The Case for Second-Chance Quarterbacks

[Oldfan]

From the other thread I have up on the board:

Shkspr ~ How good a position would we be in if we'd traded the pick that would become Patrick Ramsey the year before and got Drew Brees?

Brees was expensive and high risk because of the shoulder surgery. Only the Saints and Dolphins were interested at the price.

I think the team would have fared far better than it did if Ramsey had been developed as Campbell was.

Jason’s mechanics were completely redone. Al Saunders started the project and Jim Zorn completed it. Their efforts made Jason decent. Patrick never had that. He was never anybody’s guy.

Ramsey was raw. He couldn’t throw a fade and lacked touch on his deep throws. Those things can be taught. In fact, when last seen in preseason with the Saints, he threw four beautiful fades right on target.

Without a coach willing and able to develop him, Patrick still played fairly well for Spurrier and Gibbs (2004) in below-standard NFL schemes.

For comparison, in Redskins games started:

Ramsey 10-14 (.417)

Brunell 15-18 (.455)

Campbell 20-32 (.385)

In addition to developing the QB, there’s the matter of adjusting a scheme to the QB. Suppose a coach had the foresight to put Ramsey in the shotgun. Peyton is in the gun almost 75% of his passes, Brady almost 65%. The shotgun with a special emphasis on intermediate range passes would have been ideal for Patrick Ramsey.

How much has it cost us to replace Ramsey?

Gibbs spent a #3 pick for Brunell

Having spent that #3, it cost a #4 to move up and take Cooley in the draft

Gibbs spent a #1, #3 and #4 for Jason

Shanahan spent a #2 and a #4 for McNabb

That adds up to six picks: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 spent to replace Patrick Ramsey.

That’s enough ammunition to draft a high-grade offensive line. With a high grade O-line you can make a Grade B quarterback look like he’s a Grade-A.

With good coaching, I think Patrick Ramsey could have been better than Jason Campbell, not an elite QB, but above average. However, that opinion is certainly debatable. The point that I’m making here is that his coaches really didn’t give him much of a chance to succeed even though we had a number one pick invested in him.

On a poll in this forum taken when Ramsey was traded, two out of three members voted that Patrick Ramsey hadn’t been given a fair shot with this team.

John Beck hasn’t been given much of a chance to succeed in his previous stops. Maybe Mike can do for him, what Spurrier and Gibbs did not do for Ramsey --give him a real shot. Develop his skillset and adjust the scheme to fit his strengths.

The Tampa Bucs gave up on Steve Young. Bill Walsh traded the last pick in the fourth round for him. Young was lucky to get his chance to play with a well-run organization. I think there are lots of good QBs who haven't been given a real chance to succeed.

The title of my thread calls them “second-chance quarterbacks,” but those I refer to never really had a first chance.

[darrelgreenie]

John Beck hasn’t been given much of a chance to succeed in his previous stops. Maybe Mike can do for him, what Spurrier and Gibbs did not do for Ramsey. Give him a real shot. Develop his skillset and adjust the scheme to fit his strengths.

The Tampa Bucs gave up on Steve Young. Bill Walsh traded the last pick in the fourth round for him. Young was lucky to get his chance to play with a well-run organization. I think there are lots of good QBs who aren’t give a real chance to succeed.

The title of my thread calls them “second-chance quarterbacks,” but those I refer to never really had a first chance.

Mike Shanahan likes second chance players in general and at the QB position he's had success with a few.

Tangent:

I've alway thought/said a bad organization can never have a "franchise" QB because they'll screw him up.

Its one of the reasons why I have a lot of respect for the career Campbell has put together.

He's been thrown into 2 of the worst situations in the NFL and has managed to survive and perform at a decent level despite the incompetency that has surrounding him for most of his career.

I think a QB's success is as /if not more dependent on their situation i.e. coaching staff/system, front office, surrounding talent then their own ability.

And I believe the talent gap bewtween most NFL QBs isn't as wide as most fans like to think.

I think it will continue to decrease as the rules make toughness less important.

[Oldfan]

Mike Shanahan likes second chance players in general and at the QB position he's had success with a few.

Tangent:

I've alway thought/said a bad organization can never have a "franchise" QB because they'll screw him up.

Its one of the reasons why I have a lot of respect for the career Campbell has put together.

He's been thrown into 2 of the worst situations in the NFL and has managed to survive and perform at a decent level despite the incompetency that has surrounding him for most of his career.

I think a QB's success is as /if not more dependent on their situation i.e. coaching staff/system, front office, surrounding talent then their own ability.

And I believe the talent gap bewtween most NFL QBs isn't as wide as most fans like to think.

I think it will continue to decrease as the rules make toughness less important.

Those are all good observations. I agree completely.

[Chump Bailey]

Do you recall what prompted Gibbs to yank PR from that Bears game? I have always been bothered by that. He was playing well if memory serves.

[bushwack]

Do you recall what prompted Gibbs to yank PR from that Bears game? I have always been bothered by that. He was playing well if memory serves.

I thought PR almost had his head ripped off by a Bears defender in that game, and had to come out because of an injury and Brunell took the spot and ran with it.

[Chump Bailey]

I thought PR almost had his head ripped off by a Bears defender in that game, and had to come out because of an injury and Brunell took the spot and ran with it.

I thought PR was okay and wanted to come back in, but Gibbs did not allow it. That essentially ended his career as a Redskin I think. Maybe PR and Gibbs butted heads.

[Burgold]

Yup, that's true. Ramsey also had a really bad preseason if memory serves and so his leash was short.

[dg28daman]

It always annoyed me how many chances Jason got, when Ramsey never got any of that. Jason never looked as good as Pat did during his first game against the Titans.

Patrick still had one of the strongest arms I've seen in the league, bar none. He had no touch, but as mentioned in the OP, he could have been dangerous with a little bit of coaching and,say, an O-line that didn't leave him there to die.

Beck was in a similar situation to Patrick during his time with the Dolphins in that his O-line was basically swiss cheese. I for one am excited to see what he can do.

[Oldfan]

Do you recall what prompted Gibbs to yank PR from that Bears game? I have always been bothered by that. He was playing well if memory serves.

Joe Gibbs gave up a #3 pick and $7 mil per year to bring Brunell in. That's not backup money. Brunell was his guy. Ramsey was a gunslinger. Gibbs was turnover-phobic. He wanted a game manager.

Ramsey threw a TD pass to Cooley in the first period of the Bears game that was called back because of a penalty. On the next play, Jansen found himself opposed by two rushers. He whiffed on both. Ramsey avoided one, the other took his head off. Patrick fumbled. Left the game. He could have come back and played, but Gibbs stuck with Brunell.

If the TD to Cooley had been allowed to stand, Patrick would have stayed in the game and Gibbs would have had to wait for another day to yank him for Brunell.

[chipwhich]

Yup, that's true. Ramsey also had a really bad preseason if memory serves and so his leash was short.

Gibbs never had any intention of Ramsey being the starter. I think there was outside pressure on him for Ramsey to be the QB. Gibbs NEVER pulled QB's like he did Ramsey.

As a tie in to OLDfan.

I have always wondered what would have been had we gone after Brees. How different might our franchise be.

[KDawg]

I don't disagree that perhaps we yanked the plug on Ramsey early, however, Ramsey has bounced from team to team in the NFL and has wound up being a starter for none of them. Does that necessarily tell us that he couldn't have succeeded as a Redskin QB if he had been given a longer rope? No. But it does tell us that he's not a league caliber starting quarterback.

John Beck has only made one other stop in the NFL, and I think its foolish to give up on the guy without seeing what he has. Signing a FA to come in would be a mistake. I'd rather take a ride with Beck and see what we have. Best case scenario, he has the trust of the team and wins some games. Worst case sceanrio is we stink out and get a high draft pick, which allows us to draft someone like Andrew Luck. I don't see the downside in starting Beck this season. At all.

[Oldfan]

I don't disagree that perhaps we yanked the plug on Ramsey early, however, Ramsey has bounced from team to team in the NFL and has wound up being a starter for none of them. Does that necessarily tell us that he couldn't have succeeded as a Redskin QB if he had been given a longer rope? No. But it does tell us that he's not a league caliber starting quarterback.

At what point in his career did a coach try to develop his talent or adjust a scheme to his strengths? He has the talent. He has the intelligence. Maybe he's gunshy in the pocket, ruined by Spurrier as some claim. I don't know.

What I'm sure about is that he didn't get a fair opportunity here.

[KDawg]

At what point in his career did a coach try to develop his talent or adjust a scheme to his strengths? He has the talent. He has the intelligence. Maybe he's gunshy in the pocket, ruined by Spurrier as some claim. I don't know.

What I'm sure about is that he didn't get a fair opportunity here.

And yet not one coach has seen him as a quarterback that they want to invest time in. It's quite possible he doesn't have the talent you think he has. That said, I agree with the last line. He didn't get a fair opportunity here.

[paloosa]

From the other thread I have up on the board:

Brees was expensive and high risk because of the shoulder surgery. Only the Saints and Dolphins were interested at the price.

I think the team would have fared far better than it did if Ramsey had been developed as Campbell was.

Jason’s mechanics were completely redone. Al Saunders started the project and Jim Zorn completed it. Their efforts made Jason decent. Patrick never had that. He was never anybody’s guy.

Ramsey was raw. He couldn’t throw a fade and lacked touch on his deep throws. Those things can be taught. In fact, when last seen in preseason with the Saints, he threw four beautiful fades right on target.

Without a coach willing and able to develop him, Patrick still played fairly well for Spurrier and Gibbs (2004) in below-standard NFL schemes.

For comparison, in Redskins games started:

Ramsey 10-14 (.417)

Brunell 15-18 (.455)

Campbell 20-32 (.385)

In addition to developing the QB, there’s the matter of adjusting a scheme to the QB. Suppose a coach had the foresight to put Ramsey in the shotgun. Peyton is in the gun almost 75% of his passes, Brady almost 65%. The shotgun with a special emphasis on intermediate range passes would have been ideal for Patrick Ramsey.

How much has it cost us to replace Ramsey?

Gibbs spent a #3 pick for Brunell

Having spent that #3, it cost a #4 to move up and take Cooley in the draft

Gibbs spent a #1, #3 and #4 for Jason

Shanahan spent a #2 and a #4 for McNabb

That adds up to six picks: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 spent to replace Patrick Ramsey.

That’s enough ammunition to draft a high-grade offensive line. With a high grade O-line you can make a Grade B quarterback look like he’s a Grade-A.

With good coaching, I think Patrick Ramsey could have been better than Jason Campbell, not an elite QB, but above average. However, that opinion is certainly debatable. The point that I’m making here is that his coaches really didn’t give him much of a chance to succeed even though we had a number one pick invested in him.

On a poll in this forum taken when Ramsey was traded, two out of three members voted that Patrick Ramsey hadn’t been given a fair shot with this team.

John Beck hasn’t been given much of a chance to succeed in his previous stops. Maybe Mike can do for him, what Spurrier and Gibbs did not do for Ramsey. Give him a real shot. Develop his skillset and adjust the scheme to fit his strengths.

The Tampa Bucs gave up on Steve Young. Bill Walsh traded the last pick in the fourth round for him. Young was lucky to get his chance to play with a well-run organization. I think there are lots of good QBs who haven't been given a real chance to succeed.

The title of my thread calls them “second-chance quarterbacks,” but those I refer to never really had a first chance.

Ramsey was never that good IMHO. He never displayed the toughness that Campbell did. Ramsey went to Tulane and it isn't exactly the school you look for a QB. QB's that go to schools like Tulane are going their because they aren't as good as the other QB's in the bigger college. But that is not always the case as you will bring up Big Ben, Flacco, and several others that have done very well. I think Gibbs gave Ramsey the chance to succeed but Ramsey was ruined before Gibbs got there by Spurrier. Spurrier hasn't coached a successful NFL QB in his entire college coaching career. So going into all the draft picks we wasted on other QB's or Cooley is just taking stabs in the dark. Second-chance QB's don't always work out because they again are not as good as the guys they are trying to replace. Steve Young aand Drew Brees are exceptions to the rule. But I do agree with you that a good O-Line makes anyone look good behind it.

[chipwhich]

How much has it cost us to replace Ramsey?

Gibbs spent a #3 pick for Brunell

Having spent that #3, it cost a #4 to move up and take Cooley in the draft

Gibbs spent a #1, #3 and #4 for Jason

Shanahan spent a #2 and a #4 for McNabb

That adds up to six picks: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 spent to replace Patrick Ramsey.

Oldfan, this in itself should be it's own thread with regards to free agency and drafting.

So many discussions regarding FA and drafting and how to build rosters...do we or don't we build via a free agent...not only have the Redskins been too heavily focused on free agency, but it's the Free Agency with draft pick bonus which has really been the destructive force for the Redskins. Not only will I take your old guy, but I will raise you a couple of high picks as a thank you.

Hopefully as we dabble in the free agency market, we never toss out anymore thank you draft picks.

[Oldfan]

Ramsey was never that good IMHO. He never displayed the toughness that Campbell did. Ramsey went to Tulane and it isn't exactly the school you look for a QB. QB's that go to schools like Tulane are going their because they aren't as good as the other QB's in the bigger college. But that is not always the case as you will bring up Big Ben, Flacco, and several others that have done very well. I think Gibbs gave Ramsey the chance to succeed but Ramsey was ruined before Gibbs got there by Spurrier. Spurrier hasn't coached a successful NFL QB in his entire college coaching career. So going into all the draft picks we wasted on other QB's or Cooley is just taking stabs in the dark. Second-chance QB's don't always work out because they again are not as good as the guys they are trying to replace. Steve Young aand Drew Brees are exceptions to the rule. But I do agree with you that a good O-Line makes anyone look good behind it.

We disagree on Ramsey's potential, but that debate has been done many times before in this forum.

I don't know how you can claim that he got a fair shake from Gibbs. That isn't even a close call in my mind.

[DieselPwr44]

Ramsey was never that good IMHO. He never displayed the toughness that Campbell did.

The dude got his head caved in for 2 yrs. Meanwhile, Campbell was whining about his feelings being hurt or having to learn another offense. So yeah, Jason was real tough.

[paloosa]

I don't disagree that perhaps we yanked the plug on Ramsey early, however, Ramsey has bounced from team to team in the NFL and has wound up being a starter for none of them. Does that necessarily tell us that he couldn't have succeeded as a Redskin QB if he had been given a longer rope? No. But it does tell us that he's not a league caliber starting quarterback.

John Beck has only made one other stop in the NFL, and I think its foolish to give up on the guy without seeing what he has. Signing a FA to come in would be a mistake. I'd rather take a ride with Beck and see what we have. Best case scenario, he has the trust of the team and wins some games. Worst case sceanrio is we stink out and get a high draft pick, which allows us to draft someone like Andrew Luck. I don't see the downside in starting Beck this season. At all.

You want to take a chance on a guy that had a chance to prove his worth in Miami but never showed he can be the man. Not bringing in a FA to create competition is the best way to succeed in becoming a starting caliber QB besides we need another QB on our roster besides Beck and McNabb. McNabb is supposely gone according to the media and a lot of Skins fans. But nothing has been verified or confirmed by aanyone in the Redskins organization. Starting Beck to get to Luck is just another bad move because no one will know if Luck will work out better that anyone currently in the NFL.

[Oldfan]

And yet not one coach has seen him as a quarterback that they want to invest time in. It's quite possible he doesn't have the talent you think he has. That said, I agree with the last line. He didn't get a fair opportunity here.

Well, if I was wrong about Patrick's potential, I'm in good company. Jaws and Aikman were still in my camp long after Ramsey left here.

[KDawg]

You want to take a chance on a guy that had a chance to prove his worth in Miami but never showed he can be the man. Not bringing in a FA to create competition is the best way to succeed in becoming a starting caliber QB besides we need another QB on our roster besides Beck and McNabb. McNabb is supposely gone according to the media and a lot of Skins fans. But nothing has been verified or confirmed by aanyone in the Redskins organization. Starting Beck to get to Luck is just another bad move because no one will know if Luck will work out better that anyone currently in the NFL.

You apparently didn't read anything I said.

You wouldn't start Beck to get Luck. You'd start Beck because you have nothing to lose. It's a lockout offseason, there aren't any names that really fit our system in free agency. Why spend money on a QB to come in and be a stop gap? Obviously, whoever we sign likely won't be the future.

Signing competition is fine, but let's not sign a QB thinking we're finding the magic elixir.

The point of the post you quoted was that starting Beck is a positive in two ways: 1) We see what we have in a guy who has been on our roster for a year that we acquired for Doug Dutch. If he pans out, we STOLE a quarterback. 2) If he doesn't pan out, we could be in position to draft a young guy to be the future. I honestly don't see the negative. The negative is only apparent to those who don't have patience, or think that Rome was built in a day.

[paloosa]

The dude got his head caved in for 2 yrs. Meanwhile, Campbell was whining about his feelings being hurt or having to learn another offense. So yeah, Jason was real tough.

He may have cried about the changing of the offense but he got up every time he was knocked down. I agree that Ramsey got slaughtered because of Spurrier's system. Campbell learned all of those systems and played well but because of the O-line woes that have plagued this team was the problem with every QB that we had from Spurrier until now. So the QB position on this team will never be successful until that is addressed. None of the premier QB's would have faired any better.

[KDawg]

Well, if I was wrong about Patrick's potential, I'm in good company. Jaws and Aikman were still in my camp long after Ramsey left here.

And if I'm right I'm in good company, NFL coaches. Either way, there are supporters and non supporters to the opinion, just like anything in this world.

[DieselPwr44]

He may have cried about the changing of the offense but he got up every time he was knocked down. I agree that Ramsey got slaughtered because of Spurrier's system. Campbell learned all of those systems and played well but because of the O-line woes that have plagued this team was the problem with every QB that we had from Spurrier until now. So the QB position on this team will never be successful until that is addressed. None of the premier QB's would have faired any better.

Jason Campell is a below average QB that has a good game once in awhile...in other words, he's mediocre.

He will never lead a team to a championship in this league.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

The dude got his head caved in for 2 yrs. Meanwhile, Campbell was whining about his feelings being hurt or having to learn another offense. So yeah, Jason was real tough.

+1+1+1

[darrelgreenie]

I think its funny how people acknowledge the dumpster fire that was our FO, they bash Zorn for his coaching, they acknowledge the lack of pass protection yet the still have such a lack of objectivity towards Jason Campbell ,who put up the same numbers in 2009 as Carson Palmer.

Then Campbell gets thrown into another terrible situation and puts up better numbers then our QB.