Would Kyle Shanahan add spread/zone read plays into the offense?

[s0crates]

The problem was mine. I didn't understand that ESPN was melding shotgun w/ one back + Qb under center w/ one back into "one back set." Seem kinda dumb to do it that way if the idea is to give stats breakdown of formations.

Ah I see, a shotgun with no halfback or fullback is technically a one back set.

[KDawg]

Ah I see, a shotgun with no halfback or fullback is technically a one back set.

Not necessarily. Depends who you ask. Some people view the QB in the gun as an ace back formation, because of things like the wild cat. Others don't count the QB because of their role traditionally as a "thrower". Technically, the QB has always been a back. Especially in wild cat sets. I think ESPN counts the QB as a back. Some coaches do not.

[Darth Tater]

Not necessarily. Depends who you ask. Some people view the QB in the gun as an ace back formation, because of things like the wild cat. Others don't count the QB because of their role traditionally as a "thrower". Technically, the QB has always been a back. Especially in wild cat sets. I think ESPN counts the QB as a back. Some coaches do not.

Technically, a spread type shotgun has no QB:ols:

[Rabsuz]

I hate the zone read plays, they never work. I hope we don't add one play of that college garbage to the playbook. If we are going to run gimmicks I would rather just run the pistol all day, maybe bring back the air raid/run and shoot offense of the 90's NFL.

[KCClybun]

I hate the zone read plays, they never work. I hope we don't add one play of that college garbage to the playbook. If we are going to run gimmicks I would rather just run the pistol all day, maybe bring back the air raid/run and shoot offense of the 90's NFL.

Um...Cam Newton?

Tim Tebow?

Hello? Bueler? Bueler?

And no offense, but you were barely alive in the days of the run and shoot.

[KDawg]

Technically, a spread type shotgun has no QB:ols:

If you're going by the wing T and other types of old school sets, you'd be correct. The QB has evolved, though, and the spread has a QB now. Some still like to stick with the old school way of labeling it, though

[darrelgreenie]

The evidence that QBs pass more efficiently from the shotgun is overwhelming. So, if any coach thought they could run from the shotgun just as effectively as they do with the QB under center, they would damn sure be trying it rather than coming out with the QB under center.

Again I'm not sure about 'as effectively' part that question remains to be answered.

But, many college teams are running it effectively enough to allow shotgun to become their primary formation.

And when you add the element of the QB as runner it instantly increasing the potential for success because of the numerical advantage provided by the QB as a runner.

Back to the running from shotgun..it reminds me of your thread about what is the next innovation for NFL offenses.

Running from the spread is already a reality in college and has already begun in the NFL.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8230ef31/article/gun-control-teams-need-balance-out-of-popular-formation

The question today is what teams are really building a quality run game from shotgun? Seattle had a major breakthrough this past weekend when they flew across the country and beat the Giants. Eleven of the Seahawks' 35 snaps out of shotgun were run calls, or 31.4 percent, which is more than double the league average. Seattle's game plan looked like a page torn from the Bills' old 'K-gun' playbook. The Seahawks ran for 73 yards on those 11 carries. A 6.6 rushing average is something other teams should envy.

The Patriots always seem to be ahead of the curve when it comes to innovative strategies, and against the Jets they ran the ball eight times from shotgun for 44 yards and two touchdowns. The Vikings employed the shotgun 16 times Sunday, but five of those calls were runs that averaged 7.4 yards a carry.

I have another link saved at home that I'll post later.

I mentioned earlier about the Lions running 64% of their offense from shotgun (they finished at a whopping 68%) my guess is they had to run from gun to maintain the ability to use that much gun.

I don't have the numbers from the Panthers but they used the shotgun a lot and ran the ball effectively.

[Darth Tater]

If you're going by the wing T and other types of old school sets, you'd be correct. The QB has evolved, though, and the spread has a QB now. Some still like to stick with the old school way of labeling it, though

Actually, I'm going by the field positions as defined by the originator of the shotgun spread. Well, the guy who first ran it in college: Dutch Meyer with Sammy Baugh (although the TCU spread did run better with Davey O'Brien).

Dutch's Normal:

Dutch Meyer spread:

Evidence also indicates that this spread goes back to 1908.

[KDawg]

Actually, I'm going by the field positions as defined by the originator of the shotgun spread. Well, the guy who first ran it in college: Dutch Meyer with Sammy Baugh (although the TCU spread did run better with Davey O'Brien).

Dutch's Normal:

Dutch Meyer spread:

Evidence also indicates that this spread goes back to 1908.

Darth, I believe I said, "old school sets". Which would include anything that involves Sammy Baugh. But I love the diagrams

[Oldfan]

Again I'm not sure about 'as effectively' part that question remains to be answered.

But, many college teams are running it effectively enough to allow shotgun to become their primary formation.

And when you add the element of the QB as runner it instantly increasing the potential for success because of the numerical advantage provided by the QB as a runner.

Back to the running from shotgun..it reminds me of your thread about what is the next innovation for NFL offenses.

Running from the spread is already a reality in college and has already begun in the NFL.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8230ef31/article/gun-control-teams-need-balance-out-of-popular-formation

I have another link saved at home that I'll post later.

I mentioned earlier about the Lions running 64% of their offense from shotgun (they finished at a whopping 68%) my guess is they had to run from gun to maintain the ability to use that much gun.

I don't have the numbers from the Panthers but they used the shotgun a lot and ran the ball effectively.

The running game is not going to be effective out of the shotgun unless the QB can be effectively used as a rusher.

Unlike college, the NFL plays a 16 game season and a top-notch QB-passer can play 13-15 years. NFL teams will not typically use their QBs as rushers because of injury concerns. Moreover, it takes not just a great passer, but a super athlete to pose that kind of double threat. So, what the colleges are doing out of the gun is not relevant.

I think the shotgun is the future in the NFL, but there will be a tradeoff expected in the form of lower running game efficiency.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

One thing I've learned reading football books is that nothing is new. Everything has been done. Everything can work if executed correctly.

[Rabsuz]

Um...Cam Newton?

Tim Tebow?

Hello? Bueler? Bueler?

And no offense, but you were barely alive in the days of the run and shoot.

Most of the time Tebow and Cam run for like 2 yards, once out of every 10 times do they get anything worthwhile on a zone read run, and just because I wasn't alive for the run and shoot doesn't mean I can't appreciate it through like watching it on youtube and NFL network with Moon and the Oilers. I wasn't even alive for the Redskins last superbowl, I was born during the 1992 season when we were reigning champions, still can appreciate Redskins greats from that time period along with NFL history because that's what real Redskins fans do.

[KCClybun]

Most of the time Tebow and Cam run for like 2 yards, once out of every 10 times do they get anything worthwhile on a zone read run...

Cam Newton averaged 5.6 yards a run, and Tim Tebow averaged 5.4 a run, and ran for 704 yards and 660 yards. Obviously there's scrambles factored in, but the zone/read worked, at least for those two.

[darrelgreenie]

The running game is not going to be effective out of the shotgun unless the QB can be effectively used as a rusher.

Unlike college, the NFL plays a 16 game season and a top-notch QB-passer can play 13-15 years. NFL teams will not typically use their QBs as rushers because of injury concerns. Moreover, it takes not just a great passer, but a super athlete to pose that kind of double threat. So, what the colleges are doing out of the gun is not relevant.

I think the shotgun is the future in the NFL, but there will be a tradeoff expected in the form of lower running game efficiency.

I think you're ignoring the fact that some NFL offenses already run effectively from the gun, even offenses that don't feature a runner at QB.

Further, not all college spread offenses feature running QBs but most good college spread offenses run effectively from the gun.

I agree that the shotgun could be the future on the NFL but only if it can sustain an effective running game.

[Oldfan]

I think you're ignoring the fact that some NFL offenses already run effectively from the gun, even offenses that don't feature a runner at QB..

I haven't seen compelling evidence of that. Which team has shown that it can consistently run effectively from the shotgun over a significant time span?

[darrelgreenie]

I haven't seen compelling evidence of that. Which team has shown that it can consistently run effectively from the shotgun over a significant time span?

You have me on the 'over a significant time span' but that's not what I'm saying.

I'll admit that I can't show evidence of that because the focus on running from the shotgun is a fairly new development in the NFL.(on the college level its common place)

And its hard to find stats that isolate runs from the shotgun; heck its hard enough to find stats on how much teams are actually in the shotgun.

But, using Kirwan article as a jump off point (and my own eye which you may or may not trust) I would say that Patriots, Packers, Seahawks, Lions and Bills are teams that don't have a scrambling QB that can still run effectively from the shotgun.

And going forward as defenses adjust to the shotgun passing attacks sustaining an effective running game from the shotgun will be essential to keep defenses off balance.

---------- Post added April-3rd-2012 at 07:33 PM ----------

Mike is not likely to have his QB spend a lot of time in the shotgun. Let's remember that his offense starts with the ZBS running game which isn't compatible with the gun. I can't imagine him letting go of that idea anytime soon. Those lighter, athletic O-linemen are not ideal body types for blocking for the pocket passer either.

Looking back I didn't respond to the first part of your post.

I agree that Mike wouldn't put his QB in the shotgun a lot.

But, when Jeremy Bates was the playcaller Mike gave him the freedom to put Cutler in the gun a lot in 2008.

Part of that I'm sure was by neccesity being that most of their RBs that year got injured for long stretches (some ended up on IR).

I'm sure Mike allows Kyle that same freedom and Kyle has already shown some spread and shotguns looks in this offense.

And although you have to take anything Mike S. says as coachspeak he said:

"That’s what you’re doing during the offseason," Shanahan said. "Regardless of who your personnel is, you’re studying what other teams do, maybe new things that people might put into an offense, defense or special teams that are just outside the box, that you haven’t looked at.

"That’s part of what we do in the offseason, study other teams. We get a gameplan, regardless if it’s a wide receiver, new guy, a tight end. Obviously with a quarterback, take a look at his skills and what he does best and hopefully give him that type of offense."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/mar/30/contrary-mcnabbs-belief-shanahan-vows-tailor-redsk/

“I worked for Mike all those years, and whatever we have, we’re going to find a way to make him successful,” Kubiak said. “Mike is very capable of being flexible and doing what a player does best. I’m sure if he ends up taking him, he’s going to study that portion of the offense he has run.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/redskins-watch/2012/mar/27/former-shanahan-coordinator-says-rg3-going-fit-per/

I'm looking forward to seeing how this offense will look next year and what effect, if any, Griffin will have on the use of formations and playcalling.

i.e could we see more shotgun spread?

Being that Griffin comes from a spead shotugn I'm hoping that element of the offense will be expanded this season.

^^And that's coming from a guy that loves the running game.

But at the same time if the offense were to return to a more balanced/traditional run-first Denver/Houston boot-swap roots I'm certain that Griffin could excell in that too.

[Oldfan]

DG ~ I would say that Patriots, Packers, Seahawks, Lions and Bills are teams that don't have a scrambling QB that can still run effectively from the shotgun.

Sorry, I disagree on that. I don't think any of those teams have shown enough to get excited about. Bear in mind that the use of the shotgun in the NFL is common on thrid and long, so running the ball against defenses playing soft will result in deceptive stats.

The shotgun formation with the RB standing next to the QB looks useless to me. The Pistol makes more sense. The Pistol RB can get a quick start in three directions and can be used as runner or receiver equally well. He presents a bona fide coverage problem.

I'm sure Mike allows Kyle that same freedom [as Jeremy Bates]and Kyle has already shown some spread and shotguns looks in this offense.

And although you have to take anything Mike S. says as coachspeak he said:

As you said, Mike had a weak running game in 2008. He also had to pass more to outscore his opponent since his defense couldn't stop anybody. Kyle didn't have a running game in Houston either, so there was a higher pass to run ratio than ideal for the scheme.

In Mike's scheme, the zone stretch is like the Green Bay Sweep was to Lombardi. That's the foundation. Then he wants the QB to boot off that. There's no reason in the world for him to change that until the league stops it.

Yes, he wants to adapt somewhat to his QB, but he has ten other starters that were selected to run HIS scheme. What do you do with them if you make major scheme adjustments for your QB?

I can't see Mike making drastic changes in what he's doing until defenses strategically solve his running game.

I'm not really sold on the value of the ZBS, but Mike is.

[darrelgreenie]

As you said, Mike had a weak running game in 2008. He also had to pass more to outscore his opponent since his defense couldn't stop anybody. Kyle didn't have a running game in Houston either, so there was a higher pass to run ratio than ideal for the scheme.

In Mike's scheme, the zone stretch is like the Green Bay Sweep was to Lombardi. That's the foundation. Then he wants the QB to boot off that. There's no reason in the world for him to change that until the league stops it.

Many people see Mike S. and Kyle S. as the same.

But, from what I've seen they are very different playcallers.

So if there was change it wouldn't be Mike changing it would be Kyle because he is the OC/playcaller.

Its hard for me to dismiss Kyle's pass/run ratio in Houston as being due to a lack of running game.

Juding from what I've seen here I wonder how much the lack of a running game self induced?

Yes, he wants to adapt somewhat to his QB, but he has ten other starters that were selected to run HIS scheme. What do you do with them if you make major scheme adjustments for your QB?

I don't see using more spread as major adjustment more of an expansion on a theme.

Expanding concepts that already exsist in the offense or adding a few wrinkles isn't drastic enough negatively impact the rest of the team.

Kyle already using some shotgun and some empty spread sets similar to Baylor's base passing sets.

The team would simply have to learn it, the same way the learned the offense when Kyle came aboard.

I can't see Mike making drastic changes in what he's doing until defenses strategically solve his running game.

To me Kyle's pass/run playcalling tendencies are a change from the traditional Mike S. Denver WCO playcalling and I don't think the change was caused by the defenses solving the running game last year.

I think his playcalling tendencies are a reflection of who he is as a playcaller.

Maybe Griffin will usher in a return to the more run balanced boot-swap play-action?

[darrelgreenie]

I expect the core offense/formations and playcalling balance will remain unchanged and Griffin's own ability will raise the level of execution and add more playmaking.

But, I hope and feel there is potential for so much more.

I think Griffin would be good in just about any offense an OC can come up with.

[Lavarleap56]

I expect the core offense/formations and playcalling balance will remain unchanged and Griffin's own ability will raise the level of execution and add more playmaking.

But, I hope and feel there is potential for so much more.

I think Griffin would be good in just about any offense an OC can come up with.

Everyone is kinda right in this debate. Mike and Kyle are already planning on ADDING to the offense they already have. Get ready for more Spread concepts than kyle already runs.

[RWJ]

Everyone is kinda right in this debate. Mike and Kyle are already planning on ADDING to the offense they already have. Get ready for more Spread concepts than kyle already runs.

Thus, the acquistions of both Garcon and Morgan.

[darrelgreenie]

Everyone is kinda right in this debate. Mike and Kyle are already planning on ADDING to the offense they already have. Get ready for more Spread concepts than kyle already runs.

Griffin comes from a spread, Kyle's offense has some spread formations and concepts.

They made upgrading the WRs corps a major offseason focus.

Given Kyle's penchant towards the pass going more spread seems logical; time will tell.

[Chris Worthy]

Get ready to see how fluid the roll out plays will become with RG3 back there. With quick/agile O-linemen and speedy wide outs its going to be scary good.

[KDawg]

Everyone is kinda right in this debate. Mike and Kyle are already planning on ADDING to the offense they already have. Get ready for more Spread concepts than kyle already runs.

I'm not sure why this conclusion wasn't just logically deduced. Of course we're going to go to spread concepts. It's Griffin's forte and its where he's most comfortable at this point in his career, having been in that system at Baylor. We'll keep the under center stuff as well.

[Oldfan]

I'm not sure why this conclusion wasn't just logically deduced. Of course we're going to go to spread concepts. It's Griffin's forte and its where he's most comfortable at this point in his career, having been in that system at Baylor. We'll keep the under center stuff as well.

I don't see how anyone can logically deduce that Mike Shanahan will incorporate spread concepts to the extent that Carolina did for Cam -- which was the question posed in the OP.