Isreali PM Netanyahu formally calls for President Obama to release of Israeli spy Johnathan Pollard

[JMS]

President Obama recieved a letter yesterday from Prime Minister Netanyahu formally requestioning the United States to release the convicted Isreali spy Johnathan Pollard. Saw this article in the Washington Post this afternoon along with a host of companion articles. I was rather flabergasted by the misrepresentation of the offenses of Johnathan Pollard or the sucess these folks have had in getting both Republican and Democrats to support this call for clemency.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/04/AR2011010403720.html

Thought it would be a good topic for discussion, what with all the misinformation out there.

Just a review of the facts.... Pollard a civilian analyst for US Naval intelligence; was convicted in 1987 of turning over thousands of secret documents to the Israeli government. Isreal refused answer questions or admit he was their agent for the next decade. To date Israel has refused repeated requests for a comprehensive list of what Pollard gave them and who was involved in the operation...

Before the court case was heard then Secretary of Defense for the Reagan Administration Casper Weinburger wrote a friend of the court brief to the judge. In it he outlined what we knew Pollard stole and how damaging that theft was to US National Security. The declassified part of this brief included the following text.

That information was intentionally reserved by the United States for its own use, because to disclose it, to anyone or any nation, would cause the greatest harm to our national security. Our decisions to withhold and preserve certain intelligence information, and the sources and methods of its acquisition, either in total or in part, are taken with great care, as part of a plan for national defense and foreign policy which has been con*sistently applied throughout many administrations.

Reportedly what Pollard Stole included:

• Nato's Defense Plans for Europe in the event of a soviet invasion, including where our re-inforcements would land.
  
• The NSA's digital bible; how we interpret radio and electromagnetic signals for intelligence purposes
  
• The raw intelligence material for the ME; which allowed Israel to reverse engineer our human assets and cripple our intelligence gathering ability across the ME on the eve of two Gulf Wars.
  
• The US nuclear submarine capabilities which (1) made us invisible to Russian subs. (2) allowed us to consistantly track their assets unbeknown to the Soviet Union.
  
• Cypher codes which gave the soviets access to both our codes and volumes of other raw reports.
  

Pollard pled guilty in exchange for lieniency under 18 U.S.C. §794, the section of the Espionage Act criminalizing the unauthorized disclosure of information that 1) results in the death of an agent of the United States or 2) “directly concerned nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large-scale attack; war plans; communications intelligence or cryptographic information.”

After he plead guilty the judge considered the friend of the court briefs submitted to him and voided the plea agreement giving Pollard a life sentense behind bars.

A decade latter Israel admitted he was their agent in an attempt to get Bill Clinton to Pardon him. The Israeli PM at the time ( Netanyahu ) believed he had an agreement with Cinton over the pardon as a sweetener for peace talks with the Palestinians. Repotedly several cabinent level officials in the Clinton Administration threatenned to resign if the deal was carried through; and Clinton backed away from the deal. Those cabinent officials included his secretary of defense, State, Attorney General, and National Security Advisor.

Anyway the best most comprehensive article I've read on the subject was out of the New Yorker by pulitzer prize winning Author Seymor Hersh.entitled "The Traitor: The Case against Johnathan Pollard".

http://cryptome.org/jya/traitor.htm

[Destino]

Don't see how on earth you can pardon that guy now with the wikileaks fiasco going on. The climate for that type of pardon just doesn't exist at the moment.

[Hunter44]

He's a traitor!! F Netanyahu.

[JMS]

Don't see how on earth you can pardon that guy now with the wikileaks fiasco going on. The climate for that type of pardon just doesn't exist at the moment.

Pollard is a kind of cause celeb in Israel. Netanyahu is playing to his hard liners by formally requesting a pardon from the United States. It's interesting to me that this comes so closely on the heals of the Israeli's rejecting US Plees to continue to a settlement freaze. We were offering pretty significant packages to Israel in exchange for them to continue to hold off building new settments. In the end the asking price was just getting too high and I heard we gave up. Wonder if israel threw Pollard into the mix?

I ido know that some key Bush officals have recently come out in favor of Pollard amnesty. Michael Mukasey Bush's most recent Atterney General wrote a letter to Obama endorsing Pollards release.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2010/12/23/2742305/mukasey-calls-for-pollards-release

Also a Former assistant secretary of defense Lawrence Korb under Bush Jr.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=200041

Think Barney Frank on the Democratic side has also endorsed it.

[FanboyOf91]

Let him rot.

[Hunter44]

I wonder how many US service men and women died because of this traitor. Netanyahu is a sh1t bag. I hope Obama wiped his as$ with the letter and sent it back to him.

See you in a week

~ES Staff

[JMS]

I wonder how many US service men and women died because of this traitor. Netanyahu is a sh1t bag. I hope Obama wiped his as$ with the letter and sent it back to him.

I think it's telling that the judge in the case set asside the plea agrement and gave Pollard Life. It's also think it's telling that the plea was for a specific section of the Espionage Act criminalizing the unauthorized disclosure of information that results in the death of an agent of the United States. It's the most serious section of the Espionage Act.

Personally though I would chew off my right arm in exchange for peace in the Middle East between Israel and the Palestinians. If we used Pollard for a catylist in such a case, I would say god bless, hold my nose and thank my stars. I don't think the Pollard chip should be used as any sort of sign of good will. Get a deal done, then maybe we kick in Pollard. Netayahu's pleas for clemency after a decade where Israel wouldn't even admit he was theirs, and they've never come clean with a comprehensive list of what was stolen; do not pursuade me.

I am pursuaded that Pollard is a cause celeb among conservative Israeli's; and their is value to be extracted from releasing him. I would tend to set that thresh-hold very high however. Pollard was likely the most damaging spy in US history on par with the Rosenbergs. It's facinationg to me so many congressmen an senators are willing to role over for Israel without even taking the time to understand the damage he did.

[aREDSKIN]

The sheer size, scope and sensitivity of what Pollard compromised, stole & sold should be enough to NEVER let him out of prison.

[Predicto]

Eff this guy. Seriously, eff this guy. Let him rot.

Netanyahu has some chutzpah, doing this now.

Personally though I would chew off my right arm in exchange for peace in the Middle East between Israel and the Palestinians. If we used Pollard for a catylist in such a case, I would say god bless, hold my nose and thank my stars. I don't think the Pollard chip should be used as any sort of sign of good will. Get a deal done, then maybe we kick in Pollard. Netayahu's pleas for clemency after a decade where Israel wouldn't even admit he was theirs, and they've never come clean with a comprehensive list of what was stolen; do not pursuade me.

I will buy this. If you can use him as a chip, fine. As a gesture of goodwill, no freaking way. What the hell kind of message would we be sending to the world if we rolled over on this, for absolutely nothing in return? What kind of message would we be sending to our own covert ops, about how much we valued their lives?

No way.

[Hunter44]

Eff this guy. Seriously, eff this guy. Let him rot.

Netanyahu has some chutzpah, doing this now.

I will buy this. If you can use him as a chip, fine. As a gesture of goodwill, no freaking way. What the hell kind of message would we be sending to the world if we rolled over on this, for absolutely nothing in return? What kind of message would we be sending to our own covert ops, about how much we valued their lives?

No way.

If we gave him up we'd get NOTHING in return. Netanyahu has lied so many times it's amazing that they put him back in power.

[The Sisko]

I wonder how many US service men and women died because of this traitor. Netanyahu is a sh1t bag. I hope Obama wiped his [posterior] with the letter and sent it back to him.

:applause: :applause: That would be my initial reply. However, over the longer term I'd advocate a different response for them (see below).

Personally though I would chew off my right arm in exchange for peace in the Middle East between Israel and the Palestinians. If we used Pollard for a catylist in such a case, I would say god bless, hold my nose and thank my stars. I don't think the Pollard chip should be used as any sort of sign of good will. Get a deal done, then maybe we kick in Pollard. Netayahu's pleas for clemency after a decade where Israel wouldn't even admit he was theirs, and they've never come clean with a comprehensive list of what was stolen; do not pursuade me.

I understand your point. I'd like to see peace in the M.E. as well. Aside from the benefit for the parties involved, I think it's one of the long-term solutions to our problems with Islamic extremist terrorism.

Unfortunately, your strategy is equally as mistaken as those of previous administrations. Instead of giving the Israeli's a blank check we need to reward their intransigence with our becoming more even handed in the negotiations process. Moreover, we need to make clear to them that they've been driving the bus too long. Our relationship with them isn't about Israel, it's about us.

So, how would that look? After winning reelection, Obama should put his lame duck status to good use by putting the possibility of delaying or even decreasing our financial, military, intelligence and other aid to Israel in play. "So, you wanna keep expanding your illegal settlements? No problem. But oh my, I can't imagine what could be going on with the delay in us sending you that annual $3 Billion dollars in aid."

AIPAC, the religious right, and Bin Laden/A.Q. for that matter would be incredibly P.O.'d but if we don't let Israel know who's driving the bus they'll keep doing the same thing until, well forever. Obama would risk ending up like Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin but if it resulted in a viable Palestinian state and M.E. peace he'd have finally earned his Nobel Prize.

[Burgold]

Yeah, I don't have any sympathy for him either. Israel should not get their wish nor do I think they really expect to. Obama gets to weild the "No" hammer and should.

[Kilmer17]

Does ANYONE think Obama should grant his release?

[China]

Does ANYONE think Obama should grant his release?

Netanyahu? :whoknows:

[JMS]

Unfortunately, your strategy is equally as mistaken as those of previous administrations. Instead of giving the Israeli's a blank check we need to reward their intransigence with our becoming more even handed in the negotiations process. Moreover, we need to make clear to them that they've been driving the bus too long. Our relationship with them isn't about Israel, it's about us.

Bush was a lap dog for Israel. Most American Presidents have been very pro Israeli, but bush took that to new levels of indulgence even reversing a very good decade fo the 1990's which clinton delivered.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, I think it would depend upon how Pollard was used. If Israel continues to try to steam roll the PA there is really no reason for the US to even endorse or involve ourselves in that process. If Israel decides to make some hard decisions and make some concessions in exchange for peace with the PA; I could see kicking in Pollard to placate the Israeli right. But I agree with you it would depend upon the deal and the utility. My point is their is not a lot I wouldn't do in order to make a verifiable and lasting peace more likely for Israel and her neighbors. I too am warry of handing over another chip and getting nothing in return though. Which would be a bad idea in my opinion.

So, how would that look? After winning reelection, Obama should put his lame duck status to good use by putting the possibility of delaying or even decreasing our financial, military, intelligence and other aid to Israel in play. "So, you wanna keep expanding your illegal settlements? No problem. But oh my, I can't imagine what could be going on with the delay in us sending you that annual $3 Billion dollars in aid."

The four billion Carter and Reagan gave Israel back in the 70's and 80's went a lot further than the four billion Obama has given them. Whch also gave Carter and Reagam more clout in dealing with Israel.

I think Israel is a very sophisticated player in American politics; as we are in Israeli politics. I think one sided dramatic steps as you are discussing would ultimately leave Israel less secure and less likely be in a position to risk peace. I'm more for constructive engagement and tamping down the violence on all sides while we grow moderates who are more likely to compromise. There is definitely room for a stick, but we must also use the carrot. I don't think a stick alone will improve the situation over there.

It's a fairly ambitious goal for the United States to just be a consistant honest broaker in that region.

AIPAC, the religious right, and Bin Laden/A.Q. for that matter would be incredibly P.O.'d but if we don't let Israel know who's driving the bus they'll keep doing the same thing until, well forever. Obama would risk ending up like Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin but if it resulted in a viable Palestinian state and M.E. peace he'd have finally earned his Nobel Prize.

Are we driving the bus? i don't think so. I think our role is to help create an environemnt where peace is possible. I don't know if we can achieve much more than that. If 70 years of conflict over their has tought anybody anything its that neather side is really suseptable to being steam rolled.... something which separates me from the current tactics is I believe the United States should have and voice opinions on issues, including some minimum conditions. This is really where Clinton went wrong; and it's why the US position after Clinton not only called for a separate Palistinian state but a "viable" Palistinian state. I think the US position should publically state what we mean by "viable" State. and I think as a fair broker we should ensure both sides of the troubles are understood by our people. These goals are as ambitious as I think we can be given how poorly historically we've handled these dealings.

---------- Post added January-6th-2011 at 10:23 AM ----------

Does ANYONE think Obama should grant his release?

George Bush's Attorney General thinks so. So does his under secretary of defense. and Barney Frank.

I think there are significant numbers of folks on the right and left who think Pollard should be released...

[Predicto]

Does ANYONE think Obama should grant his release?

Former Bush Official Michael Mukasey and 39 members of Congress. Sadly.

[mardi gras skin]

Does ANYONE think Obama should grant his release?

39 congressmen. All Democrats.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/nation/article/39_dems_urge_pollard_release_20101118/

Former Bush Official Michael Mukasey and 39 members of Congress. Sadly.

Mukasey, who is Jewish, is retired from public service. His opinion is neither relevant nor surprising.

[JMS]

39 congressmen. All Democrats.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/nation/article/39_dems_urge_pollard_release_20101118/

George Bush's former Attorney General.

George Bush's former undersecretary of defense.

Former GOP Presidential nomine and Republican leader Gary Bauer has also come out in support of Pollards Release.

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2010/111710.htm

There is significan support for release from both parties. It's not overwhelming support in either party.

The strongest message for why Pollard should not be released came from the threatenned resignation of four Clinton cabinent level officials. 3 Democrats and 1 Republican.

Mukasey, who is Jewish, is retired from public service. His opinion is neither relevant nor surprising.

I would just note that when pollard was first captured the strongest condemnation against Israel came from American jews. i wouldn't read anything special into a supporter of Pollards being Jewish. Clearly Pollard has a lot of non jewish supporters in both parties.

[mardi gras skin]

George Bush's former Attorney General.

Former

George Bush's former undersecretary of defense.

Former

Former GOP Presidential nomine and Republican leader Gary Bauer has also come out in support of Pollards Release.

Former

There is significan support for release from both parties. It's not overwhelming support in either party.

Barney Frank and the other 38 democrats are the only ones who signed that petition. I'm sure that there are several American civilians (especially Jews in support of Netanyahu) who are calling for Johnathan Pollard's release. But in the United States government, Democrats are pushing for this.

BTW. If you're equating Barney Frank's lunacy with Gary Bauer's lunacy, I can agree with you there.

[JMS]

Former

Former

Former

Yes they've been out of office less than 2 years. What's your point? There are prominent polititians from both sixes of the isle.

BTW. If you're equating Barney Frank's lunacy with Gary Bauer's lunacy, I can agree with you there.

Frank is like your crazy old uncle. Bauer is like your scary uncle.

[mardi gras skin]

There are prominent polititians from both sixes of the isle.

If you don't understand that currently serving congressmen are more significant and powerful in determining Pollard's status than former, unelected officials and candidates, I don't know what to tell you.

Frank is like your crazy old uncle. Bauer is like your scary uncle.

Both crazy, both scary. Difference is, you guys elected your crazy, scary uncle to represent you and we didn't.

[JMS]

If you don't understand that currently serving congressmen are more significant and powerful in determining Pollard's status than former, unelected officials and candidates, I don't know what to tell you.

If you are saying that a sitting US Congressman 1 of 435 is more influential than a man less than two years removed from the top spot in the justice department then I don't know what to tell you. Ultimately influential is all that matters; because the only person with the ultimate say is Obama. getting about 12% of democrats in the house to sign a petition is something any president would take note of. As is a personal appeal from a Prime minister of such a close ally in Israel. As is the former Attorney General who left office in 2009 under Bush. As is an undersecretary of defense and a former Presidential candidate who remains a significant power broker in the Republican Party.

remember senator Alfonse D'Amato nobody was as in the bag for Israel as that guy.

Like I said though as influential as those voices are it seems the majority of both parties still thinks Pollard should rot in jail.

Bottom line, gone are the days when the most vehiment support of Israel came from the left and the democratic party. Today the religious right and fundimentalist christians carry just as much water for Israel as anybody on the left. That's just the way it is. Many friends of Israel are also for Pollards release, and they cross both political isles...

To review how influential pro Israelis were in the recent bush administration I invite you to review who made up the neo-con movement. The top guys were overwhelmingly supporters of Israel.

• Paul Wolfowitz
  
• Douglas Feith
  
• Michael Ledeen
  
• Scooter Libby
  
• Charles Krauthammer
  
• Stephen Bryen
  
• David Frum
  
• Robert Kagan
  
• David Wurmser
  
• Dov Zakheim
  
• Norman Podhoretz
  
• Elliot Abrams
  
• Eliot Cohen
  
• Bill Kristol
  
• Joshua Bolten
  

Now my point isn't that republicans are more in the bag for Israel than dems. My point is while the bush administration was an abnomily for it's rubber stamp like support of Israel; Both parties independent Bush are both pretty consistant in their unflinching suppport of this country.

If an Israeli Prime minister wants it; that alone is enough to sway many American political figures to give it to them. I remember

Both crazy, both scary. Difference is, you guys elected your crazy, scary uncle to represent you and we didn't.

Difference is we have one funny uncle who is open and above board. You guys have lots of funny uncles who aren't above board; and lots of scary ucles too; all elected...

I can't remember the last time a sexual scandal in the GOP involved consenting adults of oppisite sexes. Seriously.

[Forehead]

I rarely get involved in political discussions because it's not something I follow, nor do I claim any expertise. However, just a few quick things I'm turning in my head here, maybe someone can answer them.

1. This Israeli agent stole a bunch of US government secrets and turned them over to Israel...and somehow the Soviets got their hands on some of it.

2. In the Chinese fighter jet thread, didn't someone say that we poured a ton of money into that project and then Israel turned around and sold it to the Chinese?

3. We give Israel how much in aid each year?

I know there are more examples than those first two, but they're the ones I've seen discussed recently. Exactly when did a country approximately the size of New Jersey get to suddenly decide when to do this ****; to dictate things to us? Exactly whose side are they on? I've generally been pro-Israel since I don't want to see an entire country "stamped out of existence" as Hamas and other groups would prefer, but each time I read another one of these stories, I get a little more pissed off.

If we cut Israel off completely, they're screwed. I know they have a ton of weapons, and much better ones than the Palestinians, but they've got them mostly because of us. How long would they last if we gave them the big middle finger and told them they were on their own. Ammunition only lasts so long, and the Palestinians have a lot more people. Sometimes, I think we ought to at least threaten them a little with the possibility of abandoning them, just to see how quickly their balls shrivel up.

Netanyahu can go **** himself.

[jpyaks3]

I rarely get involved in political discussions because it's not something I follow, nor do I claim any expertise. However, just a few quick things I'm turning in my head here, maybe someone can answer them.

1. This Israeli agent stole a bunch of US government secrets and turned them over to Israel...and somehow the Soviets got their hands on some of it.

2. In the Chinese fighter jet thread, didn't someone say that we poured a ton of money into that project and then Israel turned around and sold it to the Chinese?

3. We give Israel how much in aid each year?

I know there are more examples than those first two, but they're the ones I've seen discussed recently. Exactly when did a country approximately the size of New Jersey get to suddenly decide when to do this ****; to dictate things to us? Exactly whose side are they on? I've generally been pro-Israel since I don't want to see an entire country "stamped out of existence" as Hamas and other groups would prefer, but each time I read another one of these stories, I get a little more pissed off.

If we cut Israel off completely, they're screwed. I know they have a ton of weapons, and much better ones than the Palestinians, but they've got them mostly because of us. How long would they last if we gave them the big middle finger and told them they were on their own. Ammunition only lasts so long, and the Palestinians have a lot more people. Sometimes, I think we ought to at least threaten them a little with the possibility of abandoning them, just to see how quickly their balls shrivel up.

Netanyahu can go **** himself.

Israel can handle itself military wise, besides Hamas, Fatah and everyone involved has said they would respect a 67 borders agreement so Israel being wiped out is not an issue at all.

Israel doesnt care about the US, they care about themselves, which is fine I just wish the United States would do the same.

[Forehead]

Israel can handle itself military wise, besides Hamas, Fatah and everyone involved has said they would respect a 67 borders agreement so Israel being wiped out is not an issue at all.

Israel doesnt care about the US, they care about themselves, which is fine I just wish the United States would do the same.

Great, then why don't we stop giving them so much aid each year if they can handle themselves? Hell, we need to fix our debt issue, don't we? I don't know how much we give them; amounts vary depending on what web site you look at. One site said about 7 million per day, which is over 2.5 billion dollars per year.

And let's be honest, if the word got out that we were no longer supporting Israel, that we would give them no money, no weapons, nothing, don't you think Hamas and the other groups would be salivating?