Rex Grossman as compared to Jake Plummer....(under Shanahan)

[NoCalMike]

I think there is an argument to be made here about both QBs and how they performed pre-Shanahan, and then how they performed running an offense with the Shanahan running zone-blocking system in front of it.

Plummer will mostly be known for a QB that never lived up to potential, however there is no doubt when he was signed to the Broncos after a mostly average career, he went on to have a some of his most productive years as a pro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Plummer

It is still not a forgone conclusion that our running game will be "great" in 2011, but assuming it is SOLID as opposed to woeful last year, is it reasonable to think Grossman's game will be elevated as well?

[Destino]

TD/INT with the Cards over 5 seasons (ignoring rookie year): 75/99.

If you don't trust "seasons" and prefer pass attempts: he threw 1 TD per 32.8 pass attempts and 1 INT per 24.9 pass attempts.

TD/INT with the Broncos 4 seasons 71/47

1 TD/22.5ATT and 1/33.9 (int/att)

Grossman with the bears:

TD/INT 31/34

1/28.7 (td/att) 1/26.2(int/att)

Grossman with the skins (all of three games)

7/4 TD/INT

1/19 (td/att) 1/33.3(int/att)

Three games isn't nearly enough but if the above holds true he'll see a massive improvement in efficiency that Plummer did.

[posse87]

Coaches who understand how to be a QB and can mold them is so important. Defensive guys are also important, but this is a QB league and mentoring the QB is just the most important aspect for a coaching staff and longterm success of organizations.

[Oldskool]

I believe that one thing that helped Plummer to a huge extent is that in the 4 years that he started every game for the Broncos, they never passed more than they ran the ball.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?315837-Reconcilement-of-the-Shanahan-s-offenses-through-the-numbers-and-outcomes

2003 +64 run 46.87% pass 53.13% run

2004 +13 run 49.38% pass 50.62% run

2005 +77 run 46.18% pass 53.82% run

2006 +34 run 48.20% pass 51.80% run

Over 4 years the team had on average 479.75 pass attempts, 526.75 rushes, averaged 47 more rushes per year and came out 47.66% pass 52.34% run

With a newly revamped OL and two young runners in Hightower and Helu, I can see Shanny limiting Rex's chances to make mistakes by running the ball at a similar pace.

[SkinsFTW]

Yeah I'm pretty sure that Shanahan is betting on the same thing happening. The difference being that Grossman isn't quite the head case that Plummer was. I have a feeling that fumbles are always going to be a major problem with him though but even that can be improved considering this offense is much faster in the QB getting rid of the ball.

[HailGreen28]

TD/INT with the Cards over 5 seasons (ignoring rookie year): 75/99.

If you don't trust "seasons" and prefer pass attempts: he threw 1 TD per 32.8 pass attempts and 1 INT per 24.9 pass attempts.

TD/INT with the Broncos 4 seasons 71/47

1 TD/22.5ATT and 1/33.9 (int/att)

Grossman with the bears:

TD/INT 31/34

1/28.7 (td/att) 1/26.2(int/att)

Grossman with the skins (all of three games)

7/4 TD/INT

1/19 (td/att) 1/33.3(int/att)

Three games isn't nearly enough but if the above holds true he'll see a massive improvement in efficiency that Plummer did.

Do you think it's Shanny's offensive system? His individual QB coaching? Or something else?

[Destino]

The ultra efficient running game helps the QBs. I also don't think the QBs are asked to do as much as other offenses. It seems to be more about the right decisions and taking what the system gives you then it is about really making plays. If the players get it, thier numbers improve.

[Snagletooth]

Shanahan likes to run, no doubt, but when his offense is at its best he likes to pass early, get a lead and then protect it with, ball control, and the zone run game.

Elway never liked the rollout game, he complained about it, eventually he pulled a hammy and Shanny let him throw from the pocket alot more.

I agree we need to lean on the run game with Rex or Beck. But with Rex more of the pocket passer type and Kyle calling plays Im guessing we will see passing acount for at least 50% of the offense.

[TheShredder]

In this offense you can watch the tape and see some differences to the MS system with Elway. There were things in place in Denver that gave the offense more to utilize and you had a QB that could throw on a rope, see the open receiver better, and throw the ball with a touch on a pass. The RB's, as much as everyone love TD, were pretty much the same guys that are on the roster now. I'm assuming that the OL is coming into the mold of the typical ZBS guys that MS is looking for. For sure Trent Williams, Jamal Brown, and Chester are these guys. Having a majority rule your OL and stabilizing the unit should breed cohesion and produce drastic improvement in the overall running game and offense as a whole.

To more directly answer the question with regards to the QB position and if Plummer is any indication that Grossman will outperform.... You can only really go + or - on this. When you have your system in place and capable players at each spot, the system begins to work... That's a PLUS. When you don't, that's a MINUS. Last year...MINUS. This year PLUS. Why?

I think a good example is to look at other systems and how they work. If you add and subtract pieces to the systems you can easily see the fall off and the line changes dramatically. When you look at Philly, when Vick gets hurt, what happens to the system? I think anyone would agree that there is a dramatic fall off. Why? Here's an athlete that has been in a system for a couple of years and understands what's going on. He has skills that afford for some positive things to happen. There is a comfort factor, team wide, when he is in there. The drop off is huge. There's a dramatic line shift.

As far as Rex and Plummer go... This is 2011 and what KS brings to the table is a new Shanahan angle to an effective system. The MS of old is good at what he used to do and has an improved philosophy about the 2009-Present NFL. All you have to do is go back and watch the initial interviews with what MS said about taking a year off and seeing what he wanted to do and now it was time to do it. For that, this is a system. MS and KS and BA and Haz are putting a new system into place and putting the right pieces of the puzzle together for the designed system. These are not just coaches but engineers of a billion dollar franchise that is moving in the right direction with the best fits to the holes in the system that they can get. I don't think for one second that Rex Grossman is going to be some second coming of John Elway. He's not going to be Plummer II. He will be Rex Grossman, 2011. That is going to be interesting as he has some experience. He has some experience in this new system. He has a mature understanding of his strengths and weaknesses. All he has to do is improve on minimizing the 'Bad Rex', for which he is not ignoring. The 'Bad Rex' looses his mind and goes to the Bahamas for a second. That's a focus and concentration issue. He's been working on that. There will be some 'Bad Rex' moments and hopefully they only show up every once in awhile, vs. every weekend.

2011 Rex will be a PLUS vs a MINUS as he stays focused and his concentration factor improves with his maturity and experience.

[No_Pressure]

I was going to make a thread about this, but searched and saw this one first. I think that there are a lot of parallels between Grossman and Plummer. Both of them were great college QB's who were never exactly what the teams who drafted wanted them to be. Grossman was surrounded by mediocre talent on the Bears offense, and was mistake/turnover prone. He had games where he looked fantastic, and then he had games like the MNF game at Arizona where I'm fairly sure he had a QB rating in the single digits.

Jake Plummer was a great college QB who had high expectations with the Cardinals. He didn't have the defense behind him that Grossman had, but he did have David Boston on roids for a few years to pass to. Once Plummer grew a pornstar moustache and went to Denver to play for Shanahan, he turned his career around. He retired at a young age and one can only wonder if he could have persisted and continued playing solid for a few more years, but anybody can agree that his QB ratings of 91,84, and 90 in his first 3 seasons in Denver were much better than the ratings of 73, 75, 50, 66, 79, 65 in his years in Arizona.

I have always felt that Grossman was a better QB than he looked in Chicago, he had some years to sit and learn the game and Kyle Shanahan's system. This season he had to fight to earn his job and he has to play well to maintain it. He has what seems to be a good defense behind him and potentially a better than mediocre offense at his disposal. His coaches are proven QB groomers and salvagers.

I hope that we finally have somebody here who can get the job done adequately. I think we might be spared too many games of "bad Rex" this year and might instead have either good Rex or mediocre Rex.