Why not Cam Newton? An argument, and a comparison with Josh Freeman

[Conn]

Why dont you read my earlier post...I was one of the first to agree with the OP. I was responding to someone who brung race up with me. Ive been saying why we SHOULD draft him for the past few weeks now.

I've read all of your posts in the thread. And I still stand by what I say, none of that belongs here. Take it to a relevant forum, or drop it and simply talk about his football prospects. The potential for a great discussion is being derailed because people like you can't help but rise to posts about racism and address them, rather than continuing the more relevant discussion. And that started in the first place because the OP tainted what would have been a great thread about Cam Newton as a prospect, with multiple paragraphs about race.

I'm saying that everyone should rise above that and actually discuss him as a player, and as a good or poor prospect, because THAT discussion will keep this thread interesting right up to the draft, and after. The discussion that you're intent on having will get this thread, which has potential, closed in record time.

[Special K]

Yeah, not quite sure about all the dislike for Newton here. If there is any legit argument against him, it's that it's just too hard to project how he is going to do in the NFL after one season.

That being said, I'd like to see him here in WASH and bring him in on the wildcat or various redzone plays as he's mentored under Grossman. I don't know, having watched him play and seeing his athletic ability, I'm willing to take some time to develop him...

[Skins199021]

Mallet is terrible, and Locker has accuracy issues.

Out of the 4 QBs you listed, Cam is right behind Luck

Saying he is Tavaris Jackson is just silly. Cam has a much better arm and is physically dominant

Cam Newton is terrible! See I can make baseless comments as well.

Tavaris Jackson has a big arm and is extremely mobile as well, and isn't good.

Mallet is probably the best pure passer in the draft, but Luck is the complete package. The only thing Locker lacks is top accuracy, but that could be more crappy O-line, little supporting cast (outside one receiver). And is probably faster than Newton

Once again all 3 play in a pro style offense, where Newton doesn't, Newton also has the best supporting cast of the bunch.

[Floodzone004]

I can't get past the ridiculous race baiting at the start of this post. You want to ask if people would be acting this way if he was white. Let me ask YOU something...would you even be bothering to make this post if Cam was treated the way he's treated but was white?

Why is he compared to who he's compared to? First, I don't seem to remember reading many people comparing him to Jason Campbell frankly. I have heard Russel comparisons in regards to Busts, but that's likely due to the fact that he's the biggest bust of recent memory and possibly of all time. I heard Clausen talked about as possibly having bust written all over him like Russel...must've been because how black Clausen is. He's compared often to Vince Young. Now it COULD be because...omg he's black. Or, it could be that Young...like Cam...was known in college for being a good runner and that skill being a large part of his game. Strangely enough, black as night Tim Tebow was often compared to Young as well...crazy huh?

Netwon is an extremely different QB than Tim Couch so why refer to him as such? The only reason would be to highlight a large bust...but when people reference a bust you usually go the biggest or the most recent, both of which currently are Russel.

As far as the Danny Woodhead love, perhaps rather than people raving about him because he's white...as you imply...and thus like his athleticism it could be that he's NOT a 6'6", 250 pound, SEC playing, Division I physical stud set to go in the first round. Its the fact the guy is almost a foot shorter than that, 50 pounds less, undrafted, no-name Division II school player that gets such attention and amazement. You want to act like Cam is some once in a lifetime person? He's an AMAZING athlete...similar to Randal Cunningham, Steve Young, Michael Vick, Vince Young, and even Tim Tebow just before him. An Amazing Athlete amongst a plethora of amazing athletes from top tier conferences and schools such as Ed Reed, Vernon Davis, Adrian Peterson, etc. This is not to discount Cam, but he's an exceptional athlete from a general talent pool that sends forth tons of exceptional athletes. Chadron State and Division-II doesn't really have the the same claim.

I think Cam could be an electrifying and winning NFL quarterback, I also think he could be a huge bust. I'd say the chance for mediocre to bust is greater, but if things hit right he's got the potential to be exceptional. I would have no issue with the Skin's taking him, though I would if we traded UP go get him as I don't like the additional cost for a gamble. But I think you do a disservice to your argument when you spend three paragraphs focusing on his race and chastising people, when its pretty apparent there's a great deal of hypocrisy seeping through your post when it makes the reader have to ask themselves whether or not you'd be stating this YOURSELF if he wasn't black.

End of thread. Criticism has to do his small amount of pass attempts, simple offensive scheme, and major character concerns. Race has nothing to do with it.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Cam Newton is terrible! See I can make baseless comments as well.

Tavaris Jackson has a big arm and is extremely mobile as well, and isn't good.

Mallet is probably the best pure passer in the draft, but Luck is the complete package. The only thing Locker lacks is top accuracy, but that could be more crappy O-line, little supporting cast (outside one receiver). And is probably faster than Newton

Once again all 3 play in a pro style offense, where Newton doesn't, Newton also has the best supporting cast of the bunch.

I'll just put stevemcqueen's post up from the draft thread as to why Mallet is terrible. He shouldn't even be on our draft board much less a 1st round pick

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?328672-2011-Comprehensive-NFL-Draft-Database&p=8066279&viewfull=1#post8066279

Yeah I'm not a fan of Mallett at all. I think he's a crappy prospect and I wouldn't take him before the 7th round. Actually, I wouldn't draft him at all. I would much rather take Tyrod Taylor or some other long term project instead.

Consider Mallett's flaws:

- He doesn't play from behind center

- He only reads half the field

- He has a long, slow throwing motion

- He has goofy, uncoordinated feet

- He needs an enormous amount of room in the pocket to operate

- He has next to no mobility

- His accuracy plummets when he throws after being forced to move his feet (can't maneuver in pocket and reset)

- His ball placement is questionable even when he gets time to set his feet--his numbers look a lot better than they are because he throws to an elite TE and an elite WR who give him huge passing windows.

- His affect is ****ty and he comes off as thuggish and unintelligent in interviews

- There are rumors that he has a poor work ethic and maturity level

- The Petrino system he plays in is notorious for pumping out great looking college QBs who suck in the NFL

You could go on from there but I think that's enough to make him undraftable. Who cares about the arm strength? He won't be able to get the ball where he needs to the majority of the time in the NFL.

[Skinzfever2010]

This won't end until April. There is something about Cam that fires many people up in Extremeskin land and its interesting to see.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Looks like a Tarvaris Jackson, and I am threw with bad character guys, and you are only kidding yourself if you believe he isn't.

Plus he won't be able to run in the NFL like in college, making him more one dimensional, making him a worse passer. He is a thrower now a passer, and his Offensive scheme does not translate to the pros

Luck/Mallet/Locker are all better fits for the NFL

.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

I've read all of your posts in the thread. And I still stand by what I say, none of that belongs here. Take it to a relevant forum, or drop it and simply talk about his football prospects. The potential for a great discussion is being derailed because people like you can't help but rise to posts about racism and address them, rather than continuing the more relevant discussion. And that started in the first place because the OP tainted what would have been a great thread about Cam Newton as a prospect, with multiple paragraphs about race.

I'm saying that everyone should rise above that and actually discuss him as a player, and as a good or poor prospect, because THAT discussion will keep this thread interesting right up to the draft, and after. The discussion that you're intent on having will get this thread, which has potential, closed in record time.

What do you mean people like me? Dont say im intent on having it when I didnt even bring it up. I would be done discussing it if you wouldnt of brung my name into it, so dont call me out and think im not going to defend myself. Like I said earlier if anyone thinks that race doesnt play apart of it then your ignorant. And I believe I did say like 5 times that im not trying to make it about race and was simply responding to other people who brought it up NOT ME. Why are you singling me out like im the one who brought it up. Thats the problem people are scared to even discuss race thats why we cant get past it smh. And you saying that you have to close the thread because someone brung up a relevant point about race is sad in my opinion.

Ive said it for weeks that I believe he is a great player and has great potential and I would love for the Skins to draft him. I explained why I feel that way and none of it had to do with race. And if your discussing him as a prospect race does come into the equation for some people like it or not. I wish that wasnt the case but it is. So you stand by what you say and I stand by what I say...i think we both have the right to do that.

---------- Post added December-27th-2010 at 11:53 PM ----------

Yeah, not quite sure about all the dislike for Newton here. If there is any legit argument against him, it's that it's just too hard to project how he is going to do in the NFL after one season.

That being said, I'd like to see him here in WASH and bring him in on the wildcat or various redzone plays as he's mentored under Grossman. I don't know, having watched him play and seeing his athletic ability, I'm willing to take some time to develop him...

I agree with everything you said except the Grossman part. I dont think I could bear to watch him play 16 games next year lol. We would have a good pick though so maybe we should let him play lol

[Madison Redskin]

Where is the comparision with Russel or Smith? I haven't seen it. If you can point to it I would love to see it.

Search "Cam Newton Jamarcus Russell" on Google and you will get a boatload of links to blogs. Fortunately, no one in the "mainstream media" is dumb enough to make that kind of comparison.

I think there are valid concerns about Newton, most of which have been pointed out in this thread. So, I disagree with the OP that the doubts surrounding Cam are race-based.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

What are these character flaws people are talking about? He is a young kid who made mistakes just like millions of other kids his age. From watching him talk I think he has good character and has that IT factor. He bought a stolen computer? So what...he got paid in college? So have thousands of other kids whats the big deal?

[darrelgreenie]

No one can run like they did in college in the pros.

But if you can run in the SEC you can have some success running in the NFL especially when you're 6'6 250+ and have 4.4 speed.

Actually i think Terrelle Pryor is a similiar type of QB although with less arm strength, less consistent throwing motion mechanics and sloppy footwork but he does have similiar size amd running ability and Pryor comes from a more pro-style offense and Pryor could be had much later in the draft.

[Skinzfever2010]

No one can run like they did in college in the pros.

But if you can run in the SEC you can have some success running in the NFL especially when you're 6'6 250+ and have 4.4 speed.

Actually i think Terrelle Pryor is a similiar type of QB although with less arm strength, less consistent throwing motion mechanics and sloppy footwork but he does have similiar size amd running ability and Pryor comes from a more pro-style offense and Pryor could be had much later in the draft.

Can you imagine how scared ****less opposing D's would be if we did it right.

Right being, drafting him and putting him behind a line with a young RB. Right would be picking up a young WR and maybe singing one in the FA.

We could compete week in and week out in our division. Something I haven't seen since Brad Johnson and Norv Turner.

[Skins199021]

I'll just put stevemcqueen's post up from the draft thread as to why Mallet is terrible. He shouldn't even be on our draft board much less a 1st round pick

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?328672-2011-Comprehensive-NFL-Draft-Database&p=8066279&viewfull=1#post8066279

Just about every scouting report (ESPN included in Scouts Inc)

Basically says Mallet is good at everything except mobility (which everyone already knew), and that is why he isn't good for us because he needs an O-line.

Also says he is a very vocal leader, hard worker, and very involved with the community. Says character flaws only sparked up because of some disputed with the Michigan coaches (Im am going to assume lack of playing time)

And he does play in a pro style offense. Not saying he is right for us, but calling him terrible, then using a poster's scouting report is pretty asinine.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

No one can run like they did in college in the pros.

But if you can run in the SEC you can have some success running in the NFL especially when you're 6'6 250+ and have 4.4 speed.

Actually i think Terrelle Pryor is a similiar type of QB although with less arm strength, less consistent throwing motion mechanics and sloppy footwork but he does have similiar size amd running ability and Pryor comes from a more pro-style offense and Pryor could be had much later in the draft.

Yea if your 6'6 250 and run a 4.4 then your going to be able to run in the NFL no doubt about it. Now he wont have 1000 yds and 20tds like in college but he wiill still be a lethal threat to run. Pryor will def drop because people dont even think he should come out this year but he is probably forced to because of the suspension.

Back to Cam...I wonder why pro teams dont cater their offense to their athletic qb...do what they do well and put them in a posistion to succseed. Shanny doesnt know anything about that. But Philly started to do it this year with Vick and Tenn did it with Young but i think more teams should do that and use the athlectic ability to their advantage. Denver also does it with Tebow a lil bit. But if you have a qb who can run dont restrict him and make him strictly a pocket passer.

[Special K]

I agree with everything you said except the Grossman part. I dont think I could bear to watch him play 16 games next year lol. We would have a good pick though so maybe we should let him play lol

Grossman hasn't played as bad as everyone predicted. In fact, I have been impressed with how he has performed in this offense with so many of the youngin's. I'm not saying he's the long term answer, I don't think he is, but I'm happy to keep him around in Washington

[Skinzfever2010]

Grossman hasn't played as bad as everyone predicted. In fact, I have been impressed with how he has performed in this offense with so many of the youngin's. I'm not saying he's the long term answer, I don't think he is, but I'm happy to keep him around in Washington

Actually his stats from yesterday look just like D-macs lol

[HLF]

If we trade or release Mcnabb and Cam slips to us, we'd be stupid not to draft him. Rex Grossman is and will not be our Franchise QB.

[Conn]

Actually his stats from yesterday look just like D-macs lol

Even more reason to move forward with him rather than McNabb, then. He's younger, cheaper, and doesn't carry the same national-media-baggage.

But I would argue that Grossman looked much different accumulating those similar stats, and still executed the offense better.

[Skinzfever2010]

Even more reason to move forward with him rather than McNabb, then. He's younger, cheaper, and doesn't carry the same national-media-baggage.

But I would argue that Grossman looked much different accumulating those similar stats, and still executed the offense better.

I wouldn't waste my time. Your smarter than that. They both aren't who we really want here. Give me Luck or Newton. Hell I would trade D-Mac to Chi for Cutler at this point.

[Special K]

Actually his stats from yesterday look just like D-macs lol

Yeah, at a much cheaper price.

I wouldn't waste my time. Your smarter than that. They both aren't who we really want here. Give me Luck or Newton. Hell I would trade D-Mac to Chi for Cutler at this point.

No one is arguing that Grossman is our franchise QB, relax.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Freeman only had one "stellar" season, as a junior. Now let's look at Cam Newton's junior season:

2010 67.1% YPA - 10.52; 28 TD, 6 INT (20 rushing tds) = 48 total tds. 2589 yards on 246 passing attempts (1409 rushing yards; 242 attempts - 5.8 ypc)

These stats are, quite frankly, incomparable to Freeman's. This is the difference between an "elite" prospect and a "top" prospect.

Fun with stats. Cool. Can I play, too?

Your argument is so persuasive, it leads me to someone even better than Cam Newton. Unpossible? Meet the super duper top elite prospect:

69.6% YPA - 10; 20 TD, 7 INT ... 2700 yards on 270 passing attempts

Let's draft him!

Oh, wait. We already did. He's Jason Campbell.

P.S. That was Freeman's sophomore year that you were hot about. He passed 499 times. See if you can determine why that's important.

[Conn]

I wouldn't waste my time. Your smarter than that. They both aren't who we really want here. Give me Luck or Newton. Hell I would trade D-Mac to Chi for Cutler at this point.

As Keastman says, I'm not trying to argue that Grossman is our franchise QB...you could say that I'm smarter than that

I'd take Luck or Newton as well. And I'd trade McNabb straight up for Cutler yesterday.

But none of that changes that in terms of vet QB's that are already here, I'd rather stick with Grossman, over McNabb.

[MusicCitySkin]

There is no way Newton is going to be as successful of a runner in the NFL that he is in college. Even if he managed a couple of seasons of Dog Killer-esqe running, it won't last. Running QBs either stop running or get hurt. Even an elusive runner like Dog Killer has been banged up this season. Bottom line, you have a guy that isn't a running back making running plays. Eventually he's going to get hurt or he's going to have to change.

How much of Newton's success is dependent on his running game? One of the concerns about Tebow is that he isn't going to be able to play like he did in college. Yeah, he's made some runs in the couple of games he's played, but this ain't the SEC. Defenders in this league are out to hurt QBs. Eventually Tebow is going to try and rumble over a LB or a SS and get his ass rocked something fierce. Colt McCoy better heed the same warning because he's not even close to being built like Tebow. Dog Killer's success stems from his ability to elude defenders. Can Newton be elusive, or does he use his size to break tackles? This isn't college football filled with poor tackling and small defenders.

So with that said, can his passing game make up if he gets shut down on the run? Can he make the throws that need to be made when his running attack is shut down?

[mistertim]

I'm not even going to touch on the race stuff because it is irrelevant to me and should be in the Tailgate.

Newton is an amazing athlete. There is no denying that at all. I don't have reservations about him being taken at all, but reservations about taking him high...which is where he will go because someone will take a chance based on his athleticism and stat line.

My problems stem mostly from a couple things. First, he has flashy stats but a VERY limited sample size. He has had, I believe 246 pass attempts his entire college career. You're talking about a team using a top 3 (or maybe even #1 overall) pick on him, and spending ungodly sums of money on his contract based on about 1/4 of the attemps of many guys who even come out after their junior year, letalone 4 year starters. That is one hell of a gamble.

Second, he played in a spread option offense. That is different than more "standard" spread offenses in that usually the QB will have one main read (maybe 2) and if that guy isn't open he runs. That works great in college when you have a guy like Newton or Tebow but in the NFL defenses are faster, smarter, and can gameplan for things better because of that. Sure, it might work in the NFL at first, but in the long run a QB like that is going to have to learn to be a full time QB first, and a runner second.

Because the spread option offense is so simplified and because his sample size is so small there is no way to know how quickly he will be able to pick up complex NFL offenses and be able to read complex defenses and coverages and make decisions based off of that as opposed to "is this guy open? Yes: pass. No: run." I'm certainly not saying he can't or won't do it. Its just that there is no way to know. He may learn and adjust to it very fast. He may take a while to learn and adjust but eventually be fine with it. He may never really be able to pick it up. It is a crapshoot.

I think one of the worst things that could happen for him is actually to get picked that high. Almost any team that picks a QB so high up in the draft (especially #1 overall) is going to expect a lot out of the guy and in a pretty short period of time. A team isn't going to draft a guy that high and then sit him for 2 years while he gets adjusted and learns the pro game. He is likely going to be thrown to the wolves sooner rather than later. Unless an offense is completely tailored to him that could possibly be a problem for Newton simply because of his lack of experience even at the college level, letalone NFL level.

So again, it is a crapshoot with a guy like that when you're talking about taking him that high. A #1 overall, 100 million dollar crapshoot that could set your franchise back for years if you miss big on it. If Newton was available late in the 1st or early 2nd (which isn't going to happen) I would be absolutely fine with getting him, provided Shanahan saw something in him. But at that high up, IMO there is just too much of a gamble. It is always going to be a bit of a gamble taking any guy, especially a QB, that high but you want to generally be as sure as possible that the guy has a good shot at being a legit franchise QB before you pull the trigger.

[ChillSkinzFan84]

Grossman hasn't played as bad as everyone predicted. In fact, I have been impressed with how he has performed in this offense with so many of the youngin's. I'm not saying he's the long term answer, I don't think he is, but I'm happy to keep him around in Washington

He has played exactly like I expected him to. Ive watched him for years since he was at Florida. So i always knew he was/is sorry. But if you watched preseason then you knew what to expect. A servicable back up qb who can look decent at times but most of the time he will play like he did Sunday. He is a turnover machine and makes bonehead plays frequently. Right now people are saying that they willing to go with Rex next year but i'd be willing to bet they change their tunes the more he plays and the more the turnovers accumilate.

I def dont want him back as the starter...thats why when we traded for McNabb I said to keep JC because JC is a better qb than Grossman. Actually we didnt even have to trade for McNabb but that just goes to show you that Shanny didnt like JC and he would of started Grossman over him. Redskins fans are the only people who are comfortable with having Rex as the starter for a whole season and thats just because of blind faith. Even the homers on the radio on 980 know that Grossman starting for a whole year is bad news. I would rather start a rookie at qb than have Rex back there next year.

People just tend to exxagerate (see the people saying EVERY throw McNabb made was a ground ball or horrible pass, if that was the case he wouldnt be close to setting records and having 3 recievers close to 1000 yds) but thats why people thought Rex would be the worst qb ever, but if you were being realistic then you would of known how he was going to perform...like I said he is playing the same as he did in preseason. He is doing nothing that McNabb couldnt do but McNabb was doing things that Rex couldnt do. Rex is just taking advantage of good play calling. Out of the 2 games he has made a total of about 4 GOOD throws (by good i mean a difficult throw) every other throw is just a simple slant, screen, or pass to a wide open reciever on a out or a in. McNabb had a number of good throws though. But i know people wont admit it...like i said people are exaggerating the number of bad throws McNabb had this year.