Getting better, but skill positions powerless...

[Renegade7]

Okay, watching the game, going to watch it again; but this we already know:

Running back and Wide Reciever position need more talent BAD.

Defense had it's second solid game in a row, as did McNabb, so I feel a little more comfortable scratching those off my "dammit all the hell" list. We couldn't run the ball at all, we're constantly dropping passes or can't get open to begin with. And if Torain can't stay healthy, he needs to go, too, with a little bit of shopping (DeAngelo Williams and Vincent Jackson, anyone?) to go along with continuing to rebuild our o-line through the draft (free agency if someone comes up that makes sense).

Our record speaks for itself, we're better then last year. But I'm gaining more and more faith in our franchise QB and the 3-4 switch, and this rebuilding phase is in my eye ahead of schedule. Scheme and system effective, now we need the players to take us over the top. Guess what, what we need is not on the roster right now. And I don't feel need to trade away draft picks to make the jump from mediocre to an above average football team.

When our best offensive weapon is a return man (sorry santana, you officially got bumped today), that's just not good enough. If we hold someone to 17 points or less, we should win. Enough of the finger pointing and blame gaming, we need more talent. But that's just my opinion...

:helmet:

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Good Thread and I agree with most of your points.

It's funny because had it not been for that block in the back, we'd won this game outright.

There's no need to panic at all really because this team is ahead of schedule.

[2006Skins]

Agree with the offense. They just don't have much talent there. That's what happens when you waste draft after draft like this team did for a decade. Santana is done. Sad to say, but it's the truth. I'm lost as to why Davis doesn't get more targets. He's showing more and more every week

As for the defense, hard to get a measurement. Still a lot of missed tackles out there. Plus, injuries make it hard to gauge this defense's success. Last year VY got hurt and they beat a rookie. Today, Peterson got hurt and a rookie took his place and they held him in check for the most part. But hard to say that there is solid improvement in this defense two weeks after they got burned the way they did.

[Smurf85]

So my question would be is how were going to get all this talent we need and get players for the 3-4. As of right now we don't have the right players to run this defense either and this defense sucks. So how in the hell do we get talent on both sides of the ball with 2 draft picks?

[redskindan07]

Good Post!! This team is close to being good, some key additions and added depth and playing into the post season could make sense

[Conn]

People seem to fail to recognize that there was a real shortage of options to improve this team this offseason.

Already depleted number of draft picks (we traded back to aqcuire more picks AND Carriker)

The owners opting out of the current CBA really killed Free Agency in general.

Few really "trade-able" assets in terms of players that we can do without.

Basically, the amount of youth that was added to this team (even if we didn't start the younger players right away, or even play them at all) is pretty remarkable, given the circumstances. Especially considering that BECAUSE of the circumstances that I named, many of those players were low-level FA signings and UDFA's.

It excites me to think about the huge FA class upcoming, and starting the draft with 7 picks already, even if we don't have 3-4th rounders...but they're easy to recoup compared to 1st and 2nd rounders.

[2006Skins]

So my question would be is how were going to get all this talent we need and get players for the 3-4. As of right now we don't have the right players to run this defense either and this defense sucks. So how in the hell do we get talent on both sides of the ball with 2 draft picks?

You might be thinking of last year's draft because we have the normal amount of picks this year. We give our 3rd and 4th to Philly and NO (both conditional) and we get one from NO and one from Indy for the Tryon deal. So, that would be 7, which is more than 2.

Here's the info on all of the trades this year.

http://www.draftinsiders.com/node/35

[Conn]

Agree with the offense. They just don't have much talent there. That's what happens when you waste draft after draft like this team did for a decade. Santana is done. Sad to say, but it's the truth. I'm lost as to why Davis doesn't get more targets. He's showing more and more every week

As for the defense, hard to get a measurement. Still a lot of missed tackles out there. Plus, injuries make it hard to gauge this defense's success. Last year VY got hurt and they beat a rookie. Today, Peterson got hurt and a rookie took his place and they held him in check for the most part. But hard to say that there is solid improvement in this defense two weeks after they got burned the way they did.

Two draft picks?

As of right now (with no trading of players or trading back in the draft) we have:

1

2

5,5 (Brown trade)

6

7,7 (Tryon trade)

Considering that many of our young contributors this year are UDFA's and all of our draft picks but Dennis Morris are on the team (including developing on the PS), these picks shouldn't be discounted.

Neither should the huge FA class upcoming.

[GaryGreenMonk]

I agree..

however I think you are forgetting that we also need a groom MLB, FS, RT, Center, CB (if Rogers leaves), at least 1 ILB or OLB, and a NT (if Haynesworth leaves).

that's 3-4 years of drafts right there.

[KDawg]

I'd love to nab VJax OR Braylon Edwards and get James Jones to compliment them. Have Armstrong, Kelly (if he can be healthy) and Austin compliment them and Banks remains as a return man/big play guy.

But that could very well be a pipe dream. James Jones is one of the guys I want most this offseason to go along with Mankins.

One thing is certain, if our line play doesn't improve, we don't improve.

[darrelgreenie]

Did we have enough talent on the 1st drive but ran out of talent?

Or did we have a bad game w/ drops and playcalling that isn't as good once off the scripted openers when we abandon the running game and stop getting the ball to our mosted talented players like Fred Davis?

[2cents]

Yeah, I'm not sure how people expect us to be great when your three RB are off the practice squad, you have no receivers and just two good TE for your weapons.

[Renegade7]

Agree with the offense. They just don't have much talent there. That's what happens when you waste draft after draft like this team did for a decade. Santana is done. Sad to say, but it's the truth. I'm lost as to why Davis doesn't get more targets. He's showing more and more every week

As for the defense, hard to get a measurement. Still a lot of missed tackles out there. Plus, injuries make it hard to gauge this defense's success. Last year VY got hurt and they beat a rookie. Today, Peterson got hurt and a rookie took his place and they held him in check for the most part. But hard to say that there is solid improvement in this defense two weeks after they got burned the way they did.

To me, defense looks a little more comfortable in the scheme, and this is second week in a row we've held an opponent to under 20 points. That's not just respectable, but a helluva lot better then the slaughter house on monday night. I feel we need better 3-4 defensive ends more then anything else on defense. We're having trouble keeping our linebackers clean to do their thing and create pressure, and I don't feel talent is the issue in the back 7, 8, whatever you wanna call it. Not with London, Hall, Rodgers, Landry, Orakpo, McIntosh. It starts at the line, and we'll only get better from there.

Considering how many of our picks are gone already, unless someone awesome falls into our lap at our pick, we need to trade back and get more picks. That should most definetly coincide with Danny opening up the checkbook in March.

[Renegade7]

Did we have enough talent on the 1st drive but ran out of talent?

Or did we have a bad game w/ drops and playcalling that isn't as good once off the scripted openers when we abandon the running game and stop getting the ball to our mosted talented players like Fred Davis?

No, Vikings made adjustments and we had no answer for it. Duh.

[Dead Money]

Sorry to disagree.

OLINE. OLINE. OLINE.

Oh yeah and defensive personnel that matches the scheme.

[Renegade7]

I agree..

however I think you are forgetting that we also need a groom MLB, FS, RT, Center, CB (if Rogers leaves), at least 1 ILB or OLB, and a NT (if Haynesworth leaves).

that's 3-4 years of drafts right there.

Big Al and Rodgers ain't going anywhere. This thread was more about our most pressing need in my eyes, all those you listed are a given.

[Renegade7]

Sorry to disagree.

OLINE. OLINE. OLINE.

Oh yeah and defensive personnel that matches the scheme.

Ya, so what, you wanna send our new center or DEs out on a fly route next year? C'mon man...

[darrelgreenie]

No, Vikings made adjustments and we had no answer for it. Duh.

C'mon seriously, the Vikings didn't take Fred Davis off the field.

The Vikings didn't put in James Davis for Keiland Williams.

And if we had no answer for the adjustments does that make our talent vanish or does the onus fall on our coaches to make adjustments to make our offense effective?

Tana is a bona fide NFL WR and Cooley is a bona fide TE they dropped some balls.

Does a bad game make them less talented?

We have to look at everything.

The talent gap in the NFL isn't that wide.

Look at the Bears OL and WRs yet their passing game is better then ours.

Football is like a game of chess.

Sometimes its the Xs and Os more then the Jimmies and the Joes.

Just sayin.

[GaryGreenMonk]

Big Al and Rodgers ain't going anywhere. This thread was more about our most pressing need in my eyes, all those you listed are a given.

first, I beg to differ. There's a very good chance Big Al and Rogers are gone next year.

second, you made it sound like we are a WR and RB away from being NFC championship contenders.

That's just not the case.. at a bare minimum.. we need a Center, RT, WR, ILB or OLB, FS and potentially CB or NT to even begin to think we have a team that can make a playoff run. Those are all 1st and 2nd round needs unless you get lucky in a late round. So that's 3 years from now.

Add another really good WR, the other LB, a MLB to take over for Fletch, and another stud D line guy to take over for Carter and I think you could have a championship run team. That would make 4 years of drafts if you get lucky in late rounds a couple times in those 4 years.

Problem with that... McNabb will be 39. So you gotta sneak a groom QB in there somewhere.

[HAILSKINSNYC]

ofcourse we need to upgrade the talent, but it doesn't help when we don't maximize the talent we already have.....we have two good tight ends....moss is a good receiver...armstrong is dangerous...banks is dangerous...we have a good fullback....oh, and we have a hall of fame QB....sure the O-line isn't good, but look at the bears..their o-line stinks and they're 8-3.

[Renegade7]

C'mon seriously, the Vikings didn't take Fred Davis off the field.

The Vikings didn't put in James Davis for Keiland Williams.

And if we had no answer for the adjustments does that make our talent vanish or does the onus fall on our coaches to make adjustments to make our offense effective?

Tana is a bona fide NFL WR and Cooley is a bona fide TE they dropped some balls.

Does a bad game make them less talented?

We have to look at everything.

The talent gap in the NFL isn't that wide.

Look at the Bears OL and WRs yet their passing game is better then ours.

Football is like a game of chess.

Sometimes its the Xs and Os more then the Jimmies and the Joes.

Just sayin.

First of all, Moss and Cooley aren't bonifide targets if they're constantly dropping passes. Could our coaching been better, of course, but the point still remains that none of our skill position players are consistently getting the job done. Even if Davis isn't getting targeted, is it possible he isn't getting open consistently to help as a 3rd or 4th option, cause you can't argue he's been more consistent then Moss or Cooley. And this isn't just this game, this has been going on all year, man.

And as crazy as it sound, Bears is a bad example. We have the 9th rated passing attack in the league right now, Chicago is 27. Talent gap is wide enough you can see the difference between our WR and RB core and that of our division rivals. Its not even close, and it shows, it hurts us every game. We won't be able to get over the top unless we fix it.

[Renegade7]

first, I beg to differ. There's a very good chance Big Al and Rogers are gone next year.

second, you made it sound like we are a WR and RB away from being NFC championship contenders.

That's just not the case.. at a bare minimum.. we need a Center, RT, WR, ILB or OLB, FS and potentially CB or NT to even begin to think we have a team that can make a playoff run. Those are all 1st and 2nd round needs unless you get lucky in a late round. So that's 3 years from now.

Add another really good WR, the other LB, a MLB to take over for Fletch, and another stud D line guy to take over for Carter and I think you could have a championship run team. That would make 4 years of drafts if you get lucky in late rounds a couple times in those 4 years.

Problem with that... McNabb will be 39. So you gotta sneak a groom QB in there somewhere.

BS. I said we need to improve our skill positions to be on our way to becoming an above average football team. 5-6 is average, yet the majority of the games we're losing are by single digits. It will not take 5 years for us to be a playoff team, we aren't THAT far away.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this billion dollar franchise not being able to hold on to our best cover corner. And Big Al is still under contract and isn't giving us hell like he was before the season started. That ship has sailed already.

[Renegade7]

ofcourse we need to upgrade the talent, but it doesn't help when we don't maximize the talent we already have.....we have two good tight ends....moss is a good receiver...armstrong is dangerous...banks is dangerous...we have a good fullback....oh, and we have a hall of fame QB....sure the O-line isn't good, but look at the bears..their o-line stinks and they're 8-3.

Ya, and the bears also have the #3 defense right now. Eagles certainly didn't drop 59 on them today, and that woulda been a major difference in our record if we coulda had our defense play close to that in several games we lost. But are the bears going to the super bowl? Hell no. They got work to do on offense skill positions as well, and they know it.

[Smurf85]

You might be thinking of last year's draft because we have the normal amount of picks this year. We give our 3rd and 4th to Philly and NO (both conditional) and we get one from NO and one from Indy for the Tryon deal. So, that would be 7, which is more than 2.

Here's the info on all of the trades this year.

http://www.draftinsiders.com/node/35

Well I don't consider the 5th 6th and 7th rounds all that great of picks. I mean give me a break we have a 1st and a 2nd. We don't have a 3rd or a 4th where you can get steals like sleeper RBs. So again I say we only really have 2 good picks with a hell of a lot more holes than that.

[CounterTrey]

Can someone make a list of what our "true" needs are

1. True #1 WR

2. 2 guards and center and a Right Tackle

3. Free Safety

4. Inside Linebacker, maybe two

5. #1 Running back

5. True 3-4 Nose tackle and another 3-4 DE

We need about 7-8 players to trully content. And guess what, we might fill about 3-4 players by next year, so we still are at least two years for being a true contender.