Reaper 21: Trying to define the Mike Shannahan system.

[Bang]

good thread, and good pull, TK. Paul looks like he's cruising. Very smooth acceleration. Plenty of legroom. Fine corinthian leather.

I would not like to see Austin get traded, but if he did and Paul came up, how much real difference is there?

Both made the most of opportunities, I thought. Neither of them made any crucial errors. Both showed good hands.

for me, I guess the thing that keeps my jaw from hitting the floor like GHH's is Anthony Armstrong.

I think he's been largely forgotten in these discussions, but I believe he's a quality wide receiver, and he will be a fine 3 for us. I like his route running,i love his deep speed.. honestly, I think if I'm shanny I have him and Beck / Grossman out on a field alone, and they just throw bomb after bomb until one of them develops a feel for his speed.

Last year it's underthrows, the other night it's an overthrow.. and man, view the tape, he ALWAYS has more than a step on the defense on the deep ball. Last year I figure he'd likely have had five more deep TDs if McNabb lays it out there for him rather than make him stop for the jump ball.

The sideline route Beck hit him with vs the Ravens in the face of the blitz was just what you want to see. Instant recognition of the blitz, instant recognition of single coverage and his responsibility, and the play made with a CB draped on him in pretty solid coverage. 30 yard gain on a hot read. Lovely play.

I LIKE SKITTLES ARMSTRONG.

What say you?

~Bang

[Sellersfan]

Nice post OP.

I agree that it is a "plug and play" system that Shanny runs.

I cant get over how quickly we have become "flush" at the WR position. Wasn't too long ago that after Moss the drop off was steep (Randle El anyone?) And we all know how Vinny/ Danny tried to fix it in one draft.

I want to keep Austin, but if he can get us something valuable in trade, I would make that deal. IMO, we still need to draft in no particular order: center, CB, guard. Austin could help the re build indirectly if we got a solid pick for him.

[Win4us]

i added a little more to the op, now some retuning tell me what you think.

That's a very good assessment write up reaper, eeerbody gettin upgraded.

The fact that the team is in the same systems to keep continuity is HUGE imho.

[Skinsfan1311]

But if you want to see something sick, watch this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfaNbw1yzfg

Wasn't Niles the guy who caught up easily to Banks during Banks' return for the TD? Or is my approaching senility at work again?

1) Yes.

2) Not this time, check out the clip.

I had no idea, or maybe my approaching senility is working again, on how fast Paul is. You can bet your ass that I'll be paying a lot more attention now.

[bowhunter]

Austin and Hank are our future. We're finally set at a position for a while, and now there's trade talks??? With his documented ST speed and ability, perhaps we could keep Niles at K/PR and get some trade value for Banks instead??

And as others have already mentioned, nice post Reaper (insert thumbs-up emoticon here)

[Skin'Em84]

But if you want to see something sick, watch this clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfaNbw1yzfg

Pay attention to not Banks but to Paul. You may not catch it the first time, but watch the overhead replay. If wasn't for the guy making the downfield block getting in Pauls' way, he woulda passed Banks who had a 20 yard head start with a head of steam. Oh & Paul had to turn around as well. Speed kills.

Its always been my opinion that Banks isn't necessarily the fastest guy on the team when it comes to straight line speed, but its the fact that he doesn't lose a step when he makes his cuts.

[Gurgeh]

After thinking about it trading Austin and keeping Stallworth makes sense, providing you get someone of equal youth and talent at a position of need - e.g. OL (seeing as Hicks was let go). Stallworth can play as the 4th receiver and let Hankerson and Paul develop. If we trade Stallworth we're hardly likely to get anything, we might as well have cut him and kept Hicks. It's not as if Stallworth had a bad preseason, imo.

Part of the problem is that over the last ten years we've become indoctrinated that trades are a bad thing because we've been left holding the dirty end of the trade stick so often. Trading is what good organisations do. It also shows a lot of confidence in Hankerson and Paul.

[skinfan2k]

Depends on what we get for him, if we get a 4th round pick for him, i say ship him. Moss, AA, Gaff, Paul and Hankerson and Stallworth are ahead of him

[darrelgreenie]

Trying to define the Mike Shannahan system

Zone stretch run

Zone stretch play action boot pass/keep

[Vooskin]

Not trying to down the thread but beyond say the part about the left tackle being the most important part of the offense I read nothing that wasn't common football knowledge regarding positions. Actually the very beginning of it I was intrigued because I thought the thread would provide some crazy insight into what shanny really thinks but as it went on I realized it was really nothing insightful and for the most part something I would hope fans would be clued in on.

As for Niles Paul in the clip it is clearly obvious Paul is running his fastest to catch up while the guys who just passed the punter are in coast mode because it is pretty much a score at that point.

Brandon Banks is fast but he is small. One thing anyone capable of judging talent will usually tell you size is somewhat indicative of acceleration. Simply put shorter guys are usually geared shorter which while the taller athletes have longer gears, slower to get to top speed but faster in the end. Banks is more extremely quick than extremely fast which is actually better in the majority of sports.

Everyone seems be notice that Paul looks fast on the play but I haven't seen anyone comment on the fact that he didn't effect the play at all. He never made a block on that play and we don't see anything from him until the play is pretty much over.

As for Terrence Austin, he's just another guy in a long line of guys that can be productive in this league. He is under sized, and has a weird acceleration issue I've seen, he has good open moves but he doesn't get up to speed from a stand still quick enough IMO to play the slot. This matters because he's not a one or two in this league. If they can get a 5th for him I'd take it in a heart beat. He was a 7th round pick if my memory serves me correct which nets us a positive gain since he is way back on the depth chart anyways.

In regard to trading Terrence Austin his size matters very much. Smaller guys that can run and catch in this league are a prevalent all throughout this league. The gems are the big guys that can ball, fast enough to still be a deep threat yet quick and agile enough to run crisp routes as well as the smaller guys. This matters because think of shannys receivers when he won super bowls. He had big guys like rod smith and Ed mccaffrey that could get up and fight for the ball and were strong blockers in the run game. Terrence Austin is not even close to the physical talent of Desean Jackson. TA is at best 4th on a depth chart in a team that is not highly regarded at the WR position. He's just another depth guy, guys like him are all over the league and time like these where you can sell for more than you paid for and don't have a drop off are very beneficial in building teams for the long run. This of course is assuming TA even had any offers for him. I can guarantee to the person who said they wouldn't want anything less than a 3rd round pick for him that they don't have a realistic understanding of trade value in this league. It would be hard to get a third rounder for #47 though while possible I'm sure a 4th would get more takers. That's why I sad if we can get a 5th for TA I would take it and not look back. Truth is we would be lucky if we got an offer for a 6th.

[lockerroom cancer]

That was my highlight for this thread. You sir truly know what you are talking about.

Not trying to down the thread but beyond say the part about the left tackle being the most important part of the offense I read nothing that wasn't common football knowledge regarding positions. Actually the very beginning of it I was intrigued because I thought the thread would provide some crazy insight into what shanny really thinks but as it went on I realized it was really nothing insightful and for the most part something I would hope fans would be clued in on.

As for Niles Paul in the clip it is clearly obvious Paul is running his fastest to catch up while the guys who just passed the punter are in coast mode because it is pretty much a score at that point.

Brandon Banks is fast but he is small. One thing anyone capable of judging talent will usually tell you size is somewhat indicative of acceleration. Simply put shorter guys are usually geared shorter which while the taller athletes have longer gears, slower to get to top speed but faster in the end. Banks is more extremely quick than extremely fast which is actually better in the majority of sports.

Everyone seems be notice that Paul looks fast on the play but I haven't seen anyone comment on the fact that he didn't effect the play at all. He never made a block on that play and we don't see anything from him until the play is pretty much over.

As for Terrence Austin, he's just another guy in a long line of guys that can be productive in this league. He is under sized, and has a weird acceleration issue I've seen, he has good open moves but he doesn't get up to speed from a stand still quick enough IMO to play the slot. This matters because he's not a one or two in this league. If they can get a 5th for him I'd take it in a heart beat. He was a 7th round pick if my memory serves me correct which nets us a positive gain since he is way back on the depth chart anyways.

In regard to trading Terrence Austin his size matters very much. Smaller guys that can run and catch in this league are a prevalent all throughout this league. The gems are the big guys that can ball, fast enough to still be a deep threat yet quick and agile enough to run crisp routes as well as the smaller guys. This matters because think of shannys receivers when he won super bowls. He had big guys like rod smith and Ed mccaffrey that could get up and fight for the ball and were strong blockers in the run game. Terrence Austin is not even close to the physical talent of Desean Jackson. TA is at best 4th on a depth chart in a team that is not highly regarded at the WR position. He's just another depth guy, guys like him are all over the league and time like these where you can sell for more than you paid for and don't have a drop off are very beneficial in building teams for the long run. This of course is assuming TA even had any offers for him. I can guarantee to the person who said they wouldn't want anything less than a 3rd round pick for him that they don't have a realistic understanding of trade value in this league. It would be hard to get a third rounder for #47 though while possible I'm sure a 4th would get more takers. That's why I sad if we can get a 5th for TA I would take it and not look back. Truth is we would be lucky if we got an offer for a 6th.

[bowhunter]

This matters because he's not a one or two in this league. If they can get a 5th for him I'd take it in a heart beat. He was a 7th round pick if my memory serves me correct which nets us a positive gain since he is way back on the depth chart anyways.

.

I'm not sure that a 7th rounder who takes up a spot on the practice squad and then the roster would turn into a "positive gain" for a 5th rounder. The kid is young developing talent, grow your own. Unless we can get a young promising G/C (or 3-4th round pick) from a team in desperate need of a WR, then we'd be better off keeping him. As a rule, I'd say Austin has shown more promise than the crap shoot of a 5th rounder

[Vooskin]

He was a crapshoot in the 7th round. What I'm trying to portray is that TA is not some special talent that we can grow into something that will truly effect this team. He is depth, there are guys all around the league like him that can catch a football but holding onto a guy like him when we could possibly get a new draft choice even higher then what we spent on him and to get a new chance to find say a better and newer Terrence Austin. You grow your own and hold onto guys typically the first 3 or 4 rounds then you want to take chances on guys if th depth if there and look for guys with tons of upside even if they are raw. This all depends on depth and in years past the skins WR depth has been almost non existent. This year TA could be traded and for a pick or even possibly another player and we wouldn't miss him at all. HE IS DEPTH, remember that.

[Gurgeh]

As for Niles Paul in the clip it is clearly obvious Paul is running his fastest to catch up while the guys who just passed the punter are in coast mode because it is pretty much a score at that point.

Brandon Banks is fast but he is small. One thing anyone capable of judging talent will usually tell you size is somewhat indicative of acceleration. Simply put shorter guys are usually geared shorter which while the taller athletes have longer gears, slower to get to top speed but faster in the end. Banks is more extremely quick than extremely fast which is actually better in the majority of sports.

Everyone seems be notice that Paul looks fast on the play but I haven't seen anyone comment on the fact that he didn't effect the play at all. He never made a block on that play and we don't see anything from him until the play is pretty much over.

.

He goes to block #80 but Banks is running down the center and 80 moves inside; it's another blocker who's actually been slower than Paul to get to the play who collects number 80. This leaves Paul standing still with Banks at full speed already 6 yards past him (at 41 secs). By the time Banks gets past the punter there are only 3 Skins players there: Banks, number 26 (who also blocked no-one and was 10-20 yards in front of Banks before he even started his return) and Paul.

[Bang]

Good point, Vooskin.

Austin is depth.. for now.

I would hope that this preseason would elevate potential trade deals to a 4th or even 3rd round pick status.. I don't think it's worth it for less. I think at that point it becomes a crapshoot to pick a player with that choice that is as good at this stage, or even going to make the team. Late round picks for players are for guys you really don't need or want.. just dumping them. I think Austin is a bit more than someone just to dump.

If we're to trade him , I would hope for some value beyond a 5th.

Dreaming, I know.

~Bang

[JaxJoe]

Well, what I got out of this OP is not a to debate about individuals, but to look at the plan that Shanahan and Allen are trying to implement. In hindsight, it looks like he's trying to upgrade this team in phases. Coupled with last year's minimal draft picks, an anemic free agency, and this years' lockout, it's clear to me they placed their chips on shoring up the O-Line. Yeah, I know it stunk last year, but I have to believe that Shanny knew this line would take a year or two to play cohesively. And, so far, it looks like he is right. I'm not saying there isn't massive room for improvement, but it sure looks a lot better than last year this time.

So this year, it looks like Shanny went to upgrade the D line and receiver positions. I think he was hoping Hank and Paul would have developed faster and would not have had to keep eight frickin' receivers on the team. But my bet is they really like Hank and Paul and want to develop the two for another year. I also have a suspicion that Shanny wants to win the Giants game and therefore kept Stallworth. The good news with the starting receivers of SM, AA, Griff and DS is that both QBs have shown better timing with each. I base that on how much poorer each QB has played with the second stringer receivers.

Frankly, barring a trade of DS, I wouldn't be surprised if they release him outright after the Giants game. And/or they demote Austin and Paul to the PS to bring in depth to the O-Line and Safety position.

[illone]

That's nuts. Looks like Niles is jogging - reminds me of Walter Payton's running style, looked like he was barely moving until he flew right past you.

Sean Taylor had a long stride like that as well. Looked like he was jogging all the time.