The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Kosher Ham]

You need big men.

And have for a decade it seems.

You need a big guy that can get you 18 and 10.

A more versatile player like Odom or Dirk at that size would be ideal. But unlikely since the other teams won't likely let those guys go easily.

[Going Commando]

In the long run I think Blatche, and maybe even McGee, might be best suited as energy guys off the bench. I'd kill to have Harrison Barnes but I doubt the gods would bless us with back to back #1 picks.

I'd settle for the first or second pick. I think we're probably bad enough to deserve them.

Barnes would be great, and I think he makes the most sense for us at the top of our draft board from a need/talent consideration. UNC does a good job of holding onto their star players though, and sometimes their freshmen can have a hard time getting minutes.

I like Perry Jones though. He kind of reminds me a bit of Durant in how freakishly long he is for his position. He's the type who could be an absolute beast of a wing player with a PG like Wall to facilitate him. Plus he gives you the ability to play in the post a bit too when Blatche and McGee sub out. With all three of them out there, you'd have a ton of size on the floor. That'd be a nice team. If You can get 14-16 points a night from McGee and Blatche, that would probably give us enough to win with alongside Wall's production and Jones' 25 points a game.

I would still prefer we ended up with an elite center though. Has anyone heard about this kid Andre Drummond from Mt. Vernon, NY? He's only a HS senior this year, so he won't be available until 2012. If we were going to win the lottery again, I wish it would be the year he comes out.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

You need big men.

And have for a decade it seems.

You need a big guy that can get you 18 and 10.

A more versatile player like Odom or Dirk at that size would be ideal. But unlikely since the other teams won't likely let those guys go easily.

I actually think Blatche will develop into a "18 and 10 guy".

Now what we do need is presence in the middle.

McGee is incredibly athletic but he's not physical enough. At least not now.

Ideally, he'd be the perfect center to run with the second unit.

[Warhead36]

Haywood was a real good C, but he's starting to age a bit and it was time for us to unload him since he's not of much use on a rebuilding team. I think a lot of Wiz fans didn't really appreciate Haywood but he was one of the better defensive Cs in the league.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Haywood was a real good C, but he's starting to age a bit and it was time for us to unload him since he's not of much use on a rebuilding team. I think a lot of Wiz fans didn't really appreciate Haywood but he was one of the better defensive Cs in the league.

I think we appreciated Haywood when he gave us a reason to appreciate him. When it was Etan vs Todd, they both sucked. Hell there was a point there where a good majority of fans thought Etan was the answer. (Remember Brenda?) But eventually Haywood moved past all of that and stepped up big time.

Anyway, just finished the game. ****ty loss but whatever. Anything short of John Wall blowing out his knee isn't going to get me down this year. I'm not gonna ***** and complain, what is, is. Just as long as we show proper improvement from game 1 to game 82, I'm happy.

Some thoughts on the game, in no particular order...

I still got a little faith in Javale McGee. He's just so freaking athletic. I can't think of a center like him in the league. Dwight is just as athletic but he's just the ultimate power athlete. Nobody like him. Javale is long athletic. That one where he grabbed the floater out of there was a goaltend though, lol.

I found it hilarious that the one time in his career that Blatche decides he wants to man up and dunk the ball the **** is straight up rejected. Then

5 seconds later he decides to do a finger roll, lol. Maybe he's had it right all along. But yeah, great game from him. Played hard. Fought on D, fought down low, fought for rebounds. That's what I want to see.

Our defense is just maddening. There are points where I just close my eyes. I don't even need to watch to know what's going to happen. This is the NBA. Wide open shots are gonna be made 80% of the time. I'm not sure whether they don't understand how to play defense (yet, hopefully) or if they just can't. To me it seems different then the teams of the past few years. The past few years Gil, Caron, AJ, et al just looked slow on D. Like they couldn't. This team looks like they can but don't know how to? I don't know. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

Gil still sucks at D. One on one, Wall isn't much better at times. But he can get there. He's got the athleticism, the length and, most importantly, the energy/heart to step it up. He is aggressive (too much at times). Defense means something to him.

More on Wall, he's gonna be absolutely unstoppable once he gets his shot down and builds up his confidence in it. You saw glimpses of it tonight. After the Philly game, the last two teams--the Knicks last night, the Cavs tonight--made a point of doubling him, playing off of him, shutting down his paths to the basket. Daring him to shoot. And he didn't shoot a lot tonight but when he did he drained them. I heard something on the radio about some guy on ESPN doing a study on Wall and found that his shooting has gotten better each and every game. It's coming.

One gripe with Wall: he picks up his dribble way too early way too often. You see him standing there struggling to find somewhere to pass it, five feet outside the three point line. He'll learn.

Here's the difference between Wall and Evan Turner. Wall has stuff to work on, no doubt. But it's stuff that anyone can get better at. Not picking up the dribble, not getting overly aggressive on D, shooting the ball (I'm a firm believer anyone can learn how to shoot. Decently anyway), not forcing passes, taking better care of the ball, etc. Really most of his issues are him trying TOO HARD and him finding himself on the biggest stage in the game. On the other hand, Turner has all of that down. He's a polished player. But he doesn't have that jaw dropping potential that Wall does. I know it's a small sample size but I saw enough Tuesday night. Sometimes you can just tell. Don't get me wrong, he'll be a nice player. But he's not a star. He's not a #1 that can lead a team to a championship. I think Wall does. (Yup, full blown man crush in effect. Biggest ever.)

See Wall's coast to coast dunk to end the first half. It ultimately didn't count but still. I can't remember seeing something like that since Tyus Edney's coast to coast game winner in the NCAA Tourney way back in 1995. And Edney didn't dunk it.

And I've got to give props to Kirk Hinrich. After the first three games I was starting to worry that we had gotten a washed up player. But he really put it together tonight. He is a GREAT addition. He's a hardnosed pure point guard, a decent to good shooter, and our best on ball peremiter defender. Plus he's a leader. Don't know if they showed it on TV or not but before the home opener Tuesday, they gave him the mic and he said a few words to the crowd. Basically thanking us for coming out and promising us a great season. Good guy.

Also, good game from Al Thorton. He brought it tonight. I'm not sure if he's just an inconsistent player or if his opportunities game to game come inconsistently. Him not getting burn at the end after the way he played all game, I'm leaning toward the latter.

I'm not gonna cry about Flip. He'll either get it done or he'll be gone. Abe (RIP) isn't here anymore. Coaches aren't gonna be sticking around because Ted likes them personally.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Never underestimate Cowherd's stupidity.

But in regards to the part I quoted, put the debate this way:

Durant might go down as the best combo 2/3 ever, second best perimeter scorer ever.

Wall has the ability to go down as the best pure point guard ever.

r

Now thinking about it like that, which one would you rather take? I think positional importance has to figure strongly into the equation. Perimeter scorers who can give you 24+ points a game are a dime a dozen. There's never been another player like Durant before, but you can get a guy who'll give you close production nearly every single year. PG and C are the two most valuable positions you can build around and there are swarms of good 2s and 3s in the league right now. If I were building a team with the ability to choose from every player in NBA history, my first pick would be Kareem and not Jordan or Bird.

Point guards with no weaknesses and freakish athletic gifts (speed, length) like Wall are extremely rare. Also factor in Wall's youth, precociousness, and leadership skills. He's captaining a team as a 20 year old rookie, two years removed from high school. I think he's the most desirable building block in the league outside of Howard.

I get what you're saying. And I agree to an extent. But we're just gonna disagree on the players. I think you might be making what I perceive to be a mistake that I see a lot of basketball fans make. They look at the stats and the positions and the skill set but they don't look at the individual. I'm talking heart, drive, desire, leadership, all of that.

I'm taking Jordan over Kareem. That's just how I feel. He was a dominate player but he also had that drive. You take away Oscar Robertson and Magic from Kareem does he have any championships? Who would you take away from Jordan's teams that would deny MJ his? Scottie? Ehhh. I think they could've found someone to fill that spot. They might not have won 6 or 72 but I think MJ still gets rings.

I think Durant, ultimately, is going to be on that level.

And fwiw, Wall is 20 and two years removed from high school but Durant is just 22 and four years removed. I don't think that's a big enough of a difference to really even mention. And Durant is a leader too. Lead a team from Oklahoma City that played the eventual NBA champs tough for six games. Then he lead the US to their first FIBA gold medal since '94. He put that team on his back and dominated the entire world.

Also, for what Durant gives you skills wise, who is a step below that right now? Are they closer to Durant than Chris Paul or Rondo or whoever is going to be (god willing) to John Wall.

But still, if you haven't noticed, I'm absolutely giddy over Wall, The only person I take over him right now is Durant. I'd take him over Howard.

I didn't mean to ignore you before. Friday/Saturday are my big money workdays. I love your draft stuff in the Stadium and it was bugging me that I hadn't responded yet.

Edited November 7, 2010 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[Hubbs]

I think the jury's still out on McGee. Yeah, the only shot he can hit is a dunk, but he can dunk really well, and he can also block shots better than anybody except Dwight Howard (hat tip to GACOLB for the comparison).

He's got his flaws. Who doesn't? Let's maximize his strengths and try to compensate for his flaws.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Hubbs

[endzone_dave]

Look at the +/- of the bench last night. The starters actually did well but the bench was horrible.

[fullnelson9999]

For those who didn't see the end of the first half...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Ayf4p8f80

[Going Commando]

I get what you're saying. And I agree to an extent. But we're just gonna disagree on the players. I think you might be making what I perceive to be a mistake that I see a lot of basketball fans make. They look at the stats and the positions and the skill set but they don't look at the individual. I'm talking heart, drive, desire, leadership, all of that.

Wall has all of that though. I think he's even more firey than Durant is. Durant had a bit of a slow start as a rookie and Wall comes in producing at a high level (top 5 in steals/assists) when he hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet. Wall's a smart guy--he says all of the right things, has a great attitude, and has a great understanding of the game already. He shocks me with how precocious he is. He was born to play this game.

I love Durant. I love his game and he's an awesome guy--Redskins fan, humble, likeable. Rare as he is, I don't think he's as rare an individual as Wall. He started slower, seems more shy and less vocal. And his position hurts him in regard to how rare he is. Good wing players come out every single draft. Take this year for instance--Harrison Barnes is just as skilled as Durant was as a college freshman. Perry Jones is even more of an athletic freak than Durant (faster, taller, similar reach, stronger). Neither are quite the complete package that Durant is, and these guys may not pan out, but they illustrate that the league is crowded with guys in the 6'7-6'9 range and will always be.

I'm taking Jordan over Kareem. That's just how I feel. He was a dominate player but he also had that drive. You take away Oscar Robertson and Magic from Kareem does he have any championships? Who would you take away from Jordan's teams that would deny MJ his? Scottie? Ehhh. I think they could've found someone to fill that spot. They might not have won 6 or 72 but I think MJ still gets rings.

I disagree here. I think it's Robertson who never would have won a ring without Kareem, not the other way around. Robertson spent a decade in futility with the Royals, then he got one in his first shot with Kareem. Kareem was a champion going back to his UCLA days where he won one each of his three seasons. Magic was also the second banana on those Lakers teams behind Kareem, probably up until the very end when Kareem was about 40. I'd say the torch wasn't really passed until the '86 season.

No player has ever consistently won on his own. Say what you want about Jordan's determination and leadership, but he didn't win anything until he had Pippen. He might have gotten a ring in a down year, but that's about as far as I think he'd go. The greatest winners in NBA history have always needed another great to accompany them. But both Jordan and Kareem were the clear best players on their team while they were winning.

Then stack their achievements up side by side, they look about the same--6 time champion, 6 time MVP (Jordan had 5), Kareem was a 19 time all-star and 11 time NBA all-defensive team player so on longevity he thumps Jordan. On positional value, Kareem wins by a wide margin.

Center and PG are your quarterback positions. Their value can't be overstated. To put it in football terms, I'd look at it this way. Jordan is the Jerry Rice of basketball. Arguably the greatest individual player in the history of the sport, head and shoulders better than anyone else who's ever played his position. Kareem is the Joe Montana of Basketball. If you're trying to build a championship team, you take Montana over Rice.

Just for fun, Bill Russell is the Otto Graham. Robertson is the Dan Marino. Stockton is the Steve Young. LeBron will go down as the Jim Brown (unprecedented physical freak of nature at his position).

And fwiw, Wall is 20 and two years removed from high school but Durant is just 22 and four years removed. I don't think that's a big enough of a difference to really even mention. And Durant is a leader too. Lead a team from Oklahoma City that played the eventual NBA champs tough for six games. Then he lead the US to their first FIBA gold medal since '94. He put that team on his back and dominated the entire world.

You've got a point about the age. But OKC wasn't good until last year and Durant has a better supporting cast around him now than Wall will have for the forseeable future. And Durant didn't single handedly win us that FIBA championship. He was playing along side the brightest young stars in the NBA-Rose, Evans, Gordon, Curry, etc. And we can be gracious to the competition all we want, our second stringers on the world team own a massive talent advantage over every other country's A side, especially since most of the best foreign players in the world sat this tourney out. Durant was clearly the best player on our team. But he wasn't the only one who got us there.

Also, for what Durant gives you skills wise, who is a step below that right now? Are they closer to Durant than Chris Paul or Rondo or whoever is going to be (god willing) to John Wall.

There are more elite wing players in the NBA than there are elite PGs. Paul and Rondo are great and each bring some of the skills to the table that Wall will eventually have (length and ability to play above the rim for Paul, shooting for Rondo). But neither are the complete package like Wall. I also think you could add Rose and Deron Williams into the category with Wall to make a big five. A solid second tier of true PGs would be Curry, Harris, Westbrook, Conley, and maybe Aaron Brooks. Evans is a combo guard and not a true PG, on our team he would be a wing. (I also left out Nash, Kidd, Miller, and Parker because they'll all retire within the next few years).

For wing players, I think LeBron is actually more talented than Durant is. Following those two, I don't see a big dropoff to Carmelo, Kobe, and Wade. That's your big 5. After them, you've got a strong second tier of Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis, Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Danny Granger, and Gerald Wallace. Give me Wall and any one of those second tier wing players, and I think you've got a better team on your hands than Durant and a second tier PG provided the rest of the supporting cast is identical.

But still, if you haven't noticed, I'm absolutely giddy over Wall, The only person I take over him right now is Durant. I'd take him over Howard.

Howard has his weaknesses, namely shooting. But I think he alters your opponent's game plan more than anyone else in the league. How many teams in the league can single guard him? I think the Celtics are the only one. And even if you do, he'll still get decent numbers and play dominant defense. Only a handful of guys in the league can play above the rim like him. That said, I think Javale McGee is one of them. If he could ever put it all together, man he'd be good.

I didn't mean to ignore you before. Friday/Saturday are my big money workdays. I love your draft stuff in the Stadium and it was bugging me that I hadn't responded yet.

Haha, no it's all good. Thanks for the kind words. I really enjoy reading your opinions about the Wizards and I think you bring a lot of knowledge to the table. Edited November 7, 2010 by stevemcqueen1

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I'm taking Jordan over Kareem. That's just how I feel. He was a dominate player but he also had that drive. You take away Oscar Robertson and Magic from Kareem does he have any championships?

Oscar wasn't in his prime when the Bucks won the title.

Kareem was the dominant player on that team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1971.html

Edited November 7, 2010 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[Going Commando]

I think the jury's still out on McGee. Yeah, the only shot he can hit is a dunk, but he can dunk really well, and he can also block shots better than anybody except Dwight Howard (hat tip to GACOLB for the comparison).

He's got his flaws. Who doesn't? Let's maximize his strengths and try to compensate for his flaws.

McGee is a small forward in a center's body. In terms of his ability to block shots and grab defensive boards, he's top five in the league (if he gave consistent effort). Howard is probably the only other seven footer with better athletic ability. Maybe Amare Stoudemire does, although he's not much of a defender either. With better focus and mental discipline, I think McGee could grow into an elite defender. He's still a bit skinny to be a tough low post presence, but he's got the feet and length to stifle.

Offensively, McGee strikes me as what we in tennis call a "shot artist." He's only happy when he gets to get creative with his shots in transition. He wants to show off his athleticism and throw down dunks and he gets bored and loses focus when he can't do this. Developing a post game is very hard and it takes years to do. A lot of players never do it. But McGee needs to show the willingness and work ethic to get there and I'm not sure he has so far.

The thing to keep in mind with McGee is that he's only 22. Center has the steepest learning curve and McGee still has plenty of time to prove himself. But damned if he doesn't do enough stupid things to make you think he'll never figure it all out.

Speaking of centers, check out this Andre Drummond kid from New York. He's 17 and already in the 6'10 - 260 lb. range with the likelihood of ending up well over 7'. He runs like Amare Stoudemire too. He looks like the next big thing.

Edited November 7, 2010 by stevemcqueen1

[Hubbs]

For those who didn't see the end of the first half...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Ayf4p8f80

I know it didn't count, but that was ****ing epic. He's so damn fast.

Oh, and also, Steve (different post), that's exactly why I'm willing to wait on McGee. I think he's going to turn into a beast in time.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Oscar wasn't in his prime when the Bucks won the title.

Kareem was the dominant player on that team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1971.html

They don't win without Robertson. I never said that he was the most dominant player. The Bucks dominate the next two years (but fail to win the championship.) Then Oscar retires and with Kareem still on the team, in his prime, the Bucks finish in last place.

I think my point still stands. You take away Oscar from that team, Kareem doesn't win the title with the Bucks. You take away Magic from the Lakers, Kareem doesn't win titles there. Who do you take away from Jordan that would've prevented him from winning a title?

I'm about to eat, but I got you at some point SteveM.

Edited November 7, 2010 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

stevemcqueen, you're my hero.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

They don't win without Robertson. I never said that he was the most dominant player. The Bucks dominate the next two years (but fail to win the championship.) Then Oscar retires and with Kareem still on the team, in his prime, the Bucks finish in last place.

I think my point still stands. You take away Oscar from that team, Kareem doesn't win the title with the Bucks. You take away Magic from the Lakers, Kareem doesn't win titles there. Who do you take away from Jordan that would've prevented him from winning a title?

Believe it or not, Scottie Pippen.

Edited November 8, 2010 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[Going Commando]

Believe it or not, Scottie Pippen.

Yeah that's what the 80's taught us. Jordan could win MVPs but he couldn't unseat the Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics until he had another top 50 all time sidekick to help him out. That's not to take anything away from him. No great player has ever been able to consistently win without another Hall of Famer or top 50 player to work with. Or at least they've needed a supporting cast involving multiple current all-stars like Tim Duncan's or 2000's Detroit.

Bird had McHale, Parrish, and Walton

Kareem had Magic and Worthy

Havlicek had Cowens, Russell, and Sam Reed

Dr. J had Moses Malone

Hakeem had Drexler

Isiah had Dumars

Chamberlain had Jerry West, Hal Greer, Elgin Baylor, and Billy Cunningham

Shaq had Kobe and Wade

That's about all I can think of. It seems that all great teams require multiple great players, or at least 4 or 5 very good players. In that regard, I think it's misleading to use championships as a measure of individual success or else Bill Russell would look like the greatest in NBA history. If you focus on just individual achievements, I think Kareem's are the most impressive in the history of the league and I think he did a lot to change the nature of both his position and the sport back in the time when it was still kind of a niche league. Kareem was one of the main faces that brought the game into the mainstream--not to take anything away from Chamberlain, but I don't think he had the same kind of lasting imprint on the sport.

And Wilt's star turn in the second Conan, awesome though it was, wasn't as awesome as Kareem's cameo in Airplane.

Edited November 8, 2010 by stevemcqueen1

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Click on the link to read the rest.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/07/AR2010110704095.html

Wizards are easing Gilbert Arenas back in

Arenas has come off the bench to score 31 points through his first two games but he is also attempting to regain his rhythm - with the game and his new teammates - and lose the nearly 10 pounds he said he gained while being unable to run. He is also trying to find a comfortable role in an offense that no longer is centered on his talents.

"We're trying. It's tough when a guy misses so much time, especially a guy like Gilbert, where almost everything used to be run around him. It's just a big adjustment," Kirk Hinrich said. "I don't know if I necessarily notice the rust; it's a matter of getting him acclimated with the group. We need him, we need his scoring and we all have to make a conscious effort to make him a big part of what we do down there."

Although he has missed some time, Arenas has still proven to be an effective shot maker, especially in the fourth quarters, when he has scored a combined 22 points and shot 8 for 15. But Saunders said he noticed that Arenas turned down opportunities he should've taken. "I just don't want to seem like I'm shooting too much," Arenas said. "I didn't want take away from what the team has been doing."

Arenas laughed when asked how he would adjust to playing off the ball after being a point guard throughout his career. "Point guard? I was a shooting guard for a while," he said. "It's no difference. I was used to catching and shooting, but I don't get as tired and I don't turn the ball over."

Wall collected his ninth and 10th assists connecting with Arenas in the fourth quarter on Saturday. He found him open for an 18-foot jumper that put the Wizards ahead 88-85 and also for a late three-pointer. The two hooked up for a highlight when Wall stole the ball from Mo Williams and flipped a no-look pass to Arenas, who found Andray Blatche cutting to the hoop for a two-handed dunk.

The ability for Wall and Arenas to mesh is a question that will be asked all season, but it hasn't been a concern for them. "It's not a big deal for us. He's trying to help us win. I don't think it's a challenge at all. Gil can score in various ways," Wall said. "I think he's getting his rhythm back. He feels he needs to start driving more, that's going to get him to get his legs back underneath and get him used to playing with us again."

Edited November 8, 2010 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[No Excuses]

Gil will get his game back. Took him a while last year as well.

This team can still win games or at least be somewhat competitive most nights but it starts with Flip trusting McGee. As dumb as McGee is, he is still 100000000x better than Yi and Armstrong. Yi is grabbing a total of TWO rebounds and averaging 20 MPG. He is so ****ing soft, it's disgraceful that he's the first big man of the bench.

Edited November 8, 2010 by No Excuses

[RichmondRedskin88]

Did we ever try out Jon Scheyer? I remember him being pretty good for Duke. I thought he could be pretty good in the NBA. He had great 3 point ability.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Did we ever try out Jon Scheyer? I remember him being pretty good for Duke. I thought he could be pretty good in the NBA. He had great 3 point ability.

I think Scheyer was in camp with the Clippers and was one of the last cuts.

Edited November 9, 2010 by BRAVEONAWARPATH

[No Excuses]

Scheyer had originally decided to come to our camp I believe. Then he switched out at the last second.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Scheyer had originally decided to come to our camp I believe. Then he switched out at the last second.

Its hard for me to make an un-biased comment on him because I could not loathe Duke basketball more than I currently do but honestly a huge majority of Duke players are horrid in the NBA. I don't see Scheyer being any different.

Edited November 9, 2010 by DarrellsMyHero28

[RichmondRedskin88]

Its hard for me to make an un-biased comment on him because I could not loathe Duke basketball more than I currently do but honestly a huge majority of Duke players are horrid in the NFL. I don't see Scheyer being any different.

Thats fine if he sucks at football because I want buckets not TDs..

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Thats fine if he sucks at football because I want buckets not TDs..

:rotflmao:

I'm an idiot, good catch.

Edited November 9, 2010 by DarrellsMyHero28