NFP: Potential cracks in relationship between Snyder and Shanahan / Allen

[refhaf4L]

I know that you didnt direct this at me but it seems like fun and ill say what I would do if I were GM or coach. Im basing this as if we fired Shanny (which im not saying i would do)

Ok (clears throat while fixing his tie) I would hire Russ Grimm or Rob Ryan as head coach. I would prefer to Have Russ as head coach and Rob(or maybe Mike Singletary) as defensive cordinator. I would KEEP Donovan and haynesworth. I would tailor my system to the talent that we currently have on the team and i would put the players in the best position for them to succeed instead of forcing them into a system that they dont fit. In the draft I would go best player available (much like Ozzie Smith does with the Ravens), and I would try to trade Cooley and Andre Carter for a few extra picks. In free agency I would try to fill some holes because there are a ton of good players available this year. This is the perfect year to grab some good talent in free agency, young talent so they will be in redskins uniforms during their prime years instead of after their prime years. I would get rid of most of the older players on the team and let the young hungry unproven players loose. After the draft and free agency hopefully most of the holes are filled and I would look to undrafted free agents to get some good depth on the team and practice squad.

That would be my first offseason and the foundation would of been laid with young hungry talent sprinkled in with some veteran talent and leaders to show the young guys what it is to be a proffessional in this league. Then hopefully year 2 I can fill the rest of the holes on the team and start my yearly traddition of collecting talent in the draft and free agency so eventually my depth would be filled with young ballers ready to step in at a moments notice forcing me to make tough decisions on who the starter should be because my depth is almost as good as the starters. That way I can trade some starters after their prime for more draft picks. I dont give a damn about who the fan favorite is...im running this like the Steelers and Patriots.

Oh yea and im cutting Rex Grossman ASAP.

So basically, stick with what we've always done--bring in players and mold our team philosophy around who we have. Ozzie Newsome drafts the best player available, but you can bet the farm that he does it knowing that they run a certain type of defense or offense. you don't a fantastic option QB/athlete if you don't run that system. Same thing with the Steelers and the Patriots. And when you make a change, like going from a 4-3 to a 3-4, there is no right time to do it. Now is as good as any--especially since we ain't gonna win the super bowl with this roster anyway.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

First of all, you are grossly exaggerating the free agent blunders of Shanny this past offseason. For the most part, Mcnabb was a big mistake and the coach has essentially admitted as much. So he's taken accountability for that mistake, and he has immediately began to try to go another direction...like it or not, that is what leaders do. Secondly, there is no comparison right now to the Cerrato Era because VC has many, many examples of failure to point out, and the current regime is simply dealing with them in the best way they know how.

There also has never been any talk of "not wanting" free agents as you claim. Free agents are a part of the current NFL team structure--to not want them or use them would be the kiss od death for a franchise because they can add immediate leadership and NFL talent to a roster. The issue with free agents as far as the REdskins are concearned is that in the past, we have overpaid undeserving players at the expense of building a complete roster, or using money more wisely to stockpile players in various positions to add depth. Being smart with their money and collecting as many young players through the draft is the route that they are commited to. And all of you Shanny haters out there--did you really think he was going to be able to take a plate of cow dung and turn it into a gourmet meal in one year?

First of all ofcourse Shanny hasnt equaled the mistakes that Vinny made. He has been here only 1 year while Vinny was here for 9 or 10. Thats common sense. My point is that in year one he has made similar mistakes that Vinny did. Not the amount of mistakes. Would you argue that?

And the free agents I was talking about were Larry Johnson, Willie Parker, Joey Galloway, Roydell Williams all players who should of never been signed in the first place. I never liked Randle El but cutting him and Thomas just to keep Galloway and Williams doesnt make sense to me. No matter which way you try to spin it. You cant convince me that Thomas couldnt off been the 4th or 5th reciever on this team...even if he couldnt get on the field he was still a good productive Kick Returner he was 5th in the league when we cut him. I would rather have Banks return Punts and a bigger stronger Thomas on kicks. In my opinion he made a mistake at the reciever posistion which hurt the team this year. Moss, Armstrong, Randle El, Kelly, Thomas, Banks is alot better than Moss, Galloway, Armstrong, Williams. If you dont agree with that then I dont know what to tell you.

At RB he cut Torrain for Johnson. He got lucky that no other team claimed Torrain because that allowed him to resign him. But he doesnt get credit for Luck. If another team signs Torrain then where would of that left the running game?

The thing that makes the McNabb trade bad is the fact that he only kept him for a season. He knew the player he was getting...if he would of tailored the offense a little to fit what McNabb can do well and kept him for atleast 3 years while a young qb sits and learns the game then that trade wouldnt of been horrible. How is trading 2 picks to get McNabb for one year any different than trading 2 picks to get Jason Taylor for 1 year?

And there have been plenty of people that say "just say no to free agents" or "everytime a free agent is availabe you fans always start a lets sign him thread...just build thru the draft". People act like free agents are a bad thing around here just because some of them didnt work out. In reality more of them worked out than were busts. So I agree with you on everything else you say about free agents. But my point is that people say "say no to big name free agents" and bash Vinny/Gibbs for signing big name guys but dont call out Shannahan for doing the same thing. And he's going to get more big names this offseason.

And im not a "Shanny Hater" im an "arrogant coach who doesnt adjust his system to his players, who cant communicate with players, who makes decisions with his ego, who gets in pissing matches with players" hater. I was on board with hiring Shanny as COACH but not GM. I said it from day one that he has too much ego and he isnt a good GM. And he hasnt proven me wrong so far.

And no I didnt think we would win it all this year but I was hopig that he would have the team getting better and moving in a good direction as the season went on. I didnt expect him to cut talent off of the team and i didnt expect him to get into a pissing match with 2 of our best players in McNabb and Haynesworth.

So once again I ask you...are you saying that he hasnt made similar mistakes that Vinny/Gibbs made?

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 03:20 PM ----------

So basically, stick with what we've always done--bring in players and mold our team philosophy around who we have. Ozzie Newsome drafts the best player available, but you can bet the farm that he does it knowing that they run a certain type of defense or offense. you don't a fantastic option QB/athlete if you don't run that system. Same thing with the Steelers and the Patriots. And when you make a change, like going from a 4-3 to a 3-4, there is no right time to do it. Now is as good as any--especially since we ain't gonna win the super bowl with this roster anyway.

How does building thru the draft and playing young players sound like ANYTHING we have been doing? Did I say anythign about going back to a 4-3? If you know football then you would know that Mike Singletary and Rob Ryan run the 3-4 defense.

An any great coach will tell you that the job of a coach is to adjust to the talent he has. To put players in a position to succeed, to build the system around what you have and most of all be a teacher. If it were up to me I would of ran the 4-3 for atleast this year until we got more pieces that fit the 3-4.

The NFL is a RESULTS driven business. And right now his results stink. He can want to run "his system" all he wants but I gurantee you that if doesnt get results in the next 2 years then him and his "system" will be out of here.

We didnt have to be 6-10 this year, ofcourse he wants you to think that so the pressure is off of him and he can just say "hey i had a bad team what did you expect", but the truth is this year we underachieved and last year we underachieved again this year. Both years we underachieved due to coaching. If he would of made better coaching/system and personnel decisions then we would of had a better record this year.

[refhaf4L]

First of all ofcourse Shanny hasnt equaled the mistakes that Vinny made. He has been here only 1 year while Vinny was here for 9 or 10. Thats common sense. My point is that in year one he has made similar mistakes that Vinny did. Not the amount of mistakes. Would you argue that?

And the free agents I was talking about were Larry Johnson, Willie Parker, Joey Galloway, Roydell Williams all players who should of never been signed in the first place. I never liked Randle El but cutting him and Thomas just to keep Galloway and Williams doesnt make sense to me. No matter which way you try to spin it. You cant convince me that Thomas couldnt off been the 4th or 5th reciever on this team...even if he couldnt get on the field he was still a good productive Kick Returner he was 5th in the league when we cut him. I would rather have Banks return Punts and a bigger stronger Thomas on kicks. In my opinion he made a mistake at the reciever posistion which hurt the team this year. Moss, Armstrong, Randle El, Kelly, Thomas, Banks is alot better than Moss, Galloway, Armstrong, Williams. If you dont agree with that then I dont know what to tell you.

At RB he cut Torrain for Johnson. He got lucky that no other team claimed Torrain because that allowed him to resign him. But he doesnt get credit for Luck. If another team signs Torrain then where would of that left the running game?

The thing that makes the McNabb trade bad is the fact that he only kept him for a season. He knew the player he was getting...if he would of tailored the offense a little to fit what McNabb can do well and kept him for atleast 3 years while a young qb sits and learns the game then that trade wouldnt of been horrible. How is trading 2 picks to get McNabb for one year any different than trading 2 picks to get Jason Taylor for 1 year?

And there have been plenty of people that say "just say no to free agents" or "everytime a free agent is availabe you fans always start a lets sign him thread...just build thru the draft". People act like free agents are a bad thing around here just because some of them didnt work out. In reality more of them worked out than were busts. So I agree with you on everything else you say about free agents. But my point is that people say "say no to big name free agents" and bash Vinny/Gibbs for signing big name guys but dont call out Shannahan for doing the same thing. And he's going to get more big names this offseason.

And im not a "Shanny Hater" im an "arrogant coach who doesnt adjust his system to his players, who cant communicate with players, who makes decisions with his ego, who gets in pissing matches with players" hater. I was on board with hiring Shanny as COACH but not GM. I said it from day one that he has too much ego and he isnt a good GM. And he hasnt proven me wrong so far.

And no I didnt think we would win it all this year but I was hopig that he would have the team getting better and moving in a good direction as the season went on. I didnt expect him to cut talent off of the team and i didnt expect him to get into a pissing match with 2 of our best players in McNabb and Haynesworth.

So once again I ask you...are you saying that he hasnt made similar mistakes that Vinny/Gibbs made?

Well, Shanny has no doubt made some mistakes. But honestly, bringing in Willie Parker and LJ for peanuts as opposed to millions was actually the first sign that we had actual professionals running the show as opposed to glorified marketing machines disguised as NFL executives. Galloway was an awful decision in retrospect, be the guy runs meticulous routes and he practices his arse of with a monsterous work ethic. I think the organization was pretty surprised that his hands ended up sucking. Ususally with players of that age it's speed and agility, but as we saw he was open often and dropped balls--hence he got canned. No sympathy from me here on ARE--he was a debacle. a catch or two every other game and a negative punt return average. I had seen enough. Thomas, a ****y young receiver with no work ethic and no production. You can be an a-hole if you produce. But if your not producing and your an a-hole--pink slip. I got no problem with that either. He may or may not have helped us a little, but I saw guys like Chris Cooley and Santana Moss dropping balls this season that would have resulted in touchdowns--Thomas being on the roster doesn't change that one bit...Shanny drafted Torrain for a reason so I'm not about to call him lucky. RTe was on our practice squad and stepped up when CP went down and LJ got released. Great story.

[zCommander]

Snyder to Allen and Shanny: Well this was such a disappointed season. I am not happy how things turned out.

Media: Potential cracks in relationship between Snyder and Shanahan / Allen

FACT: Snyder has already told the public about not being happy about this season. So not sure how this is just an inside info?

[lawboy_2000]

Didn't we actually improve our record under year one of Shanny? And some on this board are calling for his head!!

Who cares if Danny is upset and ashamed...He has done it to us as fans for years!!

Let the grown-ups run things over at Redskins Park, and have some patience!!

[charles mannley]

He knew the player he was getting...if he would of tailored the offense a little to fit what McNabb can do well and kept him for atleast 3 years while a young qb sits and learns the game then that trade wouldnt of been horrible.

So what does McNabb do well?

[refhaf4L]

First of all ofcourse Shanny hasnt equaled the mistakes that Vinny made. He has been here only 1 year while Vinny was here for 9 or 10. Thats common sense. My point is that in year one he has made similar mistakes that Vinny did. Not the amount of mistakes. Would you argue that?

And the free agents I was talking about were Larry Johnson, Willie Parker, Joey Galloway, Roydell Williams all players who should of never been signed in the first place. I never liked Randle El but cutting him and Thomas just to keep Galloway and Williams doesnt make sense to me. No matter which way you try to spin it. You cant convince me that Thomas couldnt off been the 4th or 5th reciever on this team...even if he couldnt get on the field he was still a good productive Kick Returner he was 5th in the league when we cut him. I would rather have Banks return Punts and a bigger stronger Thomas on kicks. In my opinion he made a mistake at the reciever posistion which hurt the team this year. Moss, Armstrong, Randle El, Kelly, Thomas, Banks is alot better than Moss, Galloway, Armstrong, Williams. If you dont agree with that then I dont know what to tell you.

At RB he cut Torrain for Johnson. He got lucky that no other team claimed Torrain because that allowed him to resign him. But he doesnt get credit for Luck. If another team signs Torrain then where would of that left the running game?

The thing that makes the McNabb trade bad is the fact that he only kept him for a season. He knew the player he was getting...if he would of tailored the offense a little to fit what McNabb can do well and kept him for atleast 3 years while a young qb sits and learns the game then that trade wouldnt of been horrible. How is trading 2 picks to get McNabb for one year any different than trading 2 picks to get Jason Taylor for 1 year?

And there have been plenty of people that say "just say no to free agents" or "everytime a free agent is availabe you fans always start a lets sign him thread...just build thru the draft". People act like free agents are a bad thing around here just because some of them didnt work out. In reality more of them worked out than were busts. So I agree with you on everything else you say about free agents. But my point is that people say "say no to big name free agents" and bash Vinny/Gibbs for signing big name guys but dont call out Shannahan for doing the same thing. And he's going to get more big names this offseason.

And im not a "Shanny Hater" im an "arrogant coach who doesnt adjust his system to his players, who cant communicate with players, who makes decisions with his ego, who gets in pissing matches with players" hater. I was on board with hiring Shanny as COACH but not GM. I said it from day one that he has too much ego and he isnt a good GM. And he hasnt proven me wrong so far.

And no I didnt think we would win it all this year but I was hopig that he would have the team getting better and moving in a good direction as the season went on. I didnt expect him to cut talent off of the team and i didnt expect him to get into a pissing match with 2 of our best players in McNabb and Haynesworth.

So once again I ask you...are you saying that he hasnt made similar mistakes that Vinny/Gibbs made?

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 03:20 PM ----------

How does building thru the draft and playing young players sound like ANYTHING we have been doing? Did I say anythign about going back to a 4-3? If you know football then you would know that Mike Singletary and Rob Ryan run the 3-4 defense.

An any great coach will tell you that the job of a coach is to adjust to the talent he has. To put players in a position to succeed, to build the system around what you have and most of all be a teacher. If it were up to me I would of ran the 4-3 for atleast this year until we got more pieces that fit the 3-4.

The NFL is a RESULTS driven business. And right now his results stink. He can want to run "his system" all he wants but I gurantee you that if doesnt get results in the next 2 years then him and his "system" will be out of here.

We didnt have to be 6-10 this year, ofcourse he wants you to think that so the pressure is off of him and he can just say "hey i had a bad team what did you expect", but the truth is this year we underachieved and last year we underachieved again this year. Both years we underachieved due to coaching. If he would of made better coaching/system and personnel decisions then we would of had a better record this year.

We underacheived because we have a lot of players on our team that are accustomed to loosing--flat out. Loosers. Fire in their belly's? Sure. Winners? No. Gibbs in his second stint didn't do this organization any favors by kissing snyders behind and being wishy washy in the direction he wanted to take this team. If he had and done things the right way, we wouldn't be in this position. This is how you change things, you pull your sack out and you make tough decision without caring how it's going to look or be perceived by ownership, who frankly aren't qualified to make football decisions. At some point you have to point your fingers at personnel as to why we've been loosing for 9 out of the last 11 years. How can we say it's coaching? we've had all kinds of em. This regime is making a clear effort to building a long term winner, not a maybe this year or maybe next year winner. You think if we would have run a 4-3 this year it would have made a difference??? Why run it when you know your going to change. I'm not sure why there is so much distrust in a guy like Shanahan. He's a proven winner and he's got the drive and detrmination, and respect from players to turn this thing around. Not only that but, contrary to what most people think, he got a pretty damn good draft record. Brandon Marshall, eddie Royal, Torrain, Terrel Davis, countless RB's. I don't get it. He is the opposite of what we've been doing...That's a good thing.

[hitmandm]

I was not a fan of the Shanny hiring. I got lambasted last year, and I still dont think he is a good fit. But the truth is, he is wayyyyy better than anyone that will come here (Cowher and others will not) so I am content he does have the ability to take us far, although he is pretty falliable. We can give Shanny a benefit of the doubt because he has won it all.

DMAC was never going to be a success because he has never won it all. For all we know Philly might have 2-4 SBs if dumb fatty dirt thrower wasnt their QB for so long. He is lazy, slow, dumb and inaccurate- and his one strength, classiness, doesnt win football games. The Philly fans knew it, Reid knew it, the other teams that passed on a trade last year knew it, Limbaugh knew it and now, after ignoring all the evidence and two high picks later, we know it.

[tdigle]

I'm so used to failure and mediocrity by now that I have no hopes for this team when opening day rolls around. On the plus side, this has rid me of any expectations (and thus any impatience). I say let Shanahan do his thing. I'd rather see him fail spectacularly in his attempt to turn this team around than have Snyder fire him over results that don't come quick enough.

[ThomasRoane]

So what does McNabb do well?

He took care of the mole problem at Fed Ex!

[ChillSkinzFan84]

Well, Shanny has no doubt made some mistakes. But honestly, bringing in Willie Parker and LJ for peanuts as opposed to millions was actually the first sign that we had actual professionals running the show as opposed to glorified marketing machines disguised as NFL executives. Galloway was an awful decision in retrospect, be the guy runs meticulous routes and he practices his arse of with a monsterous work ethic. I think the organization was pretty surprised that his hands ended up sucking. Ususally with players of that age it's speed and agility, but as we saw he was open often and dropped balls--hence he got canned. No sympathy from me here on ARE--he was a debacle. a catch or two every other game and a negative punt return average. I had seen enough. Thomas, a ****y young receiver with no work ethic and no production. You can be an a-hole if you produce. But if your not producing and your an a-hole--pink slip. I got no problem with that either. He may or may not have helped us a little, but I saw guys like Chris Cooley and Santana Moss dropping balls this season that would have resulted in touchdowns--Thomas being on the roster doesn't change that one bit...Shanny drafted Torrain for a reason so I'm not about to call him lucky. RTe was on our practice squad and stepped up when CP went down and LJ got released. Great story.

In my opinion your looking at it all thru rose colered glasses. He doesnt get credit for signing Johnson and Parker to low money deals. Nobody in the league including Vinny would of paid them big money. The only reason they were signed was because of their big names. Thats why Johnson made the team over Torrain. The fact that he drafted Torrain brought him here and cut him to keep Johnson speaks to my point of him making a mistake. Whether you want to admit it or not he did get lucky that no other team signed Torrain. You really cant dispute that and saying that he drafted him certainly doesnt dispute it.

Like I said i didnt like Randle el either but if you dont think he could of been more productive than williams or galloway then your definately looking thru rose colored glasses. The same goes for Thomas. If you dont think that a 6'1 215 pound reciever would of helped more than Galloway and Williams who produced NOTHING. When did Shanny ever give Thomas a chance to prove himself? In the preseason he got a td on the same play that Armstrong caught that ball on and that was one of his few chances to prove something. Thomas best game was better than Armstongs best game. And Armstrong is essentially the same reciever that Randle El was. a couple of catches a game and nothing more. The only difference is that Armstrong was asked to run deeper routes...thats it.

Im not saying that Thomas is a good player but my problem is that shanny didnt give him a chance to see what he is. What would of it hurt to keep Thomas over Williams? Thomas is better on special teams so the only logical conclusion is that Shanny just didnt like him for whatever reason. You say no work ethic but the players at redskins park say different. You say no production but like I said when was he really given a chance? And not only me but Jerry Gray said the same thing at the end of last year.

Kelly Johnson asked Gray whats the difference between Thomas as Desean Jackson and he answer was opportunity. He said how can you produce and show what you can do if your not given an opportunity to it? He said you cant do it from the sidelins or on the inactive list. And thats COACH at redskins park everyday seeing what Thomas can do saying that...not just some random fan but a coach.If Thomas was good enough to be on the Colts and Giants team then I think he was good enough to be on our roster...especially when 2 of the OLD recievers(who you know had no future with the team) produced nothing. This was the perfect season to see if he could play or not being in a real system and having a legit QB. If he doesnt produce (in his third year when most recievers start to show promise) then cut him...it couldnt of hurt us. Seeing that the 2 old recievers he kept over Thomas produced nothing for this team I believe it was a roster mistake that Shanny made. And you cant say that the lack of playmakers at recievers didnt hurt us this year. Thats why we have to draft one now. TO BE CLEAR IM NOT SAYING CUTTING THOMAS WAS A MISTAKE BECAUSE HE'S A GREAT PLAYER BUT BECAUSE WE DIDNT TAKE THE OPPRTUNITY TO SEE WHAT HE COULD DO AND BECAUSE THE RECIEVERS HE KEPT WERE OLD AND SORRY WITH NO UPSIDE. Also i think putting Kelly on IR was a mistake because he was healthy and practicing the last half of the season and his size could of helped us.

And you saying that Torrain went in when CP got hurt is speaking to my point when I said what would of happened if Torrain got picked up by another team when Shanny cut him? It was a bad decision to cut him and he got lucky that he was not picked up off of waivers.

If you dont think that these were mistakes that Shanny made then in my opnion your looking thru rose colered glasses

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 04:10 PM ----------

So what does McNabb do well?

Be real with yourself. If McNabb does nothing well then why is he a boarderline hall of famer and why did the genius Shanahan give up 2 picks to get him? Answer that for me

[ThomasRoane]

Be real with yourself. If McNabb does nothing well then why is he a boarderline hall of famer and why did the genius Shanahan give up 2 picks to get him? Answer that for me

Philly is a pass first system and will never win a Super Bowl that way. The only QB that has a chance is Tom Brady and that style didn't work vs the Giants and may not work this year. The pro bowl is a joke and Redskins fans proved it to puke fans by stuffing the ballots a couple years ago. It's a popularity contest. The ultimate measurement for a QB's greatness is Super Bowls. That's it.

Donovon had the luxury of being in a pass happy offense with one of the greatest receiving RB's in the history of the game. He often got 5 times the credit in yardage for a 3 yard pass. He was able to ad lib when he was athletic until someone opened up. But he never made the transition to reading defenses and getting the ball out quickly. Shannahan believed he was that high character guy everyone else thought he was and would buy in to what they were trying to do. We were all fooled. Cause Donovon never bought in and if a QB that hasn't started a game in two years can be more productive and (without the benefit of having never played a regular season game in that system) can out produce him then I'd consider that case closed. Donovon expected Shanny to run Philly's system. A system by the way that has NEVER won a Super Bowl and probably never will.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

We underacheived because we have a lot of players on our team that are accustomed to loosing--flat out. Loosers. Fire in their belly's? Sure. Winners? No. Gibbs in his second stint didn't do this organization any favors by kissing snyders behind and being wishy washy in the direction he wanted to take this team. If he had and done things the right way, we wouldn't be in this position. This is how you change things, you pull your sack out and you make tough decision without caring how it's going to look or be perceived by ownership, who frankly aren't qualified to make football decisions. At some point you have to point your fingers at personnel as to why we've been loosing for 9 out of the last 11 years. How can we say it's coaching? we've had all kinds of em. This regime is making a clear effort to building a long term winner, not a maybe this year or maybe next year winner. You think if we would have run a 4-3 this year it would have made a difference??? Why run it when you know your going to change. I'm not sure why there is so much distrust in a guy like Shanahan. He's a proven winner and he's got the drive and detrmination, and respect from players to turn this thing around. Not only that but, contrary to what most people think, he got a pretty damn good draft record. Brandon Marshall, eddie Royal, Torrain, Terrel Davis, countless RB's. I don't get it. He is the opposite of what we've been doing...That's a good thing.

I agree that we have a bunch of losers on this team, I said that back in 05. But you only have to look to the 08 season to see how coaching affected the season. When Zorn was aggressive, unpredictable, and threw the ball deep we were 6-2. When he became Conservative, predictable, only throwing short passes and slamming Portis into a brick wall against 8-9 in the box we were 2-6. Thats why I said before the 09 season that the season would all come down to coaching...if Zorn is conservative like 2nd half of 08 season the we would lose. And thats what happened.

As for the 4-3 I do think it would of helped us if we let Haynesworth do his thing and be dissruptive and let Orakpo play DE. I think we would of had a better defense if we had done that. And Shannahan was fired because of his job as GM. You do know that right?

And a coach that doesnt care about his owner is a coach that gets fired. All coaches(even the great ones) pay respect to their owners...because the owner is the boss. Its that simple

[ThomasRoane]

I agree that we have a bunch of losers on this team, I said that back in 05. But you only have to look to the 08 season to see how coaching affected the season. When Zorn was aggressive, unpredictable, and threw the ball deep we were 6-2. When he became Conservative, predictable, only throwing short passes and slamming Portis into a brick wall against 8-9 in the box we were 2-6. Thats why I said before the 09 season that the season would all come down to coaching...if Zorn is conservative like 2nd half of 08 season the we would lose. And thats what happened.

As for the 4-3 I do think it would of helped us if we let Haynesworth do his thing and be dissruptive and let Orakpo play DE. I think we would of had a better defense if we had done that. And Shannahan was fired because of his job as GM. You do know that right?

And a coach that doesnt care about his owner is a coach that gets fired. All coaches(even the great ones) pay respect to their owners...because the owner is the boss. Its that simple

Three well respected coaches now (Jeff Fisher, Greg Blache and Haz) have yet to get Fat Ass to play up to his talent level for an entire season. What makes you think ANY coach could do better?

[ChillSkinzFan84]

Philly is a pass first system and will never win a Super Bowl that way. The only QB that has a chance is Tom Brady and that style didn't work vs the Giants and may not work this year. The pro bowl is a joke and Redskins fans proved it to puke fans by stuffing the ballots a couple years ago. It's a popularity contest. The ultimate measurement for a QB's greatness is Super Bowls. That's it.

Donovon had the luxury of being in a pass happy offense with one of the greatest receiving RB's in the history of the game. He often got 5 times the credit in yardage for a 3 yard pass. He was able to ad lib when he was athletic until someone opened up. But he never made the transition to reading defenses and getting the ball out quickly. Shannahan believed he was that high character guy everyone else thought he was and would buy in to what they were trying to do. We were all fooled. Cause Donovon never bought in and if a QB that hasn't started a game in two years can be more productive and (without the benefit of having never played a regular season game in that system) can out produce him then I'd consider that case closed. Donovon expected Shanny to run Philly's system. A system by the way that has NEVER won a Super Bowl and probably never will.

No matter how many ways you try to spin it Donovan is a good player. And the whole NFL knows that. If he was a bum then he wouldnt of been able to put up those stats and win the amount of games he did. Period. Philly never won a championship because they had the worst recieving corps in the league his whole time there. The one year they get a legit WR they go to the superbowl. You think thats a coinsedence?

Its funny that you say Grossman outplayed McNabb because Grossman got most of his stats and some touchdowns on the same play that you used to say McNabb shouldnt get credit...the screen pass. Which we ran more of to help beat the blitz once Rex started playing. And thats what McNabb asked for not the philly offense. Extremeskins favorite player Anthony Armstrong even said that was the case. Smells like a contridiction to me

[Skinzfever2010]

In my opinion your looking at it all thru rose colered glasses. He doesnt get credit for signing Johnson and Parker to low money deals. Nobody in the league including Vinny would of paid them big money. The only reason they were signed was because of their big names. Thats why Johnson made the team over Torrain. The fact that he drafted Torrain brought him here and cut him to keep Johnson speaks to my point of him making a mistake. Whether you want to admit it or not he did get lucky that no other team signed Torrain. You really cant dispute that and saying that he drafted him certainly doesnt dispute it.

Like I said i didnt like Randle el either but if you dont think he could of been more productive than williams or galloway then your definately looking thru rose colored glasses. The same goes for Thomas. If you dont think that a 6'1 215 pound reciever would of helped more than Galloway and Williams who produced NOTHING. When did Shanny ever give Thomas a chance to prove himself? In the preseason he got a td on the same play that Armstrong caught that ball on and that was one of his few chances to prove something. Thomas best game was better than Armstongs best game. And Armstrong is essentially the same reciever that Randle El was. a couple of catches a game and nothing more. The only difference is that Armstrong was asked to run deeper routes...thats it.

Im not saying that Thomas is a good player but my problem is that shanny didnt give him a chance to see what he is. What would of it hurt to keep Thomas over Williams? Thomas is better on special teams so the only logical conclusion is that Shanny just didnt like him for whatever reason. You say no work ethic but the players at redskins park say different. You say no production but like I said when was he really given a chance? And not only me but Jerry Gray said the same thing at the end of last year.

Kelly Johnson asked Gray whats the difference between Thomas as Desean Jackson and he answer was opportunity. He said how can you produce and show what you can do if your not given an opportunity to it? He said you cant do it from the sidelins or on the inactive list. And thats COACH at redskins park everyday seeing what Thomas can do saying that...not just some random fan but a coach.If Thomas was good enough to be on the Colts and Giants team then I think he was good enough to be on our roster...especially when 2 of the OLD recievers(who you know had no future with the team) produced nothing. This was the perfect season to see if he could play or not being in a real system and having a legit QB. If he doesnt produce (in his third year when most recievers start to show promise) then cut him...it couldnt of hurt us. Seeing that the 2 old recievers he kept over Thomas produced nothing for this team I believe it was a roster mistake that Shanny made. And you cant say that the lack of playmakers at recievers didnt hurt us this year. Thats why we have to draft one now. TO BE CLEAR IM NOT SAYING CUTTING THOMAS WAS A MISTAKE BECAUSE HE'S A GREAT PLAYER BUT BECAUSE WE DIDNT TAKE THE OPPRTUNITY TO SEE WHAT HE COULD DO AND BECAUSE THE RECIEVERS HE KEPT WERE OLD AND SORRY WITH NO UPSIDE. Also i think putting Kelly on IR was a mistake because he was healthy and practicing the last half of the season and his size could of helped us.

And you saying that Torrain went in when CP got hurt is speaking to my point when I said what would of happened if Torrain got picked up by another team when Shanny cut him? It was a bad decision to cut him and he got lucky that he was not picked up off of waivers.

If you dont think that these were mistakes that Shanny made then in my opnion your looking thru rose colered glasses

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 04:10 PM ----------

Be real with yourself. If McNabb does nothing well then why is he a boarderline hall of famer and why did the genius Shanahan give up 2 picks to get him? Answer that for me

I literally spent all year explaining and expressing this same view. You couldn't have said it better. ShanaAllen put themselves under the microscope with questionable/dumb move after questionable/dumb move.

1. win now was never necessary (Trading two picks, the McNabb Hope/change campaign)

2. The 3-4 in year one with no 3-4 players (outside of LaRon). lets be real here, had we drafted a 3-4 OLB or NT maybe we could have tried it in year one with hopes that everyone catches on by year 2 BUT our staff destroyed our only strength stemming back from Marvin Lewis & Greg Williams.

3. The "old ass" WR debacle. Antwan Randel would have been great filler for another year (should have restructured his deal and kept him). Better VET presence in the locker room/ better player than Galloway (Antwan has been to the promise land and won it, Galloway ****ing sucks). Devin Thomas should have stayed on as filler at WR and KR on teams. Roydell sucks. Still in shock we didn't pick up a WR that could have been more productive for a year.

4. He lucked out with Torain. Anyone that isn't sipping the CKool-Aid will admit that. (See Banks as well).

However, through all of his mistakes and contradictions in year one we are a better team than we were in 09. We regressed from 2007 & 2008 but we may be headed in the right direction. It was only year 1.

SideBar: For all his(Mike Shanahan) **** ups he made that 6th pick in 2007 draft worth everything. He drafted one hell of a Tackle in T.Williams, and found a stud on Teams. I don't know if you can build a team around a S, PR, & T, but its a start lol.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

Three well respected coaches now (Jeff Fisher, Greg Blache and Haz) have yet to get Fat Ass to play up to his talent level for an entire season. What makes you think ANY coach could do better?

Al was known as the best and most dominant defensive player in the league when under Fisher. So your wrong about that. Blache is an idiot who made Orakpo an outside linebacker and told Al and the rest of the dline to not get upfield and get pressure but to hold their position at the line of scrimmage...and even while doing that Al still put up Pro Bowl numbers (go head check them yourself compared to Kevin Williams and Jay Ratliff)...so again im not getting your logic here.

Thats why I always tell you people to stop taking everything the media says as gospel. Use your own eyes and own brain. If you watched then you would know that he played well in 09. Oh yea in 09 we also had the best short yardage and goal-line defense in the NFL...but I guess Al had nothing to do with that right? SMH

[Skinzfever2010]

Al was known as the best and most dominant defensive player in the league when under Fisher. So your wrong about that. Blache is an idiot who made Orakpo an outside linebacker and told Al and the rest of the dline to not get upfield and get pressure but to hold their position at the line of scrimmage...and even while doing that Al still put up Pro Bowl numbers (go head check them yourself compared to Kevin Williams and Jay Ratliff)...so again im not getting your logic here.

Thats why I always tell you people to stop taking everything the media says as gospel. Use your own eyes and own brain. If you watched then you would know that he played well in 09. Oh yea in 09 we also had the best short yardage and goal-line defense in the NFL...but I guess Al had nothing to do with that right? SMH

Blache also kept LaRon at FS and tried to call him his little Angel. Blache was indeed a dumb ass.

[Bang]

For you guys advocating two year shots for every coach,, get used to continuing to be a loser.

Unreasonable expectations lead to frustrated fans, and if they have their say, leads to more losing with the next guy.

It's called the coaching carousel, and on that particular merry go round there is NO brass ring. You just keep spinning.

It takes time, especially when a team is in the shape this one was in.

Here's some homework for you impatient guys.

Go take a look at the teams in the league with the most coaching turnover in the last ten years, and then look at their records.

Then look at the teams who give a philosophy a chance to work and their coaches stick for more than 2 seasons, and what their records have been.

Or don't. You already know what you're going to find anyway.

~Bang

[Skinzfever2010]

For you guys advocating two year shots for every coach,, get used to continuing to be a loser.

Unreasonable expectations lead to frustrated fans, and if they have their say, leads to more losing with the next guy.

It's called the coaching carousel, and on that particular merry go round there is NO brass ring. You just keep spinning.

It takes time, especially when a team is in the shape this one was in.

Here's some homework for you impatient guys.

Go take a look at the teams in the league with the most coaching turnover in the last ten years, and then look at their records.

Then look at the teams who give a philosophy a chance to work and their coaches stick for more than 2 seasons, and what their records have been.

Or don't. You already know what you're going to find anyway.

~Bang

The great voice of reason. You never fail. Exactly why I summed it all up to "it was just one year". Having detached from the season a bit and focusing more on the the bigger picture we are better than we were in 09 and headed in a different (good, bad, ugly yet to be determined) direction.

I seriously want to be at least 8-8 in year 2.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

I literally spent all year explaining and expressing this same view. You couldn't have said it better. ShanaAllen put themselves under the microscope with questionable/dumb move after questionable/dumb move.

1. win now was never necessary (Trading two picks, the McNabb Hope/change campaign)

2. The 3-4 in year one with no 3-4 players (outside of LaRon). lets be real here, had we drafted a 3-4 OLB or NT maybe we could have tried it in year one with hopes that everyone catches on by year 2 BUT our staff destroyed our only strength stemming back from Marvin Lewis & Greg Williams.

3. The "old ass" WR debacle. Antwan Randel would have been great filler for another year (should have restructured his deal and kept him). Better VET presence in the locker room/ better player than Galloway (Antwan has been to the promise land and won it, Galloway ****ing sucks). Devin Thomas should have stayed on as filler at WR and KR on teams. Roydell sucks. Still in shock we didn't pick up a WR that could have been more productive for a year.

4. He lucked out with Torain. Anyone that isn't sipping the CKool-Aid will admit that. (See Banks as well).

However, through all of his mistakes and contradictions in year one we are a better team than we were in 09. We regressed from 2007 & 2008 but we may be headed in the right direction. It was only year 1.

SideBar: For all his(Mike Shanahan) **** ups he made that 6th pick in 2007 draft worth everything. He drafted one hell of a Tackle in T.Williams, and found a stud on Teams. I don't know if you can build a team around a S, PR, & T, but its a start lol.

lol I feel you man we are in better shape. And we will be good to go if he learns from his mistakes...thats all im hoping for. But if the media and fans dont hold him accountable then he will never have to acknowledge the mistakes and wont feel a need to change. And the old wr debacle is just mind blowing to me. I was looking forward to seeing what we had in Thomas this year. But for Shanny to cut him for no reason and keep Galloway and Williams was just like I said mind blowing to me. And now people just jump all over Thomas and act like better recievers wouldnt of helped us this year. I just dont get it

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 04:54 PM ----------

Blache also kept LaRon at FS and tried to call him his little Angel. Blache was indeed a dumb ass.

Another good point that I forgot to think about. I was screaming for us to move LaRon to SS for years now. Kareem Moore really let me down this year though. He used to be a big hitter and now he just flops and misses. It seems like he was never the same after the knee injury in preseason. I hope he gets back to form though.

[TheLongshot]

For you guys advocating two year shots for every coach,, get used to continuing to be a loser.

Unreasonable expectations lead to frustrated fans, and if they have their say, leads to more losing with the next guy.

It's called the coaching carousel, and on that particular merry go round there is NO brass ring. You just keep spinning.

It takes time, especially when a team is in the shape this one was in.

Here's some homework for you impatient guys.

Go take a look at the teams in the league with the most coaching turnover in the last ten years, and then look at their records.

Then look at the teams who give a philosophy a chance to work and their coaches stick for more than 2 seasons, and what their records have been.

Or don't. You already know what you're going to find anyway.

~Bang

You'd think after a decade of having coaches last an average of 2 years that fans would learn that it is one of the big reasons why we haven't been very good.

While I wasn't a big fan of the Shanahan hire, or with some of his decisions, I know that this team needs to stick with some plan for longer than two years and whoever was hired for the job should be someone we stick with for the long-term.

[Skinzfever2010]

lol I feel you man we are in better shape. And we will be good to go if he learns from his mistakes...thats all im hoping for. But if the media and fans dont hold him accountable then he will never have to acknowledge the mistakes and wont feel a need to change. And the old wr debacle is just mind blowing to me. I was looking forward to seeing what we had in Thomas this year. But for Shanny to cut him for no reason and keep Galloway and Williams was just like I said mind blowing to me. And now people just jump all over Thomas and act like better recievers wouldnt of helped us this year. I just dont get it

The WR debacle left me very frustrated as well. If you search my posts during the season you will see just how "upset" I was. I mean if we were going to throw a 2nd rounder away for Old ass McNabb why not just keep Campbell and throw it away (for then) Denver Bronco WR Brandon Marshall.

Are we headed in the right direction ?

Personally, I have never seen a coach **** up so much (in Washington) in year one and keep his job. Not to mention still keep the faith from his players. Therefore, I would have to say yes. We have to be headed in the right direction. We add a new G, C, and two WR's to the offense and a NT, OLB, FS to the defense we should be a solid 8-8 next year.

Technically,

Nope. Its really yet to be determined. Will we play up/down to the opposing teams week in and week out or will we finally develop some real consistency?

What will our playoff record be if he start getting into the tournament?

Will we ever find a franchise QB post Brad Johnson?

Still some real questions that need to be answered by time & the new administration.

From one young fan to another HAIL!

[ChillSkinzFan84]

For you guys advocating two year shots for every coach,, get used to continuing to be a loser.

Unreasonable expectations lead to frustrated fans, and if they have their say, leads to more losing with the next guy.

It's called the coaching carousel, and on that particular merry go round there is NO brass ring. You just keep spinning.

It takes time, especially when a team is in the shape this one was in.

Here's some homework for you impatient guys.

Go take a look at the teams in the league with the most coaching turnover in the last ten years, and then look at their records.

Then look at the teams who give a philosophy a chance to work and their coaches stick for more than 2 seasons, and what their records have been.

Or don't. You already know what you're going to find anyway.

~Bang

I dont think we should fire Shanny right now, but I do have a problem with him having all the player personnel power. But using your logic i guess you wanted to give Jim Zorn another 2 years to build his system here in DC? Sometimes the writings on the wall

[Bang]

lol I feel you man we are in better shape. And we will be good to go if he learns from his mistakes...thats all im hoping for. But if the media and fans dont hold him accountable then he will never have to acknowledge the mistakes and wont feel a need to change. And the old wr debacle is just mind blowing to me. I was looking forward to seeing what we had in Thomas this year. But for Shanny to cut him for no reason and keep Galloway and Williams was just like I said mind blowing to me. And now people just jump all over Thomas and act like better recievers wouldnt of helped us this year. I just dont get it

---------- Post added January-10th-2011 at 04:54 PM ----------

Another good point that I forgot to think about. I was screaming for us to move LaRon to SS for years now. Kareem Moore really let me down this year though. He used to be a big hitter and now he just flops and misses. It seems like he was never the same after the knee injury in preseason. I hope he gets back to form though.

Assuming Shanahan had no reason for cutting Thomas ignores the fact that he did so after seeing him in every practice, every meeting, every game, and knew everything about the player available to him. He also did it with serious holes in our WR corps, a corps DT couldn't crack all spring and summer.

You don't have that luxury, even if you think you do.

You were looking forward to what you saw out of Thomas last year. Based on what a football professional saw this year, that wasn't enough.

Nevermind Carolina also cut him, and they haven't got a single wide receiver in that town that didn't get hurt this year.

It's like this, if you don't take our coach's word for it, take those others. Fox has been a Super Bowl, not like he's clueless, and could't find a place for him on a team with no receivers. Same with the McNabb flap. If you don't believe Shanahan, believe Reid.

It's not "blind faith" to understand that you lack knowledge of the situation that they have. It's not "blind faith" to measure his reactions against other coaches to see if they make more sense.

However, what IS blind faith is assuming from our once-a-week seat in the stands or on our sofa that we CAN see more than them, and that we know more than them when moves happen that make no sense to us.

Andy Reid always cuts players that people scratch their heads over. Bill bellichek does too. Team leaders, guys who can play.. they think nothing of moving them along if they see something that doesn't sit well with them. And they're right WAY more often than they're wrong.

Accountability is a strangve beast. In some people's minds that means that we expect results in a timely fashion. Me, I expect to be respectably over .500 starting in 2012, and never looking back from there. Next year I expect some more growing pains, and a little more clarity.

I think he's learned from his mistakes.. His escapades with McNabb pretty much show me that. Lots of guys would never admit that mistake, and would never make moves to move past it. In the past he hasn't shown much desire to do that,,, but I also think that his decision is also based in the fact that he's not ensconced here, and he's got to earn his keep.

We can all gas about our opinions, but no matter how much all of us think we know, we all hit that wall where our knowledge ends due to lack of personal experience. And where that ends, even among the most knowledgeable fan, the coach's picks up. Even the worst coaches.

~Bang