still of the thinking that our inefficiency on O, especially on 3rd, has been a major contributor to our sluggish start. 

[TSO]

Everything being discussed here falls under the control of the offensive coordinator.

You heap praise upon Kyle but when you compare our 1st half offense to most others in the league any honest/objective assessment clearly shows an offense that is struggling.

We have good offensive players. Kyle just needs to get it done.

This whole I'm right/ your wrong bit is a waste of time. Lets talk football not fall into typical Internet forum argument.

-hail

 

This is ridiculous. The point is the struggles CAN be considered out of the control, at least somewhat, of the coordinator. To not take into account injuries, personnel and circumstance is incredibly foolish. It's something you've done when it has benefited your argument. You know, like when you want to point out just how awful Tyler Polombus is and, when anyone says he's not as bad as you claim, you say "the scheme masks his deficiencies". Who's making those schemes? And when the way around the issue is to use the legs of your star QB more often, and your star QB is not the same guy, isn't somewhat understandable that it's a bit tougher? 

 

Yeah, God forbid we take into account anything else. "Everything falls under the control of the Offensive coordinator" all of a sudden. 

 

My point wasn't about whether or not Kyle could do better. I said he could myself. I think I made it clear, if not the first time, then when I first replied to you, that I was simply focused on the blanket statements of Kyle being "overrated" and that he "leaves a LOT TO BE DESIRED IN A LOT OF CIRCUMSTANCES". 

 

In your hypocrisy, you had no problem with those statements, even though they're not really "football related". I mean, what exactly is football related, dg? I need to know so I can never transgress the bounds of "football related discussion" DG has set. I'm not allowed to point that out because it's not about football, yet others can?     

 

You know, I never give a crap about being right or wrong. I couldn't care less how I'm viewed on here. But how many times have I seen from certain posters here the complete opposite? This is EXACTLY WHAT TRIGGERED MY RESPONSE. How many times, when they're just being negative or skeptical of the majority of things in general, that when the team/coaches/players they're skeptical about struggle they all of a sudden pop out and say "see, I've been saying this to anyone who'd listen?"

 

And now you're trying to call me out on that when me being right here is a win for all of us? I'd hate to be wrong here not for me, but for all of us as Skins fans. That should be a notable difference, especially if it's "not about being right or wrong" as so many claim.   

 

Seriously, dg, you didn't need this post. There's a reason why you felt the need to post it, even after GHH and I agreed to move on. Even after I responded to another post of yours and kept it about the questions you asked. If you just wanted to "move on", well, guess what? We already did. But you knew that.  

 

That'll be my last post here. You and GHH can pile on if you'd like. 

[darrelgreenie]

 lol 'in my hypocrisy' i don't know the point of your post. I'm not 'calling you out' i don't do that and if I was it would be clear. Look; you can do whatever you want, but in response to your post to me I ask you to keep it football. If you have a problem with other posters take it up with them. And if you don't care about the right/wrong claims then why keep harping on it?  

[redskins59]

Based on all the stills I have seen, the problem is that the QB is still learning. Virtually all third down stills seem to indicate that someone is always wide open.

Rg3 did not come from a system where a QB had to make multiple reads. RG3 will get better though.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Being as we have all the cold hard data up-to-date, and trends within that; I think I shall follow both situations for the rest of the season in the same vain and see where we end up again. And what, if anything, finally changes. 

 

Hail. 

[darrelgreenie]

Although not directly about 3rd downs:

 

I try to pay extra attention to the opening ~15 plays and/or 1st possension ability to move the ball/score.

Imo those are hallmarks of well coordinated teams.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Although not directly about 3rd downs:

 

I try to pay extra attention to the opening ~15 plays and/or 1st possension ability to move the ball/score.

Imo those are hallmarks of well coordinated teams.

 

Hate to bring the name up around these parts, but Norval springs instantly to mind in being brilliant at scripting the first 15 plays or so as an OC. 

 

Just falls apart when he has the added responsibility of everything to oversee.

 

Hail.