ACW Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 http://reason.com/archives/2011/07/19/return-to-normalcy We may be winning, but don't dare imagine that "victory" will take the form of a restoration of lost liberties. That's "defeatist" thinking. I suppose that's why, shortly after SEAL Team 6 killed bin Laden, Congress and the president's autopen got together to reauthorize the Patriot Act. The threat recedes, but the surveillance state must live on.... Wired magazine defense analyst Spencer Ackerman asks the right question: "Why does the U.S. still need to devote such overwhelming resources worldwide against a force that's seeing history pass it by?" As the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks approaches, isn't it time we started thinking about a "peace dividend"? Good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I wonder how many of today's politicians would enthusiastically attack someone who said, "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 No we can't have our liberties back... which is why we shouldn't have given them up in the first place. Fear can do a lot of bad things to right thinking people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACW Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 No we can't have our liberties back... which is why we shouldn't have given them up in the first place.Fear can do a lot of bad things to right thinking people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Yeah, it's really unlikely we get our freedoms back. More, it's more likely that we will lose more and more. See Florida, Wisconsin, and Arizona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Loss of freedom is like gas prices. Once you get used to coping with a certain level, it never goes back. Sure, you may get thrown a bone every once in a while, but you know the hammer is coming back down at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Hard to argue with that sentiment... except that if any politician of either party actually listened, his opponent would destroy him with the voters - who have been made paranoid for a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Ya'll don't like democracy now? When we surrendered the Republic greater good became paramount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Yeah, it's really unlikely we get our freedoms back. More, it's more likely that we will lose more and more. See Florida, Wisconsin, and Arizona. It really is very interesting to see the differences between what leftists and conservatives and libertarians consider freedoms. Forcing us to buy a federally approved health care plan Forcing us to pay into a huge wealth transfer scheme that is social security, medicare and medicaid Banning some kid from praying to his god during graduation Telling a property owner he must sell to a private developer to increase tax revenue Banning a law abiding citizen from buying a certain type of gun To a leftist, these are all instances of good government and not a loss of freedom, but if you wiretap some guy calling Iran a few times a week we are eviscerating the constitution. People in this country are basically cowards and have given up freedom for security. To say that it started with the war on terror is pretty laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 It really is very interesting to see the differences between what leftists and conservatives and libertarians consider freedoms.Forcing us to buy a federally approved health care plan I agree this is socialist, but I am for this Forcing us to pay into a huge wealth transfer scheme that is social security, medicare and medicaid Almost all U.S. citizens believe in Medicair and SS. Don't really see is as a depravation of freedom. How is this lessening my freedom. It lessens my wallet a little, but that's not the same thing. Banning some kid from praying to his god during graduation Don't approve of this. Stupid lawsuit and decision. Telling a property owner he must sell to a private developer to increase tax revenue Don't like this either Banning a law abiding citizen from buying a certain type of gun I don't want you owning a nuke, a SAM, or slingshot. Sure, it's depriving you of some freedom, but I've read too many of your posts. I'm not sure if you can be entrusted with a butter knife. To a leftist, these are all instances of good government and not a loss of freedom, but if you wiretap some guy calling Iran a few times a week we are eviscerating the constitution. People in this country are basically cowards and have given up freedom for security. To say that it started with the war on terror is pretty laughable. ---------- Post added July-20th-2011 at 08:41 PM ---------- Just curious Duncan, what do you feel about the Florida law just passed denying a doctor the ability to ask a patient about whether he owns a gun. Do you view this as protecting the patient or a restriction on the freedom of speech. Didn't see you post in that thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I think that law is a load of crap and don't think it will hold up in court, but you never know these days. All you need to do is shop it around to a judge that agrees with you politically and they ignore the constitution when it suits their politics. So you agree with me on three of the 5 examples I posted. The first objection you willingly give up your freedom because you are "for this". How do you treat someone that feels secure when the government illegally wiretaps because they are "for this". I suspect you think they are an ignorant fool. I feel no different. Regarding medicare, SS and medicaid you actually ask how it gives up my freedom? Really? Do you know how much extra money I would have right now to prepare myself to take care of my retirement, healthcare, etc. It's amazing how leftists can suspend reality and claim the income a person makes, the career choices, sacrifices, effort, intelligence and everything else involved in a persons work are excluded from the discussion of freedom. I'll leave alone the cheap shot on the gun issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 ]Just curious Duncan, what do you feel about the Florida law just passed denying a doctor the ability to ask a patient about whether he owns a gun. Do you view this as protecting the patient or a restriction on the freedom of speech. Didn't see you post in that thread. I don't know about him, but since I never got an answer in the thread, so I'll ask it again here. What reason is there for a doctor to ask about guns in a home besides safety of the patient/other occupants of the home (which the law ALLOWS)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Wasn't intended as a cheap shot... just a joke. For what it's worth, I don't equate money to freedom. Or at least money doesn't equal freedom. In other words, if I buy an eight dollar beer at Fed Ex during a 'skins game I have lost no freedom even though I could buy that same beer elsewhere for much less. As to the religion in school issue, my stance has always been about exclusion and force. If you force me to say your prayer despite my religious convictions or if you display your religious iconography, but deny me the right to display mine then I have a problem. If you want me to stand respectfully or if you want to pray in my vicinity, you should have the right to do so. I certainly don't like either the eminent domain or this property thing you have posited. If I own the property, you should not be able to force me to sell unless I fail on my mortgage or something similar. I tend to be more liberal on the gun control side and I am for restrictions in your freedoms in that regards. I believe in waiting periods, mandatory safety classes, FBI security checks, I'm not in favor of you having teflon bullets designed to go through armor, etc. But I acknowledge that you are right that my feelings or reasoning if acted on would lessen my and others' freedom. As for the health care stuff, I do believe that we have a mutual responsibity to each other. I believe that socialism whether in the form of public education or health care is a reasonable and good thing for a society to share the burden and benefit of. It makes us stronger. So, I don't mind sharing that expense. Again, giving you my money doesn't prevent me from going where I want, saying what I want, worshipping how I want, expressing myself through action, clothes, art as I want, etc. So, I don't view these as a diminishment of freedom. Edit: On the wiretapping, I can imagine a circumstance where the issue is so dire that we need to suspend rights for the greatest good. My biggest problem with this though was that there was no reason for it. The FISA court approved over 98% of applications for warrants and even allowed a scenario where they could apply for the warrant after the fact if the situation demanded. That being the case, this was an unnecessary infringement and intrusion onto our rights. I don't know if we agree or disagree on that. ---------- Post added July-20th-2011 at 09:16 PM ---------- HH, In my view (and I think yours) even qualifying that freedom of speech is unnecessary and wrong esp. if the question does not slander or incite violence. It's just a dangerous step in censoring our freedoms and we should be wary of any such tresspass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 If I'm a doctor in a private practice why can't I ask that question? Of course, I doubt he is so offended when the government imposes a ban on smoking in a privately owned bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 ]HH,In my view (and I think yours) even qualifying that freedom of speech is unnecessary and wrong esp. if the question does not slander or incite violence. It's just a dangerous step in censoring our freedoms and we should be wary of any such tresspass. So there isn't one. It doesn't slander or incite violence if your doctor puts your entire medical history on the radio. But I suspect that you're in favor of preventing that, right? I know I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 So there isn't one.It doesn't slander or incite violence if your doctor puts your entire medical history on the radio. But I suspect that you're in favor of preventing that, right? I know I am. Ah, but there's a difference there. If I do that I'm invading your right to privacy. If I ask you a question that's not an invasion of privacy because you can tell me to shaddup. It's your choice to share that information or not. As a doctor, I have the right to use that information in treating you, but I am not to disclose it to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Let's put conversation about the Florida/doctor/gun topic in the existing thread that's actually devoted to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I liked Jumbo Moses better. But seriously, as has been demonstrated in this very thread, I think "freedom" and "liberty" are words that should be revered, but are thrown around far to carelessly. Don't point the finger at the other side and say, "They're trying to steal all of our freedoms!" and then turn around and try to do the same thing in another area. It's really a shame that words that are so monumentally important in the fabric, and the language, of who we are, are used more to damage than to celebrate these days. Both sides do it. I've probably done it at some point. But when it happens, it should be called out and corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Sorry about that, chief. Missed the topic by that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Sorry about that, chief. Missed the topic by that much. I think the ball was in, but he's the chair ump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 You can have your civil liberties back the next election. It's time to stop putting responsibilty on elected leaders and back where it belongs, the voters that gave them job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 You can have your civil liberties back the next election. It's time to stop putting responsibilty on elected leaders and back where it belongs, the voters that gave them job. I thought that was the point of THIS election. :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Fair enough, I take you at your word it was a joke. It certainly is often hard to tell on a message board. I know i've come across the wrong way on occasion. It's funny, I've read a your posts for a number of years and you would be surprised, if we sat down for a beer, how many issues in which we would agree. I was compelled to post because you wrote about a loss of freedom yet it's clear you pick and chose what freedoms you value. I personally find it very dangerous when freedom becomes political. There are so many contradictions in your last post. Anyway, I don't want you be published or work for NPR. I'm not sure you can be entrusted to be an objective journalist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Well, I think we all agree to compromise our freedoms and I think it is necessary. Total freedom would be anarchy and no one wants that. The question is, which transgressions impede versus protect us. It can be a difficult balancing act. I think the prayer issue is actually a good example of that. Though I don't find Christmas trees, Christmas songs, prayer in school to be harmful I can say that at times it definitely made me feel ostracized even though that was almost never the intent. Still, I think you need the right to worship as you will and I hope that I am allowed to worship as I will. For those who don't worship or who come into a moment of worship, I hope there's no one attempts to impose something on them that goes against their beliefs. In other words, don't force me to kneel at the altar of the flying spaghetti monster, but I have no problems if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Well, I think we all agree to compromise our freedoms and I think it is necessary. Total freedom would be anarchy and no one wants that. The question is, which transgressions impede versus protect us. It can be a difficult balancing act. I think the prayer issue is actually a good example of that.Though I don't find Christmas trees, Christmas songs, prayer in school to be harmful I can say that at times it definitely made me feel ostracized even though that was almost never the intent. Still, I think you need the right to worship as you will and I hope that I am allowed to worship as I will. For those who don't worship or who come into a moment of worship, I hope there's no one attempts to impose something on them that goes against their beliefs. In other words, don't force me to kneel at the altar of the flying spaghetti monster, but I have no problems if you want to. And I'm secure enough in my beliefs that I'll go watch them hang a big Flying Spaghetti Monster in the town square, and play dreidel with you as they do it, before going to church. "...nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It's my favorite part. And the least often quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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