LA Times: Patriot Act extension runs into conservative opposition

[SnyderShrugged]

Is there possibly a light at the end of this awful tunnel? Dare I even hope that some of the neo-con lemmings are opening their eyes and minds to reality???

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-patriot-act-20110208,0,6963018.story

Reporting from Washington —

A House GOP push to permanently extend expiring provisions of the Patriot Act is running into opposition from conservative and "tea party"-inspired lawmakers wary of the law's reach into private affairs.

Enacted after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the law makes it easier for federal authorities to conduct surveillance on terrorism suspects. Civil libertarians have long fought the measure, often drawing support from Democratic allies in Congress.

But as the Republican-led House prepares to vote Tuesday for a short-term extension of provisions expiring at the end of this month, some rank-and-file Republicans are signaling they will resist efforts later this year to make the law permanent.

more at link

---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 05:22 PM ----------

Ron Paul's words on the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJqZ5WqeCg&feature=player_embedded

[luckydevil]

Who didn't see this coming with a democrat in office? Hacks all of them

[SnyderShrugged]

Who didn't see this coming with a democrat in office? Hacks all of them

oh man this blanket is wet! LOL

Darned good point though

[twa]

Who didn't see this coming with a democrat in office? Hacks all of them

not sure of your point since they plan on extending it while O is in office....making it permanent is indeed a different matter,one even I would be leery of.

[mjah]

Making it permanent would be a terrible disappointment. Actually it would be far worse than that, but there are foul-language rules around here.

If tea party resistance has a hand in finally killing the "Patriot" Act, then I'll concede that the tea party is worth something after all.

[Larry]

Satan's Attorney, here,

Having trouble figuring out the "it shouldn't be made permanent" folks. Could one of you explain to me how this law can be good, today, but bad, next year?

[SnyderShrugged]

Satan's Attorney, here,

Having trouble figuring out the "it shouldn't be made permanent" folks. Could one of you explain to me how this law can be good, today, but bad, next year?

:munchout:

[Redskins Diehard]

Who didn't see this coming with a democrat in office? Hacks all of them

1) I don't believe this is the first time the issue has come up with a democrat in office

2) Do we know that these are Representatives that have supported the measure in the past but are now not supporting it because of Obama?

3) Maybe the Republicans aren't as "lock step" as is typically thrown at them when they all agree

[ACW]

Satan's Attorney, here,

Having trouble figuring out the "it shouldn't be made permanent" folks. Could one of you explain to me how this law can be good, today, but bad, next year?

It's NOT good today.

[twa]

Satan's Attorney, here,

Having trouble figuring out the "it shouldn't be made permanent" folks. Could one of you explain to me how this law can be good, today, but bad, next year?

Because of immediate need...the same justification Lincoln used to bend the law.

If the need is apparent next yr then they can extend it(as they have been doing)...getting rid of it w/o limits is much more difficult obviously.

[Larry]

Because of immediate need...the same justification Lincoln used to bend the law.

If the need is apparent next yr then they can extend it(as they have been doing)...getting rid of it w/o limits is much more difficult obviously.

So you're afraid of what happens after we get rid of terrorism?

[SkinsHokieFan]

Per Washington Post

BREAKING NEWS

House rejects extension of key provisions of Patriot Act

[twa]

I'm afraid of another govt program looking for ways to justify itself....a shift in focus and the controls in place is certainly easier to do when your existence is not being debated regularly.

[Burgold]

The Republicans are right. They're right for the wrong reasons, but they're right.

[Hubbs]

It's NOT good today.

Bingo.

Per Washington Post

BREAKING NEWS

House rejects extension of key provisions of Patriot Act

Good.

[SnyderShrugged]

Per Washington Post

BREAKING NEWS

House rejects extension of key provisions of Patriot Act

really? I better get googlin

---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 07:31 PM ----------

I'll be darned

Thanks to your dedicated efforts, the motion to suspend the rules and pass the extension of three PATRIOT Act provisions failed tonight in the House of Representatives! Since they were attempting to pass it on the suspension calendar, the vote required two thirds (290 members) of the House to agree to it.

The vote came down to the wire, and you could hear the arms breaking on Capitol Hill out here in Springfield, VA.

By a vote of 277-148, the House failed to pass the extension - click here for the roll call vote to see how your representative voted!

Thanks again for all you've done, but remember, we can't let up pressure now. This won't be the last we've heard of the PATRIOT Act renewal in the House.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=40663

---------- Post added February-8th-2011 at 07:50 PM ----------

not surprised to learn that most so called "tea party" noobs voted to extended it. So much for that whole freedom thingy they ran on.

[mjah]

Satan's Attorney, here,

Having trouble figuring out the "it shouldn't be made permanent" folks. Could one of you explain to me how this law can be good, today, but bad, next year?

To echo others, it isn't good today.

And it wasn't good yesterday, either.

A measure to give the "Patriot" Act another temporary extension will be coming up soon, and IMO it's certain to pass in the House. They already have the votes for it, as it will only require (I believe) 50% + 1. Today's vote required a 2/3 majority and failed only by a small margin.

[SnyderShrugged]

To echo others, it isn't good today.

And it wasn't good yesterday, either.

A measure to give the "Patriot" Act another temporary extension will be coming up soon, and IMO it's certain to pass in the House. They already have the votes for it, as it will only require (I believe) 50% + 1. Today's vote required a 2/3 majority and failed only by a small margin.

yep, another vote by the end of the month in fact. little hope for it to fail a second attempt when only a majority is needed this time. Tea-o-cons blew it

[SnyderShrugged]

LOL< I figured it was too good to be true. They are already trying to sneak another vote in that doesnt need a supermajority.

chedule for the House tomorrow:

Thursday, February 10th

On Thursday, the House will meet at 10:00 a.m. for morning hour and 12:00 p.m. for legislative business. Last votes expected: 1:30 - 2:30 p.m.

One Minute Speeches (15 per side)

H.Res. 79 – A resolution providing for consideration of H.R. 514, To extend expiring provisions of the USA PATRIOT Improvement and Reauthorization Act of 2005 and Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 relating to access to business records, individual terrorists as agents of foreign powers, and roving wiretaps until December 8, 2011 (Special Rule, One Hour of Debate) (Sponsored by Rep. David Dreier / Rules Committee)

http://majorityleader.house.gov/floor/2-10-11.pdf

Call your congress critters if you dont want this to pass. Enough of the nonsense folks! Right/Left/Middle/ all should be against the continuation of this beast.

[Mad Mike]

Meanwhile back in the sane world....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/09/terror.threat/index.html

The terrorist threat to the U.S. homeland has continued to "evolve" and may now "be at its most heightened state" since the September 11, 2001, terror attacks, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told members of Congress on Wednesday.

God knows we wouldn't want to be able to do this...

http://sbmblog.typepad.com/sbm-blog/2011/02/two-different-views-on-the-patriot-act.html

The “roving wiretap” provision that allows the FBI to obtain wiretaps from the FISA court, without identifying the target or what method of communication is to be tapped.

The “lone wolf” provision that allows FISA court warrants for the electronic monitoring of a person without a showing that the suspect is an agent of a foreign power or a terrorist.

The “business records” provision allows FISA court warrants for any type of record, (e.g., financial, medical, or library) without a government declaration that the information sought is connected to a terrorism or espionage investigation.*

* this is actually not true

Actual text:

http://theoceancountylibrary.org/USPatriotActSection215.htm

`SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.

`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

Note that all of these methods require warrants. The lone wolf provision makes sense because a lone wolf by definition has no direct ties to an organization. They still need to explain why the target is considered a threat. In a world where a terrorist can pick up a new phone # every 15 minutes by walking into a 7-11, this one should be a no-brainer.

These provisions should of course be reviewed and refined to prevent abuse. Which is what some people are trying to do:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s112-290

But by all means continue bleating and following the panicked mob. Keep telling yourself there is no real terrorist threat. The big bad government is out to get you. Or whatever it is that justifies your knee jerk reaction to a legislation intended to protect the most important, fundamental right of all for American citizens. The right to life.

[SnyderShrugged]

Yawn, does anyone else hear that little annoying mosquito too?

btw, isnt it such a strange coincidence that the announcements of a so-called "heightened alert" coincide so nicely with a bill that was failed, then up for a sudden revote?

ahh, its just coincidence and nothing to concern our pretty sheep shaped heads about.

[Mad Mike]

Yawn, does anyone else hear that little annoying mosquito too?

btw, isnt it such a strange coincidence that the announcements of a so-called "heightened alert" coincide so nicely with a bill that was failed, then up for a sudden revote?

ahh, its just coincidence and nothing to concern our pretty sheep shaped heads about.

Yeah, it's all just a scare tactic for the big bad US government to get you.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/17/AR2007101702114.html

Rolf Mowatt-Larssen is paid to think about the unthinkable. As the Energy Department's director of intelligence, he's responsible for gathering information about the threat that a terrorist group will attack America with a nuclear weapon.

With his shock of white hair and piercing eyes, Mowatt-Larssen looks like a man who has seen a ghost. And when you listen to a version of the briefing he has been giving recently to President Bush and other top officials, you begin to understand why. He is convinced that al-Qaeda is trying to acquire a nuclear bomb that will leave the ultimate terrorist signature -- a mushroom cloud.

We've all had enough fear-mongering to last a lifetime. Indeed, we have become so frightened of terrorism since Sept. 11, 2001, that we have begun doing the terrorists' job for them by undermining the legal framework of our democracy. And truly, I wish I could dismiss Mowatt-Larssen's analysis as the work of an overwrought former CIA officer with too many years in the trenches.

But it's worth listening to his warnings -- not because they induce more numbing paralysis but because they might stir sensible people to take actions that could detect and stop an attack. That's why his boss, Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman, is encouraging him to speak out. Mowatt-Larssen doesn't want to anguish later that he didn't sound the alarm in time.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/04/11/us-nuclear-summit-obama-idUSTRE63A1YJ20100411

President Barack Obama said on Sunday that efforts by al Qaeda to acquire atomic weapons posed the biggest security threat, and world leaders meeting this week must act with urgency to combat this danger.

Yeah - no worries. It's all just a ploy by the big bad government to take away your rights.

And lets ignore the fact that the provisions in question require high level requests of the FISA Court for warrants that require proof that the warrants are needed for terrorism investigations. Just keep repeating... "the government is out to get me"... "the government is out to get me"... "the government is out to get me"... Better run now. I see a black van pulling up in front of your house. Don't forget to carry all of the tin foil you can.

[SnyderShrugged]

Gosh you would think it would be a common discussion to discuss the failures of 10 years of a patriot act since obviously the terrorism problem is at its worst ever,:rolleyes:

---------- Post added February-10th-2011 at 02:06 PM ----------

Plus, who would be concerned at all that our government can ignore the entire 4th amendment, and without you knowing it, to obtain records about you from your accountant, bank, boat dealer, bodega, book store, car dealer, casino, computer server, credit union, dentist, HMO, hospital, hotel manager, insurance company, jewelry store, lawyer, library, pawn broker, pharmacist, physician, postman, real estate agent, supermarket, tax collectors, telephone company, travel agency, and trust company, and use the evidence thus obtained in any criminal prosecution against you.

Not to worry! All Is fine, trust them! Nothing could go wrong with this plan at all!

[Hubbs]

Amazingly, it's taken MM all of two posts to come to the same conclusion that he came to in a thread about a completely unrelated subject - if his viewpoint is dismissed, terrorists will nuke America.

I know, I know, Mike's going to respond by saying that he didn't say that will happen. And that's true. I suppose I should be more clear - it's not that he says it'll happen. He never says it'll happen. He just seems to show up any time someone talks about restricting, well, anything at all that's only related to fighting terrorists in the same way that Tommy Boy is related to Kevin Bacon. And when he does, he says, "Al Qaeda wants to nuke America!" And that seems to be the extent of his argument.

The point isn't that we shouldn't fight terrorism. The point is that when your primary tactic is to rush in and say, "Al Qaeda wants to nuke your city!", well, that kind of argument would always tend to favor one side. It ruins the legitimate debate about defining how we should fight terrorism, where privacy is privacy, and what kind of society we truly want. And ironically enough, it's an argument which claims that a set of laws that has allowed Al Qaeda to come so close to developing such terrible abilities is simultaneously the set of laws that would prevent Al Qaeda from actually developing such terrible abilities.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled political sniping about the Patriot Act.

[Mad Mike]

Gosh you would think it would be a common discussion to discuss the failures of 10 years of a patriot act since obviously the terrorism problem is at its worst ever,:rolleyes:

---------- Post added February-10th-2011 at 02:06 PM ----------

Plus, who would be concerned at all that our government can ignore the entire 4th amendment, and without you knowing it, to obtain records about you from your accountant, bank, boat dealer, bodega, book store, car dealer, casino, computer server, credit union, dentist, HMO, hospital, hotel manager, insurance company, jewelry store, lawyer, library, pawn broker, pharmacist, physician, postman, real estate agent, supermarket, tax collectors, telephone company, travel agency, and trust company, and use the evidence thus obtained in any criminal prosecution against you.

Not to worry! All Is fine, trust them! Nothing could go wrong with this plan at all!

Perhaps instead of bleating, you can explain to me how Obtaining a warrant from a court violates the 4th amendment?

Here, let me help.

http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.