KDawg Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Would Kyle have drafted Cam? Of course not, he already had his man crush QB in the shape of John Beck! Kyle's glowing endorsement of Beck last season tells you everything you need to know about Kyle and QBs. That or he didn't want to alienate the teams current QBs because he knew Newton wouldn't be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yeah, because drafting RG3 but not Cam makes a ton of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yeah, because drafting RG3 but not Cam makes a ton of sense. Don't know if your being sarcastic but RG3 and Cam don't really compare. Hopefully, RG3 is a better version of Andy Dalton or Kevin Kolb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jflow78 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Glad someone said it so I didn't have to.Oddly enough, Kyle Shanahan (for all the crap he gets about not adjusting to the talent he has) HAS adjusted........ I only read as far as this post because it's the truth. Everyone likes to give Kyle ****, but not for the right reasons. When McNabb was here we did a TON of screens, which was exactly what McNabb wanted (but must have forgotten that since he's a ******* dbag and feels necessary to lie through his teeth on TV). As NLC said, he adjusted the offense for Rex (who actually bothered to learn the plays). He'll adjust for RG3. Actually, I think there will need to be very little adjustments for RG3, except to make special use of Griffin's great athleticism. Also, dumb *** McNabb said RG3 wasn't good for rollouts, why hasn't anyone bothered to ask by Mc**** head doesn't know that. It's a more relevant question, IMO. (possibly because he doesn't watch football or do any research before he opens his mouth) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Spread offense, more athletic than the average QB, can ad lib. How do Griff and Cam not compare? Size? C'mon, The only big difference you can draw is the character questions. Cam had a bunch, but Griff doesn't have any. Talent wise, they're both way above the average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Spread offense, more athletic than the average QB, can ad lib. How do Griff and Cam not compare? Size? C'mon,The only big difference you can draw is the character questions. Cam had a bunch, but Griff doesn't have any. Talent wise, they're both way above the average. For one thing, the spread offenses that Cam ran at Auburn and the spread offense run by RG3 are different. Auburn's spread was much more zone-based while Baylor's is veer based. Cam is more of what Tebow would be if Tebow could pass. In college, Kolb ran the exact same offense that RG3 ran and the spread that the TCU spread and Briles' spread have similarities (especially in the screen game). By the way, I don't know why Dalton seemed to get less praise than Cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 For one thing, the spread offenses that Cam ran at Auburn and the spread offense run by RG3 are different. Auburn's spread was much more zone-based while Baylor's is veer based. Cam is more of what Tebow would be if Tebow could pass. In college, Kolb ran the exact same offense that RG3 ran and the spread that the TCU spread and Briles' spread have similarities (especially in the screen game). By the way, I don't know why Dalton seemed to get less praise than Cam. None of what you're describing makes Cam undraftable for the Shanahan offense. Nobody here is talking about drafting either Dalton or Griffin. We're talking about Cam/Griffin. There is nothing about Cam as a passer that would be undesirable to the Shannahans. RG3 is a lot more accurate than Cam, but as far as QB traits go, they have a lot of similarities and Cam would have been accurate enough to draft. Lets not skew the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 None of what you're describing makes Cam undraftable for the Shanahan offense. Nobody here is talking about drafting either Dalton or Griffin. We're talking about Cam/Griffin. There is nothing about Cam as a passer that would be undesirable to the Shannahans. RG3 is a lot more accurate than Cam, but as far as QB traits go, they have a lot of similarities and Cam would have been accurate enough to draft. Lets not skew the argument. Didn't ever say that Cam would not be drafted by us. I was just commenting that the fact we are going to draft RG3 does NOT imply that we would have drafted Cam as you seem to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 DG, Did some detailed look and it doesn't look like a zone read. Looks more like something to set up boot action from a spread. It does indicate that it wouldn't take a lot of work to implement it since the only guys do anything different would be the running back and the QB (RG3 would already know what he needs to know though). Scatching head.Why doesn't it look like zone-read to you if the only people that would have to do anything different are the RB and QB? As I said in my previous post it was probably a designed run. But, even if it was a designed run to set up a boot-action pass; a zone read wouldn't look any different. The zone-read, tackle trap, bootleg are all complementary plays in a spread-zone offense. They look the same. But I digress. The larger point is that ,at a minimum, the bare bones concept exists within the current offense. Although used very, very sparingly last year, these are the types of formations and plays we could see more often if they go in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Didn't ever say that Cam would not be drafted by us. I was just commenting that the fact we are going to draft RG3 does NOT imply that we would have drafted Cam as you seem to believe. And you have yet to reason as to why Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Doesn't look like a zone/read to me. Just looks like a run from shotgun. I guess the basic concept is sort of vaguely the same, but I doubt John had any responsibility on that play outside of "hand the ball off". Lots of teams have runs out of the gun like that; doesn't make it a zone/read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 By the way, I don't know why Dalton seemed to get less praise than Cam.Remember you asked....Cam set a bunch of NFL records along the way to being a better passer then Dalton: http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=DAL659900&player2=NEW693984&player3=null&player4=null&position=quarterback&playerOne=Andy+Dalton&playerTwo=Cam+Newton&playerThree=Select+a+Player...&playerFour=Select+a+Player... 4051 passing yards (yet only had 1 more pass attempt) higher comp %, higher ypa, higher passer rating then there was his rushing accomplishments 706 rushing yards 51 rushing 1st downs 14 rushing TDs (rookie record) Cam accounted for 35 TDs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Remember you asked....Cam set a bunch of NFL records along the way to being a better passer then Dalton: http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=DAL659900&player2=NEW693984&player3=null&player4=null&position=quarterback&playerOne=Andy+Dalton&playerTwo=Cam+Newton&playerThree=Select+a+Player...&playerFour=Select+a+Player... 4051 passing yards (yet only had 1 more pass attempt) higher comp %, higher ypa, higher passer rating then there was his rushing accomplishments 706 rushing yards 51 rushing 1st downs 14 rushing TDs (rookie record) Cam accounted for 35 TDs 4 win team to a 9 win playoff team in a division that was one of the best in the NFL and includes Pittsburgh and Baltimore. Games were against some of the best defenses. 2nd round pick. So, I still wonder why Dalton gets almost no praise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Doesn't look like a zone/read to me. Just looks like a run from shotgun. I guess the basic concept is sort of vaguely the same, but I doubt John had any responsibility on that play outside of "hand the ball off". Lots of teams have runs out of the gun like that; doesn't make it a zone/read. I think dg's point was that it looks like a zone read. And it does. Because that's exactly what zone read looks like in QB/RB action. It's also what it looks like in oline steps. The only difference in a zone read is if the QB sees the end crash too wide or too narrow, he can keep it. Otherwise the plays are the exact same. I doubt Beck was actually running zone read here. But it's the exact same look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 4 win team to a 9 win playoff team in a division that was one of the best in the NFL and includes Pittsburgh and Baltimore. Games were against some of the best defenses.2nd round pick. So, I still wonder why Dalton gets almost no praise. Team success seems like a rather arbitrary means of measuring individual QB performance.Neither Cam Newton nor Andy Dalton play defense or special teams. And around mid-season there were people out there making a case for Dalton as rookie of the year. So I don't think its accurate to say that Dalton got almost no praise. But I think if you look objectively at what each QB could control I think its fairly obvious why Dalton got less praise. Although Dalton was good he was not record breaking good. Cam's ultra-productive rookie season has set a new bar for rookie QB production. ---------- Post added March-31st-2012 at 01:17 PM ---------- I wish I could find the stats for league wide formation and personnel use, especially shotgun. I know the Lions lead the league in shotgun at a whopping 64% And that the league as a whole uses the shotgun 38% up from 16% in 2005.* http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7066850/nfl-teams-detriot-lions-increasingly-rely-shotgun-formation Its ironic that as the league moves more toward spread offense concepts the actual spread QB prospects still receive criticism from many of the draft media 'experts'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri_Skins_Fan Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I would love to see a formation where RG3 is in a shotgun. Helu is the RB next to him. Fred Davis @ TE on the strong side. Chris Cooley as an H-Back on the weak side. With Moss & Garcon split out wide. Like this, except the 2nd wr (H-Back Cooley) to the left & is more inside. Garcon runs a 20 yrd post Cooley runs out to the flat (left side) Freddy runs a 10 yrd PostFlag Moss runs a 7 yard hook Helu runs a playaction, then up the middle and sits at about 5 yrs. This would allow RG3 to roll to either side & find at least 2 options on that side on each 1/2 of the field. Or otherwise..take off if need be. I can't wait for football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Well... It would allow our QB to find options downfield... If our center and RT weren't downfield as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Mike is not likely to have his QB spend a lot of time in the shotgun. Let's remember that his offense starts with the ZBS running game which isn't compatible with the gun. I can't imagine him letting go of that idea anytime soon. Those lighter, athletic O-linemen are not ideal body types for blocking for the pocket passer either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Mike is not likely to have his QB spend a lot of time in the shotgun. Let's remember that his offense starts with the ZBS running game which isn't compatible with the gun. I can't imagine him letting go of that idea anytime soon. Those lighter, athletic O-linemen are not ideal body types for blocking for the pocket passer either. You could still run normal ZBS out of gun, but the back's alignment gives a lot away. You could put two backs in the backfield and scissor them and it would work. There are ways, but you need to get more creative with how you run it, which shouldn't be difficult for a NFL team to accomplish. Best way to run zone out of the gun is zone read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 You could still run normal ZBS out of gun, but the back's alignment gives a lot away. You could put two backs in the backfield and scissor them and it would work. There are ways, but you need to get more creative with how you run it, which shouldn't be difficult for a NFL team to accomplish.Best way to run zone out of the gun is zone read. The signature plays are the zone stretch and the play action boot off that. Are you saying you could do that from the gun with equal efficiency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 The signature plays are the zone stretch and the play action boot off that. Are you saying you could do that from the gun with equal efficiency? Did I say that? Signature plays or not, you could execute boot action passes off of zone action fairly easily. Put the ball in the back's chest, pull away and roll out. It wouldn't be the same as our wide zone boots from under center, which I'm sure we'll utilize. But our offense doesn't have to change if we go into gun from an ace formation. My issue with your statement is simple: Let's remember that his offense starts with the ZBS running game which isn't compatible with the gun. That's the exact quote from above. Saying zone isn't compatible with gun is a complete and utter fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Did I say that? You said: You could still run normal ZBS out of gun. I'm asking what you meant by that. Does "normal" include the most effective plays (signature) in the scheme?...Saying zone isn't compatible with gun is a complete and utter fallacy.It isn't a fallacy if by the word "compatible" I was thinking of the ZBS as it is being run now, equally effective, with the signature plays included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I'm asking what you meant by that. Does "normal" include the most effective plays (signature) in the scheme? You said, again: Let's remember that his offense starts with the ZBS running game which isn't compatible with the gun Which says nothing about stretch. You brought that up afterwards. It isn't a fallacy if by the word "compatible" I was thinking of the ZBS as it is being run now, equally effective, with the signature plays included. I was going based on what you said. If your intention was that the stretch action boot couldn't be run as effectively out of gun, I'd agree. But you can run the ZBS (a VERY general term) from the gun effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I hope he adds a lot of "Spider Three Y Banana" but makes sure RGIII does not force the ball to Venus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 You said, again: Which says nothing about stretch. You brought that up afterwards. I was going based on what you said. If your intention was that the stretch action boot couldn't be run as effectively out of gun, I'd agree. But you can run the ZBS (a VERY general term) from the gun effectively. I would not have guessed that I would need to explain to you in advance that the effectiveness of Shanahan's "ZBS running game" relied upon the stretch and the boot off it as their bread and butter plays. I was not asserting that a half-assed running game with zone aspects could not be run from the shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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