The Case for Second-Chance Quarterbacks

[KCClybun]

If John Beck does the Dougie after running in for a touchdown, I don't care how bad he is, I'm buying him a jersey. That would be braver than anything else he could do, lol.

[Going Commando]

I'd definitely be open for giving Drew Stanton a look.

None of the options available to us are going to be super appealing so our standards are going to have to be low right now.

Are there any Matt Schaub like backup QBs out there worth looking into? Aside from Kolb that is?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I have just learnt of 'the Dougie', a dance I never knew existed.

ES, the site that just keeps on giving.

Hail.

[PokerPacker]

I'd definitely be open for giving Drew Stanton a look.

None of the options available to us are going to be super appealing so our standards are going to have to be low right now.

Are there any Matt Schaub like backup QBs out there worth looking into? Aside from Kolb that is?

I believe Matt Flynn can be a starting QB in the NFL given a chance, but I don't think we're shopping him.

[KCClybun]

I have just learnt of 'the Dougie', a dance I never knew existed.

ES, the site that just keeps on giving.

Hail.

Anthony Armstrong did it after he scored his first touchdown versus the Packers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15fEdyGE6X0

[Oldfan]

Steve ~ A strong, big bodied (physically tough), smart (mentally tough) QB can carve out a respectable measure of success no matter how dreadful his surrounding circumstances. I think Jason Campbell proved this. Put a QB with those characteristics in a good situation (Matt Ryan, Tom Brady, or Jay Cutler for example) and that QB will be highly productive for several years running.

So in short, my position is that surrounding situation alone can't make a bust or else Jason Campbell never would have made it as long as he did. The prospect himself has to either have a physical or mental flaw too (poor health or lack of heart/guts/confidence).

Steve, your Campbell example doesn’t support your point. Jason got more help on his mechanics from Al Saunders and Jim Zorn than any QB in Redskins history, and maybe even in NFL history. Without it, he would not have made it to the level he’s playing now.

We drafted him because Gibbs is old school, “Mechanics don’t matter as long as you get it there.”

Your description of Tom Brady as “big-bodied and physically tough,” is kind of a stretch too. If the Redskins had drafted skinny Tom Brady to play for Spurrier, Tom might well be living on a disability pension right now. Solid-body Ramsey took a lot of punishment.

[KCClybun]

I believe Matt Flynn can be a starting QB in the NFL given a chance, but I don't think we're shopping him.

I like Flynn a lot, particularly in this kind of offense. But he's going to cost draft picks to get, which effectively takes him off the table, methinks.

And I don't really think Kolb is like a Matt Schaub, either. I think Schaub was more of a "sure thing", so to speak. Kolb, I still have no friggin' clue about.

The class of second tier quarterbacks is filled with guys who have displayed talent that just need a chance. That's why I like Stanton, Moore, Thigpen, and Troy Smith; they showed they had a little more to offer than just being back-ups. I could be wrong, because I'm crap at evaluation quarterbacks...but half the time it seems like the league is crap at evaluating them too. Not that they should just be given a starting job, but they're definitely intriguing options to take a look at, and I'm sure Mike has looked at all these guys and then some A LOT through the lockout.

[Conn]

How about Josh Johnson? Lots of speculation that when he becomes a FA next year, he'll rejoin Harbough in SF to compete with Kaepernick/back him up. Could be an interesting option.

[KCClybun]

How about Josh Johnson? Lots of speculation that when he becomes a FA next year, he'll rejoin Harbough in SF to compete with Kaepernick/back him up. Could be an interesting option.

Josh doesn't strike me as a Shanahan guy. For either Shanahan.

[Oldfan]

I believe Matt Flynn can be a starting QB in the NFL given a chance, but I don't think we're shopping him.

Don't take this as a knock on Flynn. I haven't seen enough of him to form an opinion. But, in general, I would look for a QB who looked bad because of a lousy supporting cast, not one whose performance was enhanced by good supporting talent.

[KCClybun]

Don't take this as a knock on Flynn. I haven't seen enough of him to form an opinion. But, in general, I would look for a QB who looked bad because of a lousy supporting cast, not one whose performance was enhanced by good supporting talent.

That makes it harder to evaluate guys though, in some ways.

[Oldfan]

That makes it harder to evaluate guys though, in some ways.

I evaluate QBs as a scout might: mechanics, athleticism and so on. I look at Tom Brady and see a good, Grade A pocket passer, but not the super-QB that others see.

[KCClybun]

I evaluate QBs as a scout might: mechanics, athleticism and so on. I look at Tom Brady and see a good, Grade A pocket passer, but not the super-QB that others see.

I look at Tom Brady and see a three-time Super Bowl Champion, leader, football legend and possibly the greatest quarterback of all time. Certainly the best of my generation.

Guess that's where we differ.

[Oldfan]

I look at Tom Brady and see a three-time Super Bowl Champion, leader, football legend and possibly the greatest quarterback of all time. Certainly the best of my generation.

I have lots of unpopular opinions, not because I get off on it. I just don't jump on bandwagons before forming my own opinion.

Tom Brady and Marc Bulger were both drafted in the sixth round in the same year. Had Brady gone to the Saints, it's likely that his career would have been hampered by injuries. If Bulger had been taken by the Patriots, I think that today he'd be seen as a sure-fire HOF selection and maybe the best QB of this generation.

When I look at them, I see two Grade-A pocket passers with similar skillsets.

[DieselPwr44]

I have lots of unpopular opinions, not because I get off on it. I just don't jump on bandwagons before forming my own opinion.

Tom Brady and Marc Bulger were both drafted in the sixth round in the same year. Had Brady gone to the Saints, it's likely that his career would have been hampered by injuries. If Bulger had been taken by the Patriots, I think that today he'd be seen as a sure-fire HOF selection and maybe the best QB of this generation.

When I look at them, I see two Grade-A pocket passers with similar skillsets.

Let's conveniently overlook the fact that Bulger has had more offensive talent around him than Brady has for the majority of his career and a coach who had a league wide rep as an offensive guru and still never had the offensive success that Brady has.

Bulger had Marshall Faulk and Steven Jackson in his backfield along with Torry Holt and Issac Bruce to throw to.

Brady's had UDFA's in the backfield along with Corey Dillion and Fred Taylor in the twilight of their careers. Then we have Troy Brown,Deion Branch,David Patten, along with Reche Caldwell for him to throw to. ( I know he had Moss but he didn't arrive until later and was there only briefly).

I would bet you an ice cold beverage that most front office people in this league would find this comparison between Brady and Bulger laughable if proposed to them.

Then again, that's the crazy,"out there" kind of theories that get thrown around on the internet.

[DC9]

I have lots of unpopular opinions, not because I get off on it. I just don't jump on bandwagons before forming my own opinion.

Tom Brady and Marc Bulger were both drafted in the sixth round in the same year. Had Brady gone to the Saints, it's likely that his career would have been hampered by injuries. If Bulger had been taken by the Patriots, I think that today he'd be seen as a sure-fire HOF selection and maybe the best QB of this generation.

When I look at them, I see two Grade-A pocket passers with similar skillsets.

I agree with you whole heartidly on this issue oldfan.

Take Brady off the Pats, they go 11-5 (see Matt Cassell), take Manning off of the Colts, though we haven't seen it, I think it would be catostrophic (6 wins at the most). Belechik may be the best coach since Joe Gibbs, but it's pretty much plug and play with that squad.

HAIL!

HAIL!

---------- Post added July-17th-2011 at 07:43 PM ----------

Bulger had Marshall Faulk and Steven Jackson in his backfield along with Torry Holt and Issac Bruce to throw to.

Both Faulk and Bruce were getting up there. Holt was still very productive. Orlando Pace was also starting to decline.

HAIL!

---------- Post added July-17th-2011 at 07:47 PM ----------

Bulger had Marshall Faulk and Steven Jackson in his backfield along with Torry Holt and Issac Bruce to throw to.

Both Faulk and Bruce were getting up there. Holt was still very productive. Orlando Pace was also starting to decline.

HAIL!

[DieselPwr44]

I agree with you whole heartidly on this issue oldfan.

Take Brady off the Pats, they go 11-5 (see Matt Cassell), take Manning off of the Colts, though we haven't seen it, I think it would be catostrophic (6 wins at the most). Belechik may be the best coach since Joe Gibbs, but it's pretty much plug and play with that squad.

So why didn't Belichick trade Brady and keep the younger Cassell, if all this amounts to is scheme?

[KDawg]

So why didn't Belichick trade Brady and keep the younger Cassell, if all this amounts to is scheme?

Because Brady is more talented.

But, that doesn't make the fact that Belichick is a football genius any less true. It's not QUITE plug and play, there. Brady is extremely talented.

[Hiro]

As is the case with most players, there's a very good chance that a QB can be a better player in a different situation. Likewise, he can be worse in a different situation. Football is so complex that there are a number of factors that can determine if a QB is going to succeed or not. There are variables that come into play for the player himself (accuracy, athleticism, ability to read defenses, ability to make a quick decision, a certain level of moxie), but there also are the outside factors that can impact how he plays (coaching, surrounding talent, outside pressure).

I believe for a guy like Drew Brees, he was a talented guy whose ability was taken to another level under an offensive guru like Sean Payton. Marty Schottenheimer was not exactly a QB guru himself, and evidently neither was Cam Cameron. Similar to Michael Vick, who never really had an offensive teacher like Andy Reid in Atlanta. Look at Kyle Orton in Denver, and how much he improved under a guy like Josh McDaniel.

I think for a guy like John Beck or Patrick Ramsey as you talk about Oldfan, I do agree both are similar cases to Steve Young, David Carr, and Tim Couch. Both were drafted to be franchise saviors because of their abilitiy, and found themselves on teams with below par talent and very poor coaching. As a result, this translated into no wins, regime changes, and both Beck and Ramsey found themselves ousted.

Could Ramsey have become a star as some people say? I don't think so, because besides his arm strength, he had poor pocket awareness and had a tendency to become very erratic. But we have no clue because he didn't receive the proper teaching other players have been lucky enough to have. I find the comparison between Beck and Ramsey intriguing though, and am eager to see how much he may have improved since his rookie year in 2007. That alone makes this season worth watching.

If you want prime examples of how important outer factors to a young QB, look no further than Atlanta and St. Louis.

[DC9]

So why didn't Belichick trade Brady and keep the younger Cassell, if all this amounts to is scheme?

Seriously?

Because he traded Cassell and got a franchise quarterback's trade for him....all the while keeping the face of the franchise.

I am not knocking Brady, man, I am just telling you, that Pats system is plug and play. Do you ever notice how wide open a lot of those recievers are?

HAIL!

[KCClybun]

I agree with you whole heartidly on this issue oldfan.

Take Brady off the Pats, they go 11-5 (see Matt Cassell), take Manning off of the Colts, though we haven't seen it, I think it would be catostrophic (6 wins at the most). Belechik may be the best coach since Joe Gibbs, but it's pretty much plug and play with that squad.

That speaks more to the general insanity of the Colts putting all their eggs in the Manning basket and keeping guys like Jim Sorgi and Curtis Painter around even though they know they can't win with those guys at quarterback than it does to Tom Brady being a "system guy", as seems to be the general point you and Oldfan have. Ideally what you want is a franchise quarterback and a guy who can take over the reigns competently until the franchise guy can get healthy again. The Colts said "screwed that, we're going with Manning every year!" with little regard to the fact that Petyon may actually get injured and then they'll be really screwed, if preseason and every time they rest their starters is any indication.

It's not like Cassel was some rookie who came off the bench and played well. He was on the team for three years, was properly developed, and was deeply ingrained in the offense. He's a talented guy. The Pats covered their bases by ensuring that a guy would be ready in the event Brady ever went down.

[DieselPwr44]

Because Brady is more talented.

But, that doesn't make the fact that Belichick is a football genius any less true. It's not QUITE plug and play, there. Brady is extremely talented.

Not according to some here.

I mean Bulger and Brady are on the same level talent wise.

[darrelgreenie]

How about Josh Johnson? Lots of speculation that when he becomes a FA next year, he'll rejoin Harbough in SF to compete with Kaepernick/back him up. Could be an interesting option.

I was a huge fan of Josh Johnson.

I would be geeked if we brought him in, he was drafted by Allen.

Coming out of college he was a polished rhythm drop back WCO QB.

Not the biggest arm or the biggest frame but he was ultra efficient passer with solid mechanics, quick release, quick feet and good pocket presence.

He also had above average escapability and playmaking.

[Mania]

Yup, that's true. Ramsey also had a really bad preseason if memory serves and so his leash was short.

Not only did Ramsey have a bad offseason, but Brunell had a very good one.

[Oldfan]

All quarterback performances are enhanced or hindered by scheme. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have both benefited from playing in extremely smart schemes. They are both Grade A pocket passers, but neither is as much superior to other QBs as most fans believe. Their supporting casts and schemes enhance their performances.

I read these percentages, but not from a reliable source... Peyton threw 74.5% of this passes from the shotgun last season. Brady 62%...

This is what Football Outsiders had to say about just this one element of “scheme.”

Shotgun formations are generally more efficient than formations with the quarterback under center.

Over the past three seasons, offenses have averaged 5.9 yards per play from Shotgun, but just 5.1 yards per play with the quarterback under center. This wide split exists even if you analyze the data to try to weed out biases like teams using Shotgun more often on third-and-long, or against prevent defenses in the fourth quarter. Shotgun offense is more efficient if you only look at the first half, on every down, and even if you only look at running back carries rather than passes and scrambles.

.

Clearly, NFL teams have figured the importance of the Shotgun out for themselves. Over the past four seasons, the average team has gone from using Shotgun 19 percent of the time to 36 percent of the time, not even counting the Wildcat and other college-style option plays that have become popular in recent years. Before 2007, no team had ever used Shotgun on more than half its offensive plays. In the past two seasons, five different teams have used Shotgun over half the time. It is likely that if teams continue to increase their usage of the Shotgun, defenses will adapt and the benefit of the formation will become less pronounced.

The Patriots are the team referred to which in 2007 was the first in NFL history to use the gun on more than half its offensive plays