HogsHaven: A Look at All 9 Sacks by the Bills Against the Redskins

[JerseyGator]

I wish someone in the media would review the quality of OLines Rex has had in front of him in Chicago and D.C. From what I've seen it's has been quite bad. In Chicago in 2007, they had a horrendous running game and the oldest OL in the league. A QB can only do so much. Most are turnover machines when they feel pressured like Rivers last night.

[Swift]

When you give up 9 sacks, there's enough blame to go around for everyone. Beck needs to get rid of the ball quicker and step up in the pocket to avoid pressure. The receivers need to get separation. The O-line and RB need to block better, and be more effective running the ball. And Kyle needs to call better plays. The 9 sacks aren't on any one person, they're on the entire offense.

[GO HAMSKINS]

Dude ... you've got 40 posts defending Beck in this thread alone. That's literally 20% of the posts so far.

I recommend less sugar on the crunchberries.

I understand you have some type of man crush on Rex so I take what you say with a grain of salt.LOL it's quite amusing honestly.Stop speaking form your rectum and I will respect what you have to say take it easy

---------- Post added November-1st-2011 at 04:49 PM ----------

No running game? Hightower was averaging 5+ a carry against Carolina.

Hyperbole isn't helping the discussion. No one is suggesting that the OL is not vital to success or that we shouldn't address it in the future. Most posters are simply suggesting that QB is a larger hole than OL at the moment. While our OL is poor some, not all, of their deficiencies could be covered by better QB play. A QB that is capable of feeling pressure and moving in the pocket, or getting rid of the ball whether it is to a reciever or out of bounds could both limit the sacks we give up.

Qb? So what happens when we draft a QB and it doesn't workout? I'll tell you

He will suck for a while then you will say "He's a rookie give em more playing time" then the next thing will be people calling him a bust and others saying its our Oline and WR's. Smh when will this fanbase wake up?

[ginsu101]

When you give up 9 sacks, there's enough blame to go around for everyone. Beck needs to get rid of the ball quicker and step up in the pocket to avoid pressure. The receivers need to get separation. The O-line and RB need to block better, and be more effective running the ball. And Kyle needs to call better plays. The 9 sacks aren't on any one person, they're on the entire offense.

Nicely put. It is a coach's job to put the player in the best situation possible by playing to their strengths. The fact of the matter is that Beck is in now. Is the coaching staff putting him in the best opportunity to be a QB. This goes for the entire offense. On Torrain's first game back, he appeared to have instant down hill speed. He didn't this past week. Perhaps the Bills were keying on him and shutting down the run. At that point, I would like to have seen a few screens. We fans love to give one person the blame, but this was a total group effort in losing.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Qb? So what happens when we draft a QB and it doesn't workout? I'll tell you

He will suck for a while then you will say "He's a rookie give em more playing time" then the next thing will be people calling him a bust and others saying its our Oline and WR's. Smh when will this fanbase wake up?

then you draft another one. then another one. then another one. then another one.

guess what we do after that? heres a hint.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

According to Pro Football Reference, sack percentage is more correlated to individual QBs (vs their team) than any other QB stat they analyzed. They looked at QB stats and considered which stats are most attributable to the QB vs those with greater share of team / coaching factors. The basis for the analysis was looking at what happens to a QB's stats when a QB changes teams.

In descending order of correlation, these stats are:

1. Sack Percentage: +0.31
   
2. Completion Percentage: +0.25
   
3. Yards Per Attempt: +0.20
   
4. Touchdown Percentage: +0.12
   
5. Interception Percentage: +0.10
   

Sack percentage checks out on top, primarily because those quarterbacks who were good at avoiding sacks tended to remain good at avoiding sacks.

This says that a QB is most responsible for his sack percentage and least responsible for his INT percentage, on average, vs team factors or random variation.

As an example, Peyton Manning threw 28 INTs as a rookie, but took only 22 sacks. In retrospect, Manning gets credit immediately for the low sacks, and less blame for the INTs, which were more due to team factors (bad team).

Conversely, Beck's high sack percentage as a Redskin and as a Dolphin are certainly about him, more than the team. You can make the argument that he's 0-6 in part because of the surrounding team (debatable), but the sacks are on him. The evidence for this is Rex's relatively low sack percentage, in addition to Pro Football Reference's analysis.

[GibbsFactor]

Agreed. Beck doesn't have it. He should have started the season so we'd have hope next year.

[skins25]

while I agree we need another QB...

I am not going to use 20/20 hindsight vision and diagnose Beck's sack totals based on what we know now...

If you have pressure off the edge and the guy has a clean run at you, you have to begin to move, at that moment you don't know if your blocker is going to be able to keep him at bay for another half second.

You look at all the photos and they all look like Beck has time...other than the fact THE LINE IS COLLAPSING around him. Having some room to follow through and having a good path to stride into is important in being able to deliver a strong down field pass. Beck didn't have it. His center is in his face and we are running 10-15 yd timing routes.

[Skinsfan4life83]

While our OLine needs to improve, in its current state it is much more of a strength than the QB position is. Beck was responsible for many of those sacks not so much the OLine.

Beck holds the ball too long, doesn't go through his progressions, doesn't read a defense. He looks scared to death out there. By contrast Rex doesn't hold the ball as much as Beck does, Rex goes through his progressions, but sadly Rex also cannot read a defense. Pressure doesn't seem to bother Rex as bad either. However Rex is not the answer because of his mental lapses and overall carelessness with the ball.

The offense has no energy right now. And that starts with the QB.

[skinny21]

You are right but it seems to me that there are too many people here to get all over Rex Grossman when he was running for his life and throwing INT's but when Beck is in there it is the same thing except he takes a sack instead of getting rid of it anywhere. I thought Beck was the more mobile of the two but Beck got sacked more than Rex. So if you are trying to defend Beck over Grossman. Don't because he isn't any better. If you are blaming the O-Line then I agree with you. Anyone playing Qb behind it is going to get destroyed.

I agree with you. The only thing I'll say about Beck is that he could improve, whereas I don't really see Grossman having potential to grow. This is really the only reason I want Beck out there. He looked terrible this game (though he is only one of the problems), but perhaps he can get better. I'm guessing that he'd have a lot more support if he were 25.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Agreed. Beck doesn't have it. He should have started the season so we'd have hope next year.

if our offense looks like this for the next 9 games, we will lose all 9 games. that shouldnt even be debatable. we just lost by 23, we lost by 13 the week before, we lost by 7 week before that. we're getting worse on offense each week.

honestly i see us maybe winning 1 more game this year as a lucky bounce game where we win by a FG. 4-12 is definitely bad enough for a top 5 pick.

[GibbsFactor]

if our offense looks like this for the next 9 games, we will lose all 9 games. that shouldnt even be debatable. we just lost by 23, we lost by 13 the week before, we lost by 7 week before that. we're getting worse on offense each week.

honestly i see us maybe winning 1 more game this year as a lucky bounce game where we win by a FG. 4-12 is definitely bad enough for a top 5 pick.

So I should bet on the 9ers beating us by 30? Cool.

No, by some messed up scenario, we will beat the 9ers this week. Coming east, who knows. Skins won't lose out, we aren't that Lucky.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

So I should bet on the 9ers beating us by 30? Cool.

No, by some messed up scenario, we will beat the 9ers this week. Coming east, who knows. Skins won't lose out, we aren't that Lucky.

lol, theyre only favored by 3.5 right now, which is nuts considering how bad we've been.

[Laxpunk2006]

I understand you have some type of man crush on Rex so I take what you say with a grain of salt.LOL it's quite amusing honestly.Stop speaking form your rectum and I will respect what you have to say take it easy

---------- Post added November-1st-2011 at 04:49 PM ----------

Qb? So what happens when we draft a QB and it doesn't workout? I'll tell you

He will suck for a while then you will say "He's a rookie give em more playing time" then the next thing will be people calling him a bust and others saying its our Oline and WR's. Smh when will this fanbase wake up?

Where in the NFL rulebook does it say we can't draft a QB and OL the same year? Are OL and WR's not available in FA? Are there not future drafts we can continue building the team around the QB.

Don't be obtuse. OL is a problem as is the lack of offensive playmakers. QB is a bigger problem. We have mediocre players at WR and most of the OL positions. We have a horrible player under center and a bad one backing him up.

[petedaddy]

This race to destroy Beck after two starts with the Redskins is a little insane. It's beyond comprehension.

Please keep the following in mind:

1) Blaine Gabbert has more career starts than John Beck. If we had drafted Gabbert last year, and he had the stinker in Buffalo, yes we would still be upset, but I think more of us would chalk it up to having a rookie QB. I know there are rumblings of starting to call Blaine Gabbert a bust at this point, but it's too early to tell. I would argue that Gabbert has less wide receiver talent than we do, but this isn't a Jaguars discussion. My point on this is that Beck is still inexperienced. (Granted, the argument can be that Beck has been in the league a few years, but my personal belief is that there is no substitute for in game reps)

2) Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, and Christian Ponder are all looking sharp as rookies. I've seen this used as an argument that if they are sharp as rookies, then why can't we just throw someone out there and have offensive production. Keep in mind a couple points.

a. Cam Newton was the # 1 overall pick, so obviously he is some kind of physical specimen. He also has Steve Smith. He also has only won two games, so yes while he has shown brilliance, it's not like the Panthers are in playoff contention.

b. Andy Dalton - He has become one of my favorite players, but keep in mind his stats against the same Bills defense 18 for 36, 1 touchdown and 2 interceptions.

c. Christian Ponder - His completion percentage right now is 51.9% after 3 games. Way too early to say yay or nay on him, but the point is Vikings fans have some leniency since this is their rookie QB. Also, it goes without saying that the Vikings have freaking Adrian Peterson who is unbelievable.

3) John Beck is essentially a rookie QB. No, he did not play great against the Bills, and yes, he does share some blame on the sacks, but he also has the opportunity to grow from this as other rookie QB's do. Sometimes the only way to learn is to be thrown into the fire. It's a lot different seeing things holding a clipboard vs being thrown to the wolves.

This leads to the big question: Will John Beck grow from this and progress as an NFL QB? This is the BIG unknown and is completely why I don't understand the need to crucify Beck at this point. There are plenty of cases of Hall of Fame players who didn't start their careers as world beaters. There are also plenty of cases of players who start their careers looking like Hall of Fame players, and then the league catches up to them.

My main point is this. Let's give Beck at least a fighter's chance to pull himself up from this and show what he can do.

Can we at least, as fans, give him through the Cowboys game before we are ready to call him the worst NFL QB ever? The guy hasn't even had a home field start.

I for one am at least interested to see what the guy can do. Maybe he really is the worst NFL QB ever, but I think he deserves the chance to prove it.

Anyways, sorry for the rant, I just don't understand the need to destroy Beck at this point. It's not like we have a recent QB pick sitting on the sideline, and Beck is getting in the way of their development.

[ncr2h]

If a rookie put up the same performance that Beck did last week, I would call him a bust right then and there. It is impossible for me to imagine a QB turning his career around from a performance like that. This isn't inaccuracy. This isn't bad mechanics. This isn't even bad decision-making. This is a complete lack of decision-making.

This is a loser. This is a deer caught in the headlights. What I saw two days ago was not a quarterback. Quarterbacks have to make decisions. Quarterbacks have to throw the ball. John Beck won't even throw the ball. He's in way over his head, and I suspect at this point even he has to know it.

[petedaddy]

If a rookie put up the same performance that Beck did last week, I would call him a bust right then and there. It is impossible for me to imagine a QB turning his career around from a performance like that. This isn't inaccuracy. This isn't bad mechanics. This isn't even bad decision-making. This is a complete lack of decision-making.

This is a loser. This is a deer caught in the headlights. What I saw two days ago was not a quarterback. Quarterbacks have to make decisions. Quarterbacks have to throw the ball. John Beck won't even throw the ball. He's in way over his head, and I suspect at this point even he has to know it.

I think you are being a little quick to judgment. John Elway in his first NFL game was 1 for 8 for 14 yards, 1 interception, and took 4 sacks. By your logic, he would have been cast aside right then and there.

[ncr2h]

I think you are being a little quick to judgment. John Elway in his first NFL game was 1 for 8 for 14 yards, 1 interception, and took 4 sacks. By your logic, he would have been cast aside right then and there.

Yeah, I would be real quick to judge Elway. Here's an article about his first game: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121123/index.htm

Some highlights:

In a show-stopping performance that blazed across the Denver sky last Friday night, Bronco Quarterback John Elway established himself—in exactly four minutes, 22 seconds—as a phenom of extraordinary proportions. That's how long it took the NFL's most heralded rookie in eons, and at $l million a year its highest-paid player, to grab the Broncos—2-7 last year and trailing in this game 7-3—by the throat and march them, nay, stampede them, 75 yards into the Seattle end zone for the winning touchdown. The drive took 10 plays—Elway's first 10 as a pro—and during it the quarterback completed five of six passes, in the rain.

In summary, John Elway did more in his first 10 plays than John Beck will likely ever do in his entire career.

[Dirt]

Unfortunately for Rex, it takes very detailed insight like this to make Beck look as bad as he did. What's worse, 9 sacks or 4 picks? Rex had the game he did, coupled with his history, and the fact he was regressing since his last 2 games.

Is Beck regressing? uh..yea. We only gave Rex 3 games of regression. Otherwise, he won 3 times. Even if those wins were 'despite' Rex, it seems we can't win 'despite' Beck.

This write-up could be argued, but one thing most of us seem to agree on is Beck staring down receivers, and really playing very simple football. If it's lesser of two evils, just give me Rex. He's quarterbacked for 3 wins, so there you go.

[petedaddy]

Yeah, I would be real quick to judge Elway. Here's an article about his first game: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121123/index.htm

Some highlights:

In summary, John Elway did more in his first 10 plays than John Beck will likely ever do in his entire career.

That's a preseason game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow, just wow.

[D'Pablo]

C'mon guys, you gotta realize that spending five years in the league essentially means you're a rookie. There's absolutely no way you learn how to be a QB on the bench and just light it up from that point on. After all, look at Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Matt Cassel, Phillip Rivers, and Matt Hasselbeck. Those guys all rode the bench for 5 years and sucked when they finally got their chance to start. Oh wait, no they didn't.

[petedaddy]

C'mon guys' date=' you gotta realize that spending five years in the league essentially means you're a rookie. There's absolutely no way you learn how to be a QB on the bench and just light it up from that point on. After all, look at Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Matt Cassel, Phillip Rivers, and Matt Hasselbeck. Those guys all rode the bench for 5 years and sucked when they finally got their chance to start. Oh wait, no they didn't.[/quote']

All of those guys had to grow in games at some point, and they were allowed to work through them. Therefore proving the point. Matt Schaub had a game early in his career 17 for 41 2 picks 0 TD's, Matt Cassel didn't throw for more than 200 yards until his 4th start. Phillip Rivers first game after Brees, he only threw for 108 yards. Matt Hasselbeck in 2nd start was 9 for 24 for 62 yards and took 7 sacks.

Aaron Rodgers I won't dare say anything bad about, because he is amazing, and I always wish he would have slipped to us in that draft, ugh! I still have bad dreams about that draft.

The point is, you have to give these guys time to grow and learn and make mistakes.

Am I saying John Beck will become one of these guys, who the hell knows, but every great QB has to have room to grow at some point. By the same token, every bad QB will be found out too. I just don't understand the need to crucify the guy after two starts for the burgundy and gold.

[grego]

i think its a little too soon to give up on beck- especially after he looked respectable, at least, if not 'pretty good', in his previous game and a half. and while some of the sacks are one him, clearly some were not. i'm not going to continue to harp on playcalling (but i really am for a moment anyway ), but i count one roll out that he was sacked on (the first sack). i'm not sure why more werent called after, oh, maybe the 6th sack. not sure if there were any called screens- i dont recall seeing many if any, but it seems something quick would be a good idea. also, not sure how we manage to abandon the running game again so early. 3 teams in a row that every other team in the NFL runs on, but us. it doesnt make sense. i continue to see a lack of adjustments or odd playcalling, which would be great- if it actually worked. its just mystifying.

anyhow, if we can blame beck on 6 sacks, can we blame him for our lack of O line run blocking (yes, i know some will say they stack the line and force him to pass, so, yes, thats becks fault too). its hard for me to believe the worst D in the NFL can continually get to our QB with a 4 or 5 man rush (at least 5 sacks were on a 4 man rush) and completely shut down our run game. at least getting to the QB with 4 men rushing explains, in part, why beck wasnt finding any open WR's, with everyone else in coverage. still, he needs to learn how to get rid of it.

lets face it- our WR's are garbage. our division foes have 2 WR's each that are far better than any of our guys. that doesnt help rex or back, to be fair.

lets give the man more than 1 bad game, shall we? as if we have a better option anyway.

what more concerning to me is the apparent dislike of beck on the players part. i cant say i understand it if its based on what they bring to the table (again, i've been a rex supporter going back to last year). i just dont see rex as bringing more to table- if anything, i would think his knack for turnovers would drive players crazy. maybe people hate becks personality?

[D'Pablo]

All of those guys had to grow in games at some point, and they were allowed to work through them. Therefore proving the point. Matt Schaub had a game early in his career 17 for 41 2 picks 0 TD's, Matt Cassel didn't throw for more than 200 yards until his 4th start. Phillip Rivers first game after Brees, he only threw for 108 yards. Matt Hasselbeck in 2nd start was 9 for 24 for 62 yards and took 7 sacks.

Aaron Rodgers I won't dare say anything bad about, because he is amazing, and I always wish he would have slipped to us in that draft, ugh! I still have bad dreams about that draft.

The point is, you have to give these guys time to grow and learn and make mistakes.

Am I saying John Beck will become one of these guys, who the hell knows, but every great QB has to have room to grow at some point. By the same token, every bad QB will be found out too. I just don't understand the need to crucify the guy after two starts for the burgundy and gold.

One crucial difference... They hadn't been in the league five years and were not over 30. He's not young so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Moreover, he acted like he was entitled to the starting job before the season even began. He created the lofty expectations and failed miserably.

[Lavarleap56]

Pete come on bro lol I admire your positivity but beck is horrible. I already cant wait for april so we can draft a qb and all the Beck love will disappear.