The Case for Second-Chance Quarterbacks

[KCClybun]

...

*HEADDESK*

Anyway! Second chance quarterbacks! Let's go back to talking about that.

[darrelgreenie]

Because Brady is more talented.

But, that doesn't make the fact that Belichick is a football genius any less true. It's not QUITE plug and play, there. Brady is extremely talented.

I agree.

Say whatever you want about Brady but the guy was/is talented.

I think people like to justify their own failing to notice his talent by making him seemed like a terribly flawed prospect.

I always look at throwing motion first and foremost (except for Tebow).

And whenever most people talk about Brady as a college prospect I can't believe how few/if any mention how well the guy throws the football.

Brady had/has a good stroke on him.

Solid and consistent classic over the top throwing motion.

Very little wasted movement, very fluid, fundamentally sound throwing motion.

[Oldfan]

I agree.

Say whatever you want about Brady but the guy was/is talented.

I think people like to justify their own failing to notice his talent by making him seemed like a terribly flawed prospect.

I always look at throwing motion first and foremost (except for Tebow).

And whenever most people talk about Brady as a college prospect I can't believe how few/if any mention how well the guy throws the football.

Brady had/has a good stroke on him.

Solid and consistent classic over the top throwing motion.

Very little wasted movement, very fluid, fundamentally sound throwing motion.

I don't know what you consider "classic." Tom Brady's release point isn't as high as most scouts like to see. Personally, I like that.

I saw a video clip of him talking to a group of young QBs. I heard him saying that "you want to keep the ball where you can feel the bicep," or words to that effect. I like that idea too, but it runs counter to a high release. The higher the release, the less bicep involvement.

[darrelgreenie]

I agree on almost all accounts but I don't think toughness will ever decrease in a meaningful way for QBs no matter what rule changes are enacted. Rules are also changed just to hold the status quo in response to the changing bodies of NFL athletes. I also think all forms of toughness are one of the most important factors in whether a QB succeeds or fails no matter his surrounding conditions..

I think toughness is very important.

That's why the rule changes bug me.

I hope you're right; I would like to think the rule changes won't effect defenders especially DL and pass rushers.

But, imo I've already noticed it happening.(defenders pulling up and what not)

I just hope it doesn't get any worse.

[Gabbert]...was a physically strong and tough and big bodied QB who was smart and seemed to have a great mental attitude. He's the type of player that can thrive in a bad situation. He did it at Missouri this season when you think about it.

That's a big part of the reason I liked Jake Locker. I think when most college QB enter the pros they have to deal with their offense unit not being superior to the defenses they face, which was often the case in college.

Imo Jake is the opposite his NFL offensive unit will be a more evenly matched against the defense they'll then his college.

[KCClybun]

I don't know what you consider "classic." Tom Brady's release point isn't as high as most scouts like to see. Personally, I like that.

I saw a video clip of him talking to a group of young QBs. I heard him saying that "you want to keep the ball where you can feel the bicep," or words to that effect. I like that idea too, but it runs counter to a high release. The higher the release, the less bicep involvement.

He won three rings with that release so he must be doing somethin' right...

[DC9]

That speaks more to the general insanity of the Colts putting all their eggs in the Manning basket and keeping guys like Jim Sorgi and Curtis Painter around even though they know they can't win with those guys at quarterback than it does to Tom Brady being a "system guy", as seems to be the general point you and Oldfan have. Ideally what you want is a franchise quarterback and a guy who can take over the reigns competently until the franchise guy can get healthy again. The Colts said "screwed that, we're going with Manning every year!" with little regard to the fact that Petyon may actually get injured and then they'll be really screwed, if preseason and every time they rest their starters is any indication.

It's not like Cassel was some rookie who came off the bench and played well. He was on the team for three years, was properly developed, and was deeply ingrained in the offense. He's a talented guy. The Pats covered their bases by ensuring that a guy would be ready in the event Brady ever went down.

The whole team is built around Peyton Manning because he can handle it. The defense is built to hold a lead. Two pass rushing DEs....cover 2 scheme. They can get away with that because they have Manning. And yes...all of their eggs are in that basket, but it works.

Belechek is a defensive genius, and well known micromanager. Who better to gameplan your offense, or to "notice" what the defense is doing to stop your offense. Granted, Brady has to make all of the reads, but without Belechek, the Pats are just another average ball club.

Put Brady back there with the Colts and it's over. Smart cat, but no where near the football IQ of Peyton Manning.

HAIL!

[darrelgreenie]

I don't know what you consider "classic." Tom Brady's release point isn't as high as most scouts like to see. Personally, I like that.

I saw a video clip of him talking to a group of young QBs. I heard him saying that "you want to keep the ball where you can feel the bicep," or words to that effect. I like that idea too, but it runs counter to a high release. The higher the release, the less bicep involvement.

I would bet that he was talking about holding the ball prior to the release the phase of the throwing motion when the ball is "****ed"

But just look at the clip below and you can see Brady releases the ball over his head with his arm extended.

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[Oldfan]

DG ~ I would bet that he was talking about holding the ball prior to the release the phase of the throwing motion when the ball is "****ed.”

I suppose that’s possible, but I doubt it. Keeping the bicep involved as much as possible throughout the motion results in a more compact motion with less shoulder involvement.

But just look at the clip below and you can see Brady releases the ball over his head with his arm extended.

How can you tell a release point looking at the QB from that angle? Even a three-quarter motion would look high when you are looking down on a QB and from his left side.

It’s my impression that, at release, Brady’s right forearm is a little outside vertical and the upper arm just about horizontal. The release point is over his head, but not as high as Blaine Gabbert’s, for example. I like Brady’s more compact motion better than Gabbert's, but I get the impression that Gabbert's is what most scouts want to see.

You used the word "classic." I don't think there is a classic motion. The word seems to suggest universal agreement among experts that doesn't exist.

[darrelgreenie]

How can you tell a release point looking at the QB from that angle? Even a three-quarter motion would look high when you are looking down on a QB and from his left side.

I think the clip gives a good look at his motion, and I can see his release point plain as day.

But, if you can find a better vid then by all means.

But a 3/4 motion would still look like a 3/4 motion.

It’s my impression that, at release, Brady’s right forearm is a little outside vertical and the upper arm just about horizontal. The release point is over his head, but not as high as Blaine Gabbert’s, for example. I like Brady’s more compact motion better than Gabbert's, but I get the impression that Gabbert's is what most scouts want to see.

Yeah, that's what I said Brady's motion is over his head, I don't think Gabbert release point is much higher then Brady's but we all have different eyes. (Gabbert has a nice motion too)

You used the word "classic." I don't think there is a classic motion. The word seems to suggest universal agreement among experts that doesn't exist.

My full statement was classic over the top throwing motion, and I think most coaches consider an over the top throwing motion ideal as opposed to a 3/4, full side arm, or 'shot put' and I've often heard/read an over the top throwing motion refered to as "classic".

There's even a step-by-step teaching decive used to help young QB develop an over the top throwing motion:

o elbow your brother

o touch the ceiling

o pull the window shade (or close the window)

o flick a booger

[bigricky3469]

Like someone already said, "A bad organization can never have a franchise QB because they will screw him up." Before Snyder bought this team we were on the verge of returning to greatness with a weak but ingenues offensive minded coach named Norv Turner. Once Mr. Cooke died everything and I mean everything seemed to go down hill. We had just discovered our next franchise QB only to watch him sign with the Rams because of the limbo that force the Skins to not be able to go after him adequately. From that point the trading picks to find our next top QB begin. We gave up a 1st to land Brad Johnson who posted a +4000 yard season and helped us to our last division title. After that season Mr. Synder then firers Charley Casserly only to bring in his butt boy and then the season from hell and it's pretty much been a very bad organization from that point forward. I wish he sell me the team the bloody ****.

[Darrell Green Fan]

Back to Ramsey there is a reason he has played on 9 teams in 10 years. It's because he just isn't very good. I never bought the idea that SS "ruined" him. Sure he took a beating and that toughness was what most of us loved about the guy. Hell I was in the camp that thought he might turn into a good QB. But alas he just couldn't play, that should be obvious.

[MartinC]

Back to Ramsey there is a reason he has played on 9 teams in 10 years. It's because he just isn't very good. I never bought the idea that SS "ruined" him. Sure he took a beating and that toughness was what most of us loved about the guy. Hell I was in the camp that thought he might turn into a good QB. But alas he just couldn't play, that should be obvious.

Disagree. This is ancient (and painful) history but Ramsey was leading the NFL in passing yardage after about 4 games in Spurriers first year. Then the whole NFL worked out how to beat the fun 'n' Gun - blitz the heck out of it. Spurrier was too busy playing golf and too in love with his system to make any adjustments (he would not even put in something as simple as a hot read). Ramsey was knocked gun shy IMO (excuse the pun) - its hard playing QB when you KNOW you are going to get killed and have no ability to adjust the play or have automatics in your play call to cater for the blitz everyone in the stadium can see coming.

Ramsey had some issues, he lacked touch on his deep throws, was not good at bucket throws but he had a good NFL arm and decent accuracy. In the right system with better coaching and talent around him he could have made a good NFL starter IMO.

Like I said though ancient history.

[Oldfan]

Disagree. This is ancient (and painful) history but Ramsey was leading the NFL in passing yardage after about 4 games in Spurriers first year. Then the whole NFL worked out how to beat the fun 'n' Gun - blitz the heck out of it. Spurrier was too busy playing golf and too in love with his system to make any adjustments (he would not even put in something as simple as a hot read). Ramsey was knocked gun shy IMO (excuse the pun) - its hard playing QB when you KNOW you are going to get killed and have no ability to adjust the play or have automatics in your play call to cater for the blitz everyone in the stadium can see coming.

Ramsey had some issues' date=' he lacked touch on his deep throws, was not good at bucket throws but he had a good NFL arm and decent accuracy. In the right system with better coaching and talent around him he could have made a good NFL starter IMO.

Like I said though ancient history.[/quote']We are supposed to try to learn from the past. I used our past to make the case that, because so many QBs are mishandled, second chance QBs represent opportunities to get a good one cheaply.

Taking this a step further, I have been considering the idea, that the QB position might be an exception to the rule that we should rely primarily on the draft to find players.

Since they are so tough to evaluate, spending a #1 on a QB is high risk. It isn’t just the money and the pick, but the games lost while you get him ready for a fair trial.

Think about those six picks: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 spent to replace Patrick Ramsey. That’s a top notch O-line. Any QB playing behind it, in a QB-friendly scheme, will play very close to his peak potential.

[MartinC]

We are supposed to try to learn from the past. I used our past to make the case that, because so many QBs are mishandled, second chance QBs represent opportunities to get a good one cheaply.

Taking this a step further, I have been considering the idea, that the QB position might be an exception to the rule that we should rely primarily on the draft to find players.

Since they are so tough to evaluate, spending a #1 on a QB is high risk. It isn’t just the money and the pick, but the games lost while you get him ready for a fair trial.

Think about those six picks: 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 spent to replace Patrick Ramsey. That’s a top notch O-line. Any QB playing behind it, in a QB-friendly scheme, will play very close to his peak potential.

Dont disagree. This cost of finding your QB is one of the reasons if you recall I argued that the value of finding a grade A QB was higher than just the positional value - you save so much opportunity cost in blown draft picks and free agent dollars trying to find one.

I think you look for your QB wherever you can find one. If Shanny is right about Beck and he can make him at worst a decent starting QB and at best catch lightening in a jar and make him a good/very good one then that would save us spending a 1st round pick next year on say Landry Jones or trading the farm and a second mortgage to trade up to get Luck. Then we have 3 years working out what we have.

Whether its Beck, Grossman, some other free agent or a rookie next year I do think they are in better hands with Mike Shanahan than Ramsey was with Spurrier. Gibbs had made his mind up on Pat before he got here and once he traded for Brunnel the writing was on the wall for Ramsey as a Redskin.

If Beck flops then I cant see us doing anything other than taking a QB high in the 1st round next year.

[Oldfan]

...If Beck flops then I cant see us doing anything other than taking a QB high in the 1st round next year.

I haven't seen enough of most of the free agent QBs to evaluate them properly. Ideally, I'd like to see Mike bring in another under-30 guy he thinks is undervalued to compete with Beck. Taking two shots at the prize obviously cuts the odds against success of the second-chance QB move in half.

If they both fail, I'd rather see him try two more in 2012 unless he's really high on a #1 pick.

[MartinC]

I haven't seen enough of most of the free agent QBs to evaluate them properly. Ideally, I'd like to see Mike bring in another under-30 guy he thinks is undervalued to compete with Beck. Taking two shots at the prize obviously cuts the odds against success of the second-chance QB move in half.

If they both fail, I'd rather see him try two more in 2012 unless he's really high on a #1 pick.

Free agent QB picking are slim to none this year, especially if you look under 30.

[veteranskinsfan]

I have a Ramsey jersey. I thought we gave up too early on him for sure. He came from the area In Pennsylvania where good high school quarterbacks had some good success in the NFL. I like the fact that you showed all the picks we wasted trying to replace him too.

[Oldfan]

I have a Ramsey jersey. I thought we gave up too early on him for sure. He came from the area In Pennsylvania where good high school quarterbacks had some good success in the NFL. I like the fact that you showed all the picks we wasted trying to replace him too.

Thanks, VSF.

Sorry about this, but I'm from the area in Western PA where the great QBs hail from. Patrick is from Ruston, Lousiana. His mentor in high school was Bert Jones, the "Ruston Rifle," former Baltimore Colts great QB.

---------- Post added July-18th-2011 at 04:54 PM ----------

Free agent QB picking are slim to none this year, especially if you look under 30.

Well, let's give Slim a try.

[darrelgreenie]

Here's a list of QBs I made awhile back in a discussion w/ Tris:

FA: Brodie Croyle, Trent Edwards, J.P. Losman, Matt Moore

Others: Chase Daniel, Matt Flynn, Tarvaris Jackson, Josh Johnson, Matt Lienart, Brady Quinn,

Marc Bulger, Jimmy Clausen,Matt Hasselbeck, Kevin Kolb, Kyle Orton, Vince Young