The Daily Caller:GM-selling-at-a-loss-should-tell-you-something

[JMS]

Their problem was they built huge gas guzzlers and now they are a "green" company.

The number of auto industry experts on the board must be pretty small, good thing you found this thread to straighten us all out.

The problem was the banking industry fell appart and most people don't buy cars with cash. That meant nobody could get a loan and nobody could buy a car. No Cars. Not Toyota, Ford or GM's were selling. Toyota had money in the bank, Ford had credit already lined up; that's the only reason they were able to weather the storm. GM and Chrysler weren't so fortunate.

The bankrupcies had less to do with the auto industry and more to do with the banking industry...

[twa]

GM stock wasn't available to private investors. The large money mangeing boys bought up all the available shares and even caused the price to go up over the initial price set.

It is now...so you gonna get in on the gravy train or just cheer?

[chipwhich]

GM's valuation is also up significantly.

What valuation are you using? Provide me a link so I can make my investment decision

[The 12th Commandment]

The problem was the banking industry fell appart and most people don't buy cars with cash. That meant nobody could get a loan and nobody could buy a car. No Cars. Not Toyota, Ford or GM's were selling. Toyota had money in the bank, Ford had credit already lined up; that's the only reason they were able to weather the storm. GM and Chrysler weren't so fortunate.

The bankrupcies had less to do with the auto industry and more to do with the banking industry...

I was being sarcastic. I found the post I responding to one of the of the most indicative of fox talking points and contradictive to the real situation. Angry young men, with little education on the matter, should keep their mouths shut.

[The 12th Commandment]

double post

[chipwhich]

I was being sarcastic. I found the post I responding to one of the of the most indicative of fox talking points and contradictive to the real situation. Angry young men, with little education on the matter, should keep their mouths shut.

One day I hope posters here can have an intelligent conversation without using "fox talking points" as their only defense and actually defend it with their intellect.

[Burgold]

So, you want him to list the FOX talking points

[chipwhich]

So, you want him to list the FOX talking points

No would like him to post what the "real" situation is in his eyes.

[The 12th Commandment]

One day I hope posters here can have an intelligent conversation without using "fox talking points" as their only defense and actually defend it with their intellect.

I did that at the beginning of the thread and what I was responding to was actually just what you're complaining about.

[The 12th Commandment]

I did that at the beginning of the thread and what I was responding to was actually just what you're complaining about.

Edit: I dont profess to be an automitive industry expert. It seems that things worked out better than they might have. I'm happy that that's the case.

[JMS]

It is now...so you gonna get in on the gravy train or just cheer?

I'll probable pick up a few million shares. You know me, I'm a joiner.

Seriously though. Ford stock is up 65% this year. GM stock even with the good IPO stock has no where else to go but up.

Did you note that Toyota lost marketshare of the US auto industry for the first time in decades? Obviously if all the large money managers were knocking themselves down to buy at this price, it's a good buy...

Still their is only one gold standard, and that's gold. I'm still not selling my gold. Gold will be a good investment until the next presidential election. I'll buy more or sell in 2012 based upon who won, just like I initially bought gold based upon who won in 2000.

[JMS]

What valuation are you using? Provide me a link so I can make my investment decision

Businessweek is the best news source in the country today. Buy this weeks copy. It gives GM's valueation over time.

Or you could just pick up a newspaper and read that the IPO was larger than expected and still sold higher than expected; and it was exclusively offered to the large money managers; and base your investment decision on that.

What kills me is the idiotic arguments. The whacko fringe was flabbergasted that Obama loaned GM money. Now their flabbergasted that Obama is getting that money back too soon. How can anybody resolve those conflicting positions? Even then however the whacko fringe is missing the point. The GM bail out saved 1 million jobs... in a time when the country desparately needs jobs. What is that worth? Is it worth 100$ per job? 1000? 20,000?... That's why Obama bailed out GM, The fact that we are likely to get most if not all our money back out is a plus, but either way we are ahead.

[Thiebear]

I was a GM hater with the ginormous randomness of cars they didn't sell.

They appear to be doing a great job lately so i'd bet on them based on the before/after. I'd throw a few dollars that they are easily twice as good in 2 years.

[JMS]

I was a GM hater with the ginormous randomness of cars they didn't sell.

They appear to be doing a great job lately so i'd bet on them based on the before/after. I'd throw a few dollars that they are easily twice as good in 2 years.

They've got some pretty interesting cars coming up. The volt is going to be the most interesting thing to come out of the auto industry in 80 years.

[chipwhich]

What kills me is the idiotic arguments. The whacko fringe was flabbergasted that Obama loaned GM money. Now their flabbergasted that Obama is getting that money back too soon. How can anybody resolve those conflicting positions? Even then however the whacko fringe is missing the point. The GM bail out saved 1 million jobs... in a time when the country desparately needs jobs. What is that worth? Is it worth 100$ per job? 1000? 20,000?... That's why Obama bailed out GM, The fact that we are likely to get most if not all our money back out is a plus, but either way we are ahead.

As I stated earlier. Bailing out GM didn't "save" 1 million jobs. Did it save jobs? Sure. The exact number? I don't know. The fact is, as I posted earlier, had they not been bailed out, there would not have been someone just turning out the light and walking away with a final you're fired and a big hurrah.

The real truth is GM would have reorganized, sold off parts, revamped and come out and some different form. As part of the parting of the company, some jobs would stay with the "new" gm, some jobs with the new purchaser, etc.

Are we ahead? We won't know, only the future will tell. GM isn't out of the woods yet, and your business week "speculative" valuation based on "speculative" future is just that.

[Hubbs]

This is great news for the United States tax payer because it means we will get all the money we've put into GM back. Which is terific news. It's great news too for the Union workers. It means the substantial sacrifices that the union made with regards to loan and debt forgiveness in order to save jobs worked.

As for the premise of the article. It's idiotic. The IP is worth less than the company is worth? Idiots. The IPO set a record for the largest in history and it was substancially more lucrative for GM than was predicted. It was a great deal for GM and a great deal for investors and that's called business.

Nothing to stop GM from doubling the number of shares a little down the road and raise another few billion. Just because the company is worth 'X' today doesn't mean it can't be worth 10x 'X' tomorrow.

You have to be high. Seriously. You have to be high. You know what selling at a loss means, right?

Um Hubbs the government only sold about a third of their shares. Ford stock is up 65% this year. GM's valuation is also up significantly. If that trend continues the governemnt will get all their money out of GM. If it doesn't they won't. Either way as a first step this IPO was wildly sucessful.

Ah! So as long as the stock prices of the auto companies that we've had to bail out always go up, we win! Just like as long as housing prices always go up, there's no housing bubble! What could possibly go wrong with this plan? :doh:

By the way, adjust for inflation and tell me just how much the taxpayer has made so far.

[JMS]

As I stated earlier. Bailing out GM didn't "save" 1 million jobs. Did it save jobs? Sure. The exact number? I don't know. The fact is, as I posted earlier, had they not been bailed out, there would not have been someone just turning out the light and walking away with a final you're fired and a big hurrah.

I was quoting "The Wall Street Journal", the Center for Automotive Research, and the President fo the United States... I'll leave it up to you if you think your news sources are superior.

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/11/17/gm-ipo-auto-bailout-saved-more-than-1-million-jobs-study-says/

November 17, 2010

GM IPO: Auto Bailout Saved More Than 1 Million Jobs, Study Says

No matter what happens with Government Motors, the taxpayer intervention in the auto business appears to be a win for Americans, a new research report asserts.

Getty Images The Center for Automotive Research said today the government’s bailouts of the U.S. auto industry spared more than 1.14 million jobs last year alone, and prevented “additional personal income losses” of nearly $97 billion combined for this year and last.

Another 314,400 jobs were saved this year thanks to the $80 billion in taxpayer lifelines extended to GM, Chrysler, and the GMAC and Chrysler Financial financing businesses, CAR said. The research organization based its conclusions on the potential impact of auto-industry collapse for jobs at U.S. auto makers and suppliers, and cascading effects on the economy at large. See more on CAR’s methodology here.

The real truth is GM would have reorganized, sold off parts, revamped and come out and some different form. As part of the parting of the company, some jobs would stay with the "new" gm, some jobs with the new purchaser, etc.

The truth is they had no money to reorganize and no banking industry to draw liquidity from in order to give them time. GM did reorganize that's where the tax payer money went. That's the entire reason the governemnt stepped in. The market was broken, and largely due to no fault of their own; GM was about to cratter.

Are we ahead? We won't know, only the future will tell. GM isn't out of the woods yet, and your business week "speculative" valuation based on "speculative" future is just that.

[JMS]

You have to be high. Seriously. You have to be high. You know what selling at a loss means, right?

Selling at a loss means I'm selling at a smaller price than the price I bought it for..... For investors that's not a good thing. But If I'm the government and I recieved about half the personal income generated from all those jobs I just saved, (** personal income of nearly $97 billion over two years.. )

http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2010/11/17/gm-ipo-auto-bailout-saved-more-than-1-million-jobs-study-says/

Then maybe I have other ways of making money than just whether I sell the stock at a profit or a loss? Coarse let's not let the facts get in the way of your whack job government can never do anything right philosophy.

How about this fact. Ford stock is up 65% this year. The Government only sold a fraction of their holdings in GM in this IPO. Sometimes selling a little at a loss to get back into the market too is a good way to make more money on the majority of your stock down the road. Especially in GM's case which wasn't being publically traded before...

Ah! So as long as the stock prices of the auto companies that we've had to bail out always go up, we win! Just like as long as housing prices always go up, there's no housing bubble! What could possibly go wrong with this plan? :doh:

Not exactly.. Not even close actually... With the economy in the toilet and unadjusted unemployment around 16%... The country wins by saving a million good jobs; even if it does cost us some of our investment. If we get out without it costing any of our principle... and it looks like that might happen. Then that's even better.

By the way, adjust for inflation and tell me just how much the taxpayer has made so far.

Inflation is less than 1%? It's not expected to go beyond 2%.... That number is meaningless compared to the value of the GM deal for America's economy.

[Burgold]

What gets me is this. The American auto industry is coming back. That's a great thing. The Ford Fusion and the Volt look to be the hot cars of the now, esp. considering Toyota's timely difficulties. However, the complaint seems to be... GM had a major heart attack, was in the CCU on life support the family was debating on turning the machines off, but a radical intervention worked... GM pulled through and now, it's ready to leave the hospital, but people are pissed that two days out of the hospital it's not ready to run a marathon.

Seriously, we haven't had good economic news in a while. Take it. Hell, give the Republicans credit if you want since it happened after the Reps took over the Congress. Yay the House Reps stopped socialism by taking GM somewhat out of Government control and back into capitalist control.

[techboy]

This is great news for the United States tax payer because it means we will get all the money we've put into GM back.

If that trend continues the governemnt will get all their money out of GM. If it doesn't they won't.

1 post with no responses in between, 7 minutes, and you've already started backtracking. That's got to be an internet record.

Still their is only one gold standard, and that's gold. I'm still not selling my gold. Gold will be a good investment until the next presidential election.

Gold is not an investment, it's speculation. Here's hoping you don't end up the "greater fool".

Sometimes selling a little at a loss to get back into the market too is a good way to make more money on the majority of your stock down the road.

Uh, what? How does selling get one back into the market?

[Predicto]

One day I hope posters here can have an intelligent conversation without using "fox talking points" as their only defense and actually defend it with their intellect.

Funny that you should complain about that in this thread, where we have been havng a pretty intelligent conversation and the "Fox taking points" line only came up fifty posts into the discussion. :whoknows:

JMS hit it on thehead a few posts up. You cant forget that this happened in 2008, in the middle of the biggest banking crisis in 80 years. A traditional reorganization was not possible - because GM had no money and no one, anywhere, was loaning money. The only options were government intervention or a complete collapse, not only of GM but of the huge web of suppliers and dealers that rely on GM.

A few of the pieces would have been bought up and used by someone, but again, no one was loaning money so you would have had to be sitting on a huge wad of cash in order to do that. It is unlikely that more than a tiny percentage of the overall GM network would have survived.

[JMS]

Seriously, we haven't had good economic news in a while. Take it. Hell, give the Republicans credit if you want since it happened after the Reps took over the Congress. Yay the House Reps stopped socialism by taking GM somewhat out of Government control and back into capitalist control.

I wouldn't go that far. Obama used his own authority to bail out GM, over the objections of the Republicans in congress. You can thank George W. Bush maybe for requesting the President have such wide leeway in executing his TARP funds. Coarse it was the Democrats who voted to give Bush that authority which Obama inherited; No I would pretty much give the Republicans No credit for GM. They made a political calculation to not support the leader of their own party in 2008, let them soak in it..

[twa]

A few of the pieces would have been bought up and used by someone, but again, no one was loaning money so you would have had to be sitting on a huge wad of cash in order to do that. It is unlikely that more than a tiny percentage of the overall GM network would have survived.

Do you know what has been sold and what is slated for survival?

Do ya'll know how much GM and GMAC still owe?

What is their latest market share trend?

How much of a subsidy on the Volt is gonna be palatable?

inquiring minds want to know

[mcsluggo]

I'm not a fan of hail mary's...the stock is immaterial in the larger picture.

It's just money right?

let's not forget that success is predicated on this president's strong-arming bondholders and essentially wiping out shareholders of a private company -- tearing up legal contracts rather than allowing a traditional bankruptcy. Success means shielding benefits of United Auto Workers as a reward for helping make cars that are less efficient and more expensive.

At the time, George Mason University law professor Todd Zywicki wrote that by "stepping over the bright line between the rule of law and the arbitrary behavior of men," the president "may have created a thousand new failing businesses."

Confiscating the property of investors for the common good isn't generally conducive to a healthy business environment.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/11/19/the_cadillac_of_bad_ideas_108008.html

I am sorry for my coming language, but this post is fairly indicative of the original article, and also of a good many of the postis in this thread... ant it is...well.... a steaming turd of analysis.

seriously.

the CONSANT whing about "the confiscation" that took place for the pre-crash equity and bond holders is such utter and complete hogwash. They invested in a company that CRATERD. THeir positions were worth nothing*. Period.

Without a "bailout" they get nothing*.

HAD THE BAILOUT BEEN DESIGNED TO MAKE THEIR POSITIONS WHOLE (or even only propped up their failed investmetns) THEN <and only then> THEN the wall street bailout criticizms would've been true. Instead, the government made an economically efficient rescue of the core of the company, while allowing the MARKET'S punishment of the failed investors to stand.

Holy crap these arguments are both utterly ignorant AND INCREDIBLY DISINGENOUS.

as I said... a steaming turd of analysis. /QED

* ---edit--- in teh case of bondholders, their investmetns were worth peanuts, pennies on the dollar. Not nothing. On teh other hand what they received was EASILY cashews, or almonds ... many more pennies per dollar.

[mcsluggo]

GM stock wasn't available to private investors. The large money mangeing boys bought up all the available shares and even caused the price to go up over the initial price set.

as opposed to, say, ALMOST EVERY SINGLE other ipo in history? right?