How does this rookie class of LB's compare to years past? (Updated 29 DEC 2011)

[SF49erFaithful]

Sacks are drive killing plays. FFs are GAME changing plays. Not to mention his INT for TD. DROY is rewarded the the top rookie defensive player, not the top defensive rusher. As of now, Kerrigan has the more impressive stat line.

I don't think you understood my post at all. If you did then you wouldn't be comparing Miller's sack total to Kerrigan's FF total....

And Von Miller's job is to rush the passer. That is the capacity of his position. That would be like me vouching for Cam Newton as OROY, and you justifying your disagreement with, "OROY is awarded to the best rookie offensive player, not the best passer".

[BlueinBuf]

Greg Jones - Not impressed

Jaquan Williams(sp?) - somewhat impressed

[cnhnyy]

where were you Kerrigan fans before Miami game? Now that he got two sacks and FF against Matt Moore and awful dolphins and he is better than Von Miller? "FF are game changers?". The last time I checked redskins lost 9-20.

I am not hating Kerringan but he pretty much disappered from week 2 to week 8 with O sack. This is not a DROY performance.

[Hitman21ST]

I don't think you understood my post at all. If you did then you wouldn't be comparing Miller's sack total to Kerrigan's FF total....

And Von Miller's job is to rush the passer. That is the capacity of his position. That would be like me vouching for Cam Newton as OROY, and you justifying your disagreement with, "OROY is awarded to the best rookie offensive player, not the best passer".

That's wrong. Broncos run a 4-3. The OLB's job in a 4-3 is not limited to rushing the passer. An OLB in the 3-4 has more of a responsibility to rush the passer than in a 4-3. Kerrigan has more tackles, more forced fumbles, and is better in coverage. He is the better player, and more deserving of DROY. Your argument is strictly "more sacks." Mine is "better player." You can't be seriously arguing that your trump card is that Miller has three more sacks than Kerrigan, then ignore more tackles, more forced fumbles, more INTs, and more TDs for Kerrigan. That's laughable.

---------- Post added November-15th-2011 at 02:16 PM ----------

where were you Kerrigan fans before Miami game? Now that he got two sacks and FF against Matt Moore and awful dolphins and he is better than Von Miller? "FF are game changers?". The last time I checked redskins lost 9-20.

I am not hating Kerringan but he pretty much disappered from week 2 to week 8 with O sack. This is not a DROY performance.

Wow, I didn't know Kerrigan had two forced fumbles and three sacks in week one, to go along with his INT and TD.

[sportjunkie07]

i think the 11' draft class was pretty good at LB compared to previous years. the 12' draft looks awesome at ILB. i really think we are walking away with one of hightower, keuchly, te'o, or burfict.

kerrigan should most definitely be in the running for droy. i know miller has a few more sacks, but i cant imagine he's been playing better overall than kerrigan. ive never seen a redskin's player come in and do so well, so fast. the tackles for a loss, which havent even been mentioned by most, are really nice to see.

[schmitty_199]

The pick six was not "right place at the right time." It was an outstanding play from an outstanding player. He sheds a cut block, swats the pass, catches it, and scores. To say it was "right place at the right time" is insinuating that any OLB could have made that play, which isn't true.

Manning threw it right him and the ball happened to fall right into his arms. I've seen much less athletic guys and below average players make a very similar plays. Not to say it wasn't impressive, because it was, but you seem to be insinuating that pick means he's better in coverage thus it would be a "travesty" if Miller got the award over him. That one play doesn't at all make him a lock for the award.

And I repeat, did you see what Patrick Peterson did to Maclin last week? A very strong case can be made he deserves it over Kerrigan or Miller. He's changed more games for the Cardinals then either player has for their teams IMO.

[Hitman21ST]

Manning threw it right him and the ball happened to fall right into his arms. I've seen much less athletic guys and below average players make a very similar plays. Not to say it wasn't impressive, because it was, but you seem to be insinuating that pick means he's better in coverage thus it would be a "travesty" if Miller got the award over him. That one play doesn't at all make him a lock for the award.

And I repeat, did you see what Patrick Peterson did to Maclin last week? A very strong case can be made he deserves it over Kerrigan or Miller. He's changed more games for the Cardinals then either player has for their teams IMO.

He has to shed the block, deflect the pass, and catch it. Hardly "happened to fall into his arms"

[TheLongshot]

Not to derail the thread, but Rak has to be a legit threat, otherwise teams wouldn't worry about him and focus strictly on Kerrigan. That Rak is such a threat makes Kerrigan even more of one.

Yeah, you got to realize that Rak goes against the other teams' best OL every week, and he's doing about as well as Kerrigan. Certainly there is room for Rak to improve, but he's still pretty damn good.

[Drew_Fl]

The one thing Peterson has that others don't is that he has decisively won 2 games with PR TD's (not including a 3rd return TD). That's not even starting with the position he plays 99% of the snaps. Kerrigan's pick 6 swayed momentum big-time and definitely helped win that game, but otherwise he hasn't influenced games to the magnitude as Pat Pete.

I'd still vote Kerrigan though.

[sportjunkie07]

The one thing Peterson has that others don't is that he has decisively won 2 games with PR TD's (not including a 3rd return TD). That's not even starting with the position he plays 99% of the snaps. Kerrigan's pick 6 swayed momentum big-time and definitely helped win that game, but otherwise he hasn't influenced games to the magnitude as Pat Pete.

I'd still vote Kerrigan though.

havent most of his game changers been punt or kick returns for TD's? i dont think that should be taken into consideration.

i thought he was the best player in last year's draft and im happy he is doing so well.

[Hitman21ST]

The one thing Peterson has that others don't is that he has decisively won 2 games with PR TD's (not including a 3rd return TD). That's not even starting with the position he plays 99% of the snaps. Kerrigan's pick 6 swayed momentum big-time and definitely helped win that game, but otherwise he hasn't influenced games to the magnitude as Pat Pete.

I'd still vote Kerrigan though.

True, but Punt Return TDs don't (or shouldn't) go into consideration for DROY. Special Teams Rookie of the Year, Special Teams Player of the Year, Returner of the Year, sure. But not DROY. :2cents:

[schmitty_199]

He has to shed the block, deflect the pass, and catch it. Hardly "happened to fall into his arms"

Manning throws it right at him. He does a good job getting his hands up, and the angle and power of the ball happened to have it fall right into his arms. You were talking about the play as if it proves some edge over Miller that Kerrigans so much better in coverage. If that's not your angle, then ok, we can drop it. I just don't see this play being such a difference between Miller and Kerrigan that it's a "travesty" if Kerrigan doesn't win it.

And I believe punt returns should factor into DROY a little bit. The award in no way should be based around that, but I think it's unfair to take it away from a players body of work. Punt return is basically the 4th down defense. Even if we don't take those TD's into consideration Peterson still has a case for DROY. He's had an excellent season in coverage in one of the tougher positions to adjust to in the NFL. Since # of tackles seems to be important in this thread, Peterson only has 3 less then Kerrigan.

[Stophovr6]

Manning throws it right at him. He does a good job getting his hands up, and the angle and power of the ball happened to have it fall right into his arms. You were talking about the play as if it proves some edge over Miller that Kerrigans so much better in coverage. If that's not your angle, then ok, we can drop it. I just don't see this play being such a difference between Miller and Kerrigan that it's a "travesty" if Kerrigan doesn't win it.

I disagree. Hitman forgot one important part of that play, Kerrigan had to locate the ball. How many times have you seen a lineman bat the ball and look around for the ball and never locate it? He looks around and finds the ball, so many players that don't have good instinct are not able to track those balls and end up not catching them even when they would've "fallen into their arms." He doesn't just tip the ball up and find it in his arms when it comes down. It was a great play.

Also, that play is designed that way. The tackle is supposed to be makiing a lane for Eli to throw the ball. Eli didn't throw it right at him because that was some sort of mistake. If you want to make the argument that Mackenzie put forth a poor effort on cutting Kerrigan I might give that to you.

I'm not here to argue Kerrigans coverage skills over another player.

[SF49erFaithful]

That's wrong. Broncos run a 4-3. The OLB's job in a 4-3 is not limited to rushing the passer. An OLB in the 3-4 has more of a responsibility to rush the passer than in a 4-3. Kerrigan has more tackles, more forced fumbles, and is better in coverage. He is the better player, and more deserving of DROY. Your argument is strictly "more sacks." Mine is "better player." You can't be seriously arguing that your trump card is that Miller has three more sacks than Kerrigan, then ignore more tackles, more forced fumbles, more INTs, and more TDs for Kerrigan. That's laughable..

LOL! Dude, are you reading my posts? Because you're rebutting an argument I didn't even make. My argument is "strictly more sacks"? Look at my post. I specifically said, "Von Miller is having a better rookie year not because he has more sacks".

And congratulations, you have a basic and simple understanding of the difference between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense. Here is a cookie:

Forgive the pun, but you know defenses aren't always so cookie-cutteresque in their schemes? Many mold unique hybrids, or provide roles for certain players that transcend what their position on the depth chart may say. Ever heard of an elephant linebacker? That's an example. Hell, being a fan of the skins you should know Cooley isn't just a TE. Von Miller similarly is utilized into a more unique role that allows him to play in space and rush the passer. He lines up at DE in nickel situations too, which hardly any "43" OLBs do. In fact, Julian Peterson is the last 43 LB I can think of who did that.

Von Miller is having a better rookie year. His ability to rush the passer gives him the edge. And no, it's not those 3 more plays (sacks) that give him the edge. Being a better pass rusher in general, as I'm sure you know, puts more pressure on the QB and forces them to make bad decision or just throw the ball away. It's also laughable you say Kerrigan is better in coverage, because I bet you are basing that off of his 1 INT advantage....that came from a batted ball, or from the "game tape" you've watched. lol.

Also, here's an interesting note. Of Kerrigan's 5 sacks, 4 came against Miami, St. Louis, and Arizona, 3 of the worst 5 teams in the NFL. Miller, meanwhile, has piled up sacks against Green Bay, San Diego, Oakland, Tennessee, Cincy, and KC. So not only has Miller been more consistent (not lumped up as much), he has been doing it against better competition. And he's knocked a couple balls loose too, which you seem to ignore, as you claim he only gets recognition b/c of sacks.

Whatever makes you sleep at night, man. But it's honestly laughable how you try to cherry pick things not just to say Kerrigan is deserving of the reward, but that Miller receiving it would be a "travesty". Then again, homers are an important part of every fan base, I suppose.

[Hitman21ST]

LOL! Dude, are you reading my posts? Because you're rebutting an argument I didn't even make. My argument is "strictly more sacks"? Look at my post. I specifically said, "Von Miller is having a better rookie year not because he has more sacks".

You said "he's better because he's rushing the passer better...that's the capacity of his position."

That's all well and good. Kerrigan has shown to be almost as much of a threat rushing the passer, but an overall that's what makes him a more deserving candidate. You are singling out one aspect of the position, and because he does that better than Kerrigan, you are saying he has more of an impact. Meanwhile, Kerrigan is better in literally every other aspect of the position. Nevermind that Kerrigan is getting pressure about as much as Miller is, as well as everything else he does.

You can't arbitrarily discount stats because they came against certain teams or they don't fit your argument. Kerrigan has been the better player all around. There's no denying that. If you want to compare just rushing the passer, you have a point. But as a player overall, Kerrigan has the edge.

[schmitty_199]

You said "he's better because he's rushing the passer better...that's the capacity of his position."

That's all well and good. Kerrigan has shown to be almost as much of a threat rushing the passer, but an overall that's what makes him a more deserving candidate. You are singling out one aspect of the position, and because he does that better than Kerrigan, you are saying he has more of an impact. Meanwhile, Kerrigan is better in literally every other aspect of the position. Nevermind that Kerrigan is getting pressure about as much as Miller is, as well as everything else he does.

You can't arbitrarily discount stats because they came against certain teams or they don't fit your argument. Kerrigan has been the better player all around. There's no denying that. If you want to compare just rushing the passer, you have a point. But as a player overall, Kerrigan has the edge.

Actually, there is. At this point it is all opinion, and your implying yours or others sharing your opinion are the only ones that matter.

[SF49erFaithful]

You said "he's better because he's rushing the passer better...that's the capacity of his position."

That's all well and good. Kerrigan has shown to be almost as much of a threat rushing the passer, but an overall that's what makes him a more deserving candidate. You are singling out one aspect of the position, and because he does that better than Kerrigan, you are saying he has more of an impact. Meanwhile, Kerrigan is better in literally every other aspect of the position. Nevermind that Kerrigan is getting pressure about as much as Miller is, as well as everything else he does.

You can't arbitrarily discount stats because they came against certain teams or they don't fit your argument. Kerrigan has been the better player all around. There's no denying that. If you want to compare just rushing the passer, you have a point. But as a player overall, Kerrigan has the edge.

Um, no Kerrigan hasn't shown to be almost as good at rushing the passer. He has piled up sacks against the worst teams in the NFL and still falls fairly short of Miller in that regard. And what stats am I discounting? You are the only one turning a blind eye. The fact is that Kerrigan has put up numbers against ****ty teams, not Miller. That's not cherry picking, or "arbitrarily discounting stats". That's putting them in context.

Also, if we're basing this completely on stat lines -- which you seem to hellbent on doing -- why does Kerrigan get the benefit of the doubt, but not Miller? You say Kerrigan is "getting pressure about as much as Miller is" when he has 3 sacks less thus far into the season, but is clearly superior to Miller in other aspects when he has THREE MORE TACKLES and 2 more FF. Double edged sword much?

Love how you ignored the rest of my post too. That just makes it obvious you can't refute those points. Honestly you would've been better off not responding at all. I think it's clear to everyone without rose-colored glasses on that you're grasping at straws here.

[wilco_holland]

What is more impressive to me is the amount of LB´s who can switch to a 3/4 LB without the camp and stuff. I thought an Aldon Smith and Kerrigan would have a much harder time with that transition.

[ArmchairRedskin]

No chance a CB wins DROY without a bunch of picks. A CB has only won the award 5 times since 1967. It almost always goes to a DE or an LB. I'd say its mostly a sack driven award. Von Miller is balling out. I wanted us to get him last year, but Kerrigan has surprised. He's better than I thought he'd be. Von is more natural standing up. I saw a tweet by Football Focus, I think, that KC kept leaving Miller unblocked and he kept wreaking havoc. I think thats the second time I read that about him, that a team is leaving him unblocked. Still, though, dude is as good as advertised. If he keeps up his pace, he's gonna win the award.

[jpyaks3]

What is more impressive to me is the amount of LB´s who can switch to a 3/4 LB without the camp and stuff. I thought an Aldon Smith and Kerrigan would have a much harder time with that transition.

Well to be fair Aldon Smith isn't really playing much base defense, we are just turning him loose in the nickel and he plays a lot as a down lineman. He is still having a great year rushing the passer in the limited time he has gotten in.

[Hitman21ST]

Um, no Kerrigan hasn't shown to be almost as good at rushing the passer. He has piled up sacks against the worst teams in the NFL and still falls fairly short of Miller in that regard. And what stats am I discounting? You are the only one turning a blind eye. The fact is that Kerrigan has put up numbers against ****ty teams, not Miller. That's not cherry picking, or "arbitrarily discounting stats". That's putting them in context.

Also, if we're basing this completely on stat lines -- which you seem to hellbent on doing -- why does Kerrigan get the benefit of the doubt, but not Miller? You say Kerrigan is "getting pressure about as much as Miller is" when he has 3 sacks less thus far into the season, but is clearly superior to Miller in other aspects when he has THREE MORE TACKLES and 2 more FF. Double edged sword much?

Love how you ignored the rest of my post too. That just makes it obvious you can't refute those points. Honestly you would've been better off not responding at all. I think it's clear to everyone without rose-colored glasses on that you're grasping at straws here.

You made one point in the post that I "ignored," and then backed it up with a lot of examples. Why do I need to address each individual example?

To make you happy: Kerrigan is almost as good as Miller at getting pressure and sacks. Miller is almost as good as Kerrigan at forcing fumbles. Kerrigan is a more rounded player, as he is used in coverage (and he is good at it) and Miller is not by your own admittance by saying that the "capacity of his position is to rush the passer."

You want to talk about giving the benefit of the doubt? Kerrigan rushes the passer a lot less than Miller, being that he's asked to drop into coverage a lot more than Miller. Logically, then, Kerrigan's sack numbers are proportionally better than Miller's.

By the way, you can't put an asterisk on Kerrigan's sack numbers (which is what you're trying to do) based on the teams they play. You can only play who's on your schedule.

Kerrigan has been the better all-around player, which is why he should win the award.

[schmitty_199]

An article from PFF.. Feel it fits well into this discussion.

Race for Rookie of the Year: Battle for No. 3

November 16th, 2011 | Author: Khaled Elsayed

Watch out guys, it’s that time of the year where you’re slated to hit the dreaded rookie wall.

Well at least we should be. It turns out that quite a few of the 2011 class aren’t so much interested in hitting the rookie wall, as they are as smashing through it. These are strange times we’re living in.

You won’t be surprised with who the top two are right now (although one of them is clearly pulling away in our eyes). Instead, it’s the battle for the positions below them that is providing the most interesting contest. Two members of our top five had days they’d rather forget while a couple of offensive weapons are catapulting themselves onto the list.

All that and more in our Race for Rookie of the Year!!!

1. [1] Von Miller, OLB, Denver Broncos, +34.7 (554 snaps)

When Miller first burst onto the scene I wondered if he might be just a flash in the pan. Now I’m starting to realize he was simply getting warmed up. Miller has now picked up 40 combined sacks, hits and hurries while earning a +13.9 grade in run defense. He is special.

2. [2] Cam Newton, QB, Carolina Panthers, +26.1 (627 snaps)

That was not his best performance of the year against a good Titans defense. He’s firmly entrenched in second place though. Newton will need another one of his superman performances to start catching up to Miller.

3. [5] Tyron Smith, RT, Dallas Cowboys, +10.1 (603 snaps)

Smith has yet to have a perfect game in pass protection but the win over Buffalo marked the sixth time this year he’s given up just a single pressure. That’s impressive for any tackle, let alone a rookie who was supposed to be raw. Smith looks ideally suited to a role on the left side one day.

4. [3] Andy Dalton, QB, Cincinnati Bengals, +13.6 (581 snaps)

So Mr Dalton, let’s see how this works. I wax lyrical about you and then you put in a poor performance? That hardly seems fair, although the Steelers defense is one almighty mitigating circumstance.

5. [4] Marcell Dareus, DT, Buffalo Bills, +9.9 (437 snaps)

Dareus really didn’t look good against Dallas. There is a minor concern here in that he seems to either have really good games, or really ‘meh’ ones.

6. [-] DeMarco Murray, RB, Dallas Cowboys, +8.0 (240 snaps)

You can’t ignore Murray any longer with that quite frankly ridiculous 6.7 yards per carry average. He’s earned his yards as well and already has our sixth highest rushing grade on the year. Take a backseat Felix, this kid is getting it done.

7. Jurrell Casey, DT, Tennessee Titans, +9.3 (357 snaps)

The more you see of Casey the more you have to like of him. He won’t get much recognition because he’s not a pass rusher. His impact in the running game though, where he is second amongst all defensive tackles in defensive stops, is huge.

8. [9] Aldon Smith, OLB, San Francisco 49ers, +10.7 (298 snaps)

Not enough people are talking about Aldon Smith who added five more hurries to his season tally against the Giants. That’s 30 combined quarterback disruptions (sacks, hits and hurries) and he’s done it all in a situational role. Simply impressive.

9. [8] A.J. Green, WR, Cincinnati Bengals, +5.1 receiving (553 snaps)

Green can’t block and he also gives up too many penalties. You can learn to deal with that though when he makes a skyline touchdown grab like he did against the Steelers.

10. [-] Denarius Moore, WR, Oakland Raiders, +4.3 receiving (426 snaps)

Who knew that the biggest benefactor from Carson Palmer going to Oakland would be Moore? They seem to have hit it off from the outset and Moore is rapidly turning into the kind of weapon defenses can’t stop.

Dropping Out

Adrian Clayborn, DE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers: There’s no hiding it from us. Clayborn had a very poor game against Houston. While contributing no pass rush, he struggled to make impact in run game and gave up two penalties.

Jabaal Sheard, DE, Cleveland Browns: It has been too long since he wowed me … or anyone else, for that matter.

Five To Watch

Richard Sherman, CB, Seattle Seahawks: Against Baltimore he was almost beaten deep a couple of times by Torrey Smith but he rebounded with another fantastic display. Sherman is an upgrade on Marcus Trufant already.

Marcus Gilbert, RT, Pittsburgh Steelers: Gilbert gave up two sacks but nothing else to the Bengals. As can be the case with Big Ben, a tackle will have a higher ratio of pressure to sacks given the quarterbacks propensity to try and make plays.

J.J. Watt, DE, Houston Texans: The former Badger is a disruptive player in the run game. He is a perfect complement to Antonio Smith who is much more adept at getting to the QB.

Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Washington Redskins: On a day when the offense struggled, Kerrigan picked up some pressure on Marc Colombo.

Akeem Ayers, OLB, Tennessee Titans: Ayers looked good when given the chance to rush the passer against Carolina.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/11/16/race-for-rookie-of-the-year-battle-for-no-3/

[Tom [Giants fan]]

The Giants have several promising rookie LB'ers. Williams and Lewis were drafted while Herzlich and Paysinger were free agents.

[pjfootballer]

Awards are for the players, not fans. I could care less. The only trophy I want bragging rights about is when my team holds up a Lombardi. Kerrigan will get some votes, but I think at this point someone else will win it. Your teams winning has alot to do with awards evern if someone wouldn't admit it.

[schmitty_199]

Awards are for the players, not fans. I could care less. The only trophy I want bragging rights about is when my team holds up a Lombardi. Kerrigan will get some votes, but I think at this point someone else will win it. Your teams winning has alot to do with awards evern if someone wouldn't admit it.

Very true. Example: Wares 20 sack 6 FF season in 2008. Dallas had a very average team, and Pittsburgh was excellent, so Harrison(16 sacks 7 FF) won it. Not that Harrison wasn't a deserving winner, but he decisively beat Ware in voting. Difference? Team success. (Just an example, lets not derail the thread into who should of gotten it)

A factor that goes against Kerrigan, although the rest of the top contenders aren't exactly on playoff teams either.