Taking away the Scissors that Kyle keeps running around with.....future of Rex/Kyle Thread #283

[@DCGoldPants]

After Rex throws his 4th int (which should have been his 6th) of the day, Kyle Shanahan throws up his arms and says “You’re In” to John Beck. What’s weird is that when Rex started the 2nd half, I figured there was nothing he could do to get benched. The choice could have been, and should have been made earlier in the game just by looking at Rex’s “progression” this season.

Vs. NYG – 21/34 – 305 yards 2 TD’s 110.5 rating

Vs. AZ – 25/43 – 291 yards 2 TD’s 2 Ints’s 74.9 rating

Vs. Dallas – 22/37 – 250 yards 1 TD 1 Int 77.5 rating

Vs. St. Louis – 15/29 – 143 yards 1 TD 2 Int 48.5 rating

Vs. Philly – 9/22 – 143 yards 0 TD 4 Int 23.7 rating

He wasn’t going to improve in this game. Everybody knew it, and by missing two OL, we needed mobility at QB all the sudden.

By halftime, Rex should have had 4 Ints if 2 weren’t dropped by the “bad” Eagles defense. So, I’m wondering about the conversation between the offensive coordinator and head coach at halftime, and if one had to convince the other to leave Rex in to start the 2nd half. Then I worry if the conversation was really more son and father than one coach that works for another, and if that father was willing to give a little more time because his son was asking for Rex to stay in.

Am I wrong to be concerned that Kyle WANTS Rex to be successful in his system over knowing when its time to pull the guy? Understanding that the Skins were basically playing from behind the whole game, the 37 passes to 14 rushes (really 12 because Beck took off twice) ratio was not getting it done. Running these bunched packages where the Eagles D knew they had to cover a WR, a TE and then stack the box, just was not working….and I don’t remember if we spread it all way out and then handed it off to thin out their middle. Seems that was part of what worked for other teams the past few weeks.

I know two OL were lost, I know Cooley was lost. But this really goes back to two serious questions going into Carolina.

#1. Should Rex Grossman be kept on the roster for the rest of the season? I waited overnight to ask this question here so it wouldn’t appear kneejerk. But, we’ve seen him regress this season. He’s not going to improve, I think everybody know this….well, except maybe a few people. Having him on the roster and as an option is dangerous if now you’re going to give Beck time to play. I know the question is “Who becomes the backup QB?” I honestly don’t know. There are guys on the street that you wouldn’t put in a game unless there is an injury. Can we say that for Rex?

#2. How does somebody remove playcalling duties from their son? I’m curious of the dynamic in Houston when Kyle was the OC. This is a difficult situation I’m sure for the HC because he knows the calls have been less than good too often. Allowing Kyle to keep calling plays, and giving him the option to go back to Rex is a dangerous combination. If Kyle is running with scissors or keeps trying to touch the hot stove….how do you stop him? If you take away the duties, you can’t give them back, right? Kyle is 0-2 with creating/calling a scheme with his QB's so far in Washington. Will he be 0-3 when this season is over?

What is the solution here?

[LD0506]

IMO the solution is in your question, who's the backup? What can be done @ the QB position? We all hope and pray that Beck can be functional but until we fix that spot, every thing else suffers.

[CrypticVillain]

It was one drive this year, I can't remember which game it was (Gun to my head I would say it was our only TD versus Dallas) where I swear that Mike Shanahan was calling the plays. I don;t think Kyle has quite gotten that he is not in the AFC South anymore. His playcalling needs to be aggressive from the get go, but it still has to be smart and unpredictable. How come yesterday was the first time we ran a WR screen? Torain only had ten carries :doh: Hopefully with Beck, in all likelihood becoming the starter, Kyle can open this thing up.

[Mursilis]

#1. Should Rex Grossman be kept on the roster for the rest of the season?

NO! Why keep him?!? Why? What value does he add? We know his full potential at this point, and he's simply not good enough to be good/great QB in this league! He's had MORE than enough chances, and he was who we thought he was. Somewhere out there is the next Tom Brady - some unknown who's been overlooked and merely needs a shot. Look at Ryan Fitzpatrick up in Buffalo. Buffalo took a shot on a guy who's been in the league a bunch of years but hasn't played much (and when he did, it was on AWFUL teams), showed some patience, and now they've got a top-10 QB, and didn't sink a bunch of high draft picks into getting him either. Grossman ISN'T the QB of the future here. Beck may be, or he may not be, but it's time to find out. Give Beck an extended audition, and cut Grossman for someone else who may have some hidden potential. There are more Fitzpatricks and Bradys and Warners out there - this team just has to have the guts to give them a shot.

[airborneskins]

How come yesterday was the first time we ran a WR screen?

HA! Never thought that I would see somebody say this.

[Bang]

NO! Why keep him?!? Why? What value does he add? We know his full potential at this point, and he's simply not good enough to be good/great QB in this league! He's had MORE than enough chances, and he was who we thought he was. Somewhere out there is the next Tom Brady - some unknown who's been overlooked and merely needs a shot. Look at Ryan Fitzpatrick up in Buffalo. Buffalo took a shot on a guy who's been in the league a bunch of years but hasn't played much (and when he did, it was on AWFUL teams), showed some patience, and now they've got a top-10 QB, and didn't sink a bunch of high draft picks into getting him either. Grossman ISN'T the QB of the future here. Beck may be, or he may not be, but it's time to find out. Give Beck an extended audition, and cut Grossman for someone else who may have some hidden potential. There are more Fitzpatricks and Bradys and Warners out there - this team just has to have the guts to give them a shot.

Let's say Beck breaks his leg neext wek.

Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

Rex is a backup, that's obvious. And unfortunately, he's the one we have.

We could go get Garrard, I guess, but that means dropping one QB that no one wants for another QB that no one wants, including his team that cut him a few days before the season began.

As far as finding the Fitz's, Warners and Bradys out there... good luck turning over rocks. To assume the Redskins aren't looking is pretty silly.

~Bang

[@DCGoldPants]

Let's say Beck breaks his leg neext wek.

Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

Rex is a backup, that's obvious. And unfortunately, he's the one we have.

We could go get Garrard, I guess, but that means dropping one QB that no one wants for another QB that no one wants, including his team that cut him a few days before the season began.

As far as finding the Fitz's, Warners and Bradys out there... good luck turning over rocks. To assume the Redskins aren't looking is pretty silly.

~Bang

~Bang

That's my point. If Beck breaks his leg, what's the difference between Grossman and some guy you sign today to be your #2? Rex has been in the system for 3 years and threw 4 picks. I'd say we can't do much worse. What's important to me is...what if Beck struggles in a game, how long do they give him before forgetting how back Rex was?

[Oldfan]

#1. Should Rex Grossman be kept on the roster for the rest of the season?

Yes. The NFL East could be won by a 9-7 or even an 8-8 team his year. Rex knows the scheme and can be more effective coming into a game when defenses haven't game planned for him.

#2. How does somebody remove playcalling duties from their son?

When offensive plays fail, the problem is due to poor execution 80% of the time. Yet, the OC's playcalling will be second-guessed 100% of the time.

[Mursilis]

Let's say Beck breaks his leg neext wek.

Who you gonna call?

Anybody but Rex. You mentioned Garrard. He's too old now at age 33 to be the future, but he's got a 85 career QB rating vs. 70 for Grossman, so he'd clearly be an upgrade. But still, there's a good lesson there. Garrard was a 4th round pick who was pretty good for a few years down there in Jax. He got them to 11-5 one year, and made the Pro Bowl. When was the last time a 'skins QB did either? Jax took a risk on a guy with no rep, and it worked out for them for a while. Meanwhile we continue to waste draft picks chasing a parade of QBs who ultimately do nothing worthwhile here.

As far as finding the Fitz's, Warners and Bradys out there... good luck turning over rocks. To assume the Redskins aren't looking is pretty silly.

If this team is really looking, why are we still wasting a roster spot and practice time on Grossman, and we let a potential sleeper stud like Chase Daniels get away?

[gortiz]

you are right ... i know for a fact that Garrard could come in and play better than Grossman, he at least would not throw 4 (shoud have been 6) INT's in a game. damn the 2-3 years Rex has with Kyle.

Now, i'm willing to extend faith for Kyle. He's proven. Granted, only a few years in Houston, but he did well there. Unlike Zorn and Spurrier, he at least has something on his resume as a playcaller, so I think he has it in him.

But, but, if it was Kyle lobbying to keep Rex in the game and if it his him that is going to bat for Rex, we have an issue cause even I know Rex is done. And he's not done because of the last game, it is that downward progression you mentioned Buford and not the number, but the types of INT's he's throwing.

---------- Post added October-17th-2011 at 09:38 AM ----------

Yes. The NFL East could be won by a 9-7 or even an 8-8 team his year. Rex knows the scheme and can be more effective coming into a game when defenses haven't game planned for him.

great point Oldfan ... basically he would serve just right as a backup.

[Mursilis]

That's my point. If Beck breaks his leg, what's the difference between Grossman and some guy you sign today to be your #2? Rex has been in the system for 3 years and threw 4 picks. I'd say we can't do much worse. What's important to me is...what if Beck struggles in a game, how long do they give him before forgetting how back Rex was?

Exactly! Someone gets it. Of course, the difference is, some guy you sign off the street could be the next Kurt Warner/Warren Moon, whereas Rex Grossman will always be Rex Grossman!

[CrypticVillain]

HA! Never thought that I would see somebody say this.

I am serious though. We have recievers that will murder somebody on a screen. Put Banks in sometimes and see what he can do on a screen. Mix stuff up.

Grossman isn't going anywhere this year. Entertaining the thought is pointless......

[The Dude]

"Pro sports is full of these hopelessly daddy-addicted athletes who wouldn't think of taking a s--t without their father's approval. When I hear the sons of coaches talking on television, they sound to me like parent-pleasers and ass-kissers." - George Carlin, When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?

[@DCGoldPants]

When offensive plays fail, the problem is due to poor execution 80% of the time. Yet, the OC's playcalling will be second-guessed 100% of the time.

A lot was left of the table yesterday, especially in the run game. You don't execute spreading out your offense (forcing the D to spread) and then running at their weakness. That's a playcall we didn't go with at all. Why not? We kept bunch it up and trying to run into a traffic jam? At some point the decisions to throw on 1st down, or to run from a bad set has to be questioned. Who is sending in those packages that aren't working and haven't worked yet?

[gortiz]

A lot was left of the table yesterday, especially in the run game. You don't execute spreading out your offense (forcing the D to spread) and then running at their weakness. That's a playcall we didn't go with at all. Why not? We kept bunch it up and trying to run into a traffic jam? At some point the decisions to throw on 1st down, or to run from a bad set has to be questioned. Who is sending in those packages that aren't working and haven't worked yet?

it just seems like we complicate the offense so much, the skins/kyle/mike get way to cute.

there also seems to be a weird void of certain plays on offense ... WR screen, we ran one, at it was great, but just one. Double moves, stop and gos, NEVER SEE THEM. TE screens, pitches and tosses, what has happened to the naked bootleg? The ever absent back shoulder throw, curles? we never see those. it almost seems like we did not run one stretch play yesterday. Quick hitting running plays, shovel passes.

[@DCGoldPants]

it just seems like we complicate the offense so much, the skins/kyle/mike get way to cute.

there also seems to be a weird void of certain plays on offense ... WR screen, we ran one, at it was great, but just one. Double moves, stop and gos, NEVER SEE THEM. TE screens, pitches and tosses, what has happened to the naked bootleg? The ever absent back shoulder throw, curles? we never see those. it almost seems like we did not run one stretch play yesterday. Quick hitting running plays, shovel passes.

I've noticed we run the same packages with the same motion over and over. I know that doesn't mean its the same play. But its usually similar protections. For every flea flicker, there is a predictable part of the offense that you can identify from the stands or on TV, so you know the other team can too. They aren't good enough to say "We're going to run on you.....so try stopping us".

[Bang]

That's my point. If Beck breaks his leg, what's the difference between Grossman and some guy you sign today to be your #2? Rex has been in the system for 3 years and threw 4 picks. I'd say we can't do much worse. What's important to me is...what if Beck struggles in a game, how long do they give him before forgetting how back Rex was?

Well, as far as I'm concerned, once this change is made it's for the year. Can't flip back and forth.

~Bang

[tiger187126]

Let's say Beck breaks his leg neext wek.

Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters?

Rex is a backup, that's obvious. And unfortunately, he's the one we have.

We could go get Garrard, I guess, but that means dropping one QB that no one wants for another QB that no one wants, including his team that cut him a few days before the season began.

As far as finding the Fitz's, Warners and Bradys out there... good luck turning over rocks. To assume the Redskins aren't looking is pretty silly.

~Bang

garrard won't come in to be a backup and it's pretty late to try to teach him the entire system. he already turned down a couple teams and oakland seems perfect for him.

i think all we need is a qb who is not going to cost the team until we get our franchise guy. beck has the long term contract and grossman is 1 and done right now.

[@DCGoldPants]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, once this change is made it's for the year. Can't flip back and forth.

~Bang

If I believed that was the case, I wouldn't say you gotta drop Rex. But if Beck struggles.....they are going to slowly forget how bad Rex was with all those reps the past 5 weeks. You have to give Beck at least the same amount of time. Rex found a way to turn it over 11 times in 5 games. That's magical.

Let me put it this way. I'd rather trade Stallworth or whoever to Denver for Brady Quinn to be the backup. That's right. I said it.....I would take Brady Quinn as backup over Rex Grossman.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I think you have to keep Grossman, but I think the QB switch should be permanent (injury aside of course). What Rex might bring that none of us know is the ability to put the offense in the right plays based on the defense. Hell, for all we know, that's the only reason he was starting over Beck. If you bring in Garrard or bring back someone from the preseason, you might not have a QB that knows the system well enough to even call an audible at the line.

So, for me, I would play Beck as the starter as long as he's healthy with Rex as the backup. If Beck were to be hurt for the rest of the year, you play Rex until you have someone here for a couple weeks to learn a couple things.

[gaskinsfan]

My 2 cents on your questions:

1. Yes emphatically, the offense is complicated, you need to be able to call your full complement of plays to have a chance to win, if there was a younger QB we have tutored along on the roster maybe you could give them a chance but there is not. Switch the roles, give Beck a good chance, and have Rex as backup. We are rebuilding, so no reason to panic. I was glad when Jeff George was taken off the roster, but keeping Rex only makes sense.

2. Kyle seemed to open up more of the offense when Beck got in there. Let's see how his game plan goes with Beck at the helm before making final judgement about the offense. Kyle can only work with what he has, and Rex simply is not mobile and cannot read defenses or find check-down receivers.

Look we are 3-2, 1/2 game down from the Giants, lots of football left. O Line depth is an issue, Beck is more mobile, hopefully we get things going with a win in Carolina.

[joeknows]

i know there are a ton of threads about the game yesterday so if the mods feel the need to merge this somewhere please do...

The Redskins are my life. i dont like NBA, NHL or MLB. i ONLY watch and keep up with the Redskins and the NFL. there has been a lot of talk about the lame game planing / play calling.

it comes as no surprise to me and i believe it is directly related to Grossmans short comings as a qb. prior to the beginning the season or right around week 1 there was an interview with Grossman where he said that the plays were drawn up for him to go to one specific receiver and then the check down.

i wish i had the link for the article but i have been mostly getting the news on my phone from sources such as... your very own Washington post, ESPN, and Yahoo. < have been without internet for a couple of months>

but the quote concerned me then and even more so now. it sounded to me like the coaches dont have faith in him reading defenses and going through his progressions. they have been relying on him to MANAGE games and do what he is told. thereby handcuffing the creativity of the offense... which leads us to yesterday and Kurt Coleman having a stellar day against us. the play calling has become so predictable that Coleman states in the following link that he was able to read Grossman all day.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/kurt-coleman-said-he-could-read-rex-grossman/2011/10/17/gIQAaQ4brL_blog.html

i was, like many of you, behind Grossman and hoped and prayed he would prove Chicago and my Illinois family wrong. i have now resigned myself to the understanding that he is.... the same as he ever was.

im looking forward to Beck hitting the field. hopefully he can make better use of the few options that we actually do have.

and by the way... to those of you in the DC area.... could you list some of your local newspaper links or where you get you news from because i am not around a computer often anymore and like to get the news on my phone when possible. Please.... and thank you in advance.

[Redskins432]

If I believed that was the case, I wouldn't say you gotta drop Rex. But if Beck struggles.....they are going to slowly forget how bad Rex was with all those reps the past 5 weeks. You have to give Beck at least the same amount of time. Rex found a way to turn it over 11 times in 5 games. That's magical.

Let me put it this way. I'd rather trade Stallworth or whoever to Denver for Brady Quinn to be the backup. That's right. I said it.....I would take Brady Quinn as backup over Rex Grossman.

Rather than trade for a backup, personally I would just bring back Clemens. He went through camp, and should know some of the system.

Personally, I think that Beck should start. Grossman has shown us all he can do, and that is a highly inconsistent quarterback who has some good flashes.

It's a no brainer that we need a franchise QB and since Rex has now shown that he's incapable of being our QB, you play Beck and hope for the best. Regardless though, I hope we draft a QB in the first round.

[Enter Apotheosis]

So, I’m wondering about the conversation between the offensive coordinator and head coach at halftime, and if one had to convince the other to leave Rex in to start the 2nd half. Then I worry if the conversation was really more son and father than one coach that works for another, and if that father was willing to give a little more time because his son was asking for Rex to stay in.

Am I wrong to be concerned that Kyle WANTS Rex to be successful in his system over knowing when its time to pull the guy?

You're wrong for being concerned about that and you're even more wrong for drumming up so much completely speculative bull**** about the nature of the working relationship of the Shanahans. That is honestly one of the stupidest possible things to be worrying about right now. You're actually inventing a problem which may very well not even exist and are conflating it with other, very legitimate concerns which you then fail to address properly because you trace said concerns back to your original, likely nonexistent problem.

[Bang]

If I believed that was the case, I wouldn't say you gotta drop Rex. But if Beck struggles.....they are going to slowly forget how bad Rex was with all those reps the past 5 weeks. You have to give Beck at least the same amount of time. Rex found a way to turn it over 11 times in 5 games. That's magical.

Let me put it this way. I'd rather trade Stallworth or whoever to Denver for Brady Quinn to be the backup. That's right. I said it.....I would take Brady Quinn as backup over Rex Grossman.

If it came to that, I'd rather call Kellen Clemens back.

Hell, I'd rather call him back anyway.

~Bang