Daily Telegraph:The stunning decline of Barack Obama: 10 key reasons why the Obama presidency is in meltdown

[Chopper Dave]

Which isn't even that large of a chunk of the federal budget. Now, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be reduced, but the 800 pound gorilla isn't the defense or state department, its social security, medicare, and medicaid.

but here's what is clear: the current track is unsustainable. We have to choose what is most important in terms of spending, and we will literally have to get rid of everything else if we want to survive as a country. And I'm not just being doom and gloom here, I'm dead serious, this is a huge problem and increasing spending and programs is the exact opposite of what we should be doing.

personally, I'd like to see federal spending reduced across the board, to include defense, and whole departments axed.

It's only unsustainable at this level of revenue. Increase the revenue and things start looking considerably more sustainable.

[twa]

It's only unsustainable at this level of revenue. Increase the revenue and things start looking considerably more sustainable.

And the plan to do so?

[Chopper Dave]

And the plan to do so?

You don't know me too well, do you?

[ardowling]

But the POTUS is the leader of the party no? It really speaks to his lack of leadership and experience that he can't even get his party to stay in line and pass his agenda, you don't seem to put much stock in experience however in my life leaders are made through experience not born, when it comes to being a leader the POTUS as of right now is a failure. The funny thing about experience over education is that most folks who would pay that six figure income your so quick to give away for universal everything want the person with experience.

[Chopper Dave]

But the POTUS is the leader of the party no? It really speaks to his lack of leadership and experience that he can't even get his party to stay in line and pass his agenda, you don't seem to put much stock in experience however in my life leaders are made through experience not born, when it comes to being a leader the POTUS as of right now is a failure. The funny thing about experience over education is that most folks who would pay that six figure income your so quick to give away for universal everything want the person with experience.

Dude, you're all over the place. First you're here and then you're there and then you're back here putting words in my mouth. What is your point? That he's not experienced enough to weather the partisan cluster**** he wandered into? That we shouldn't tax the rich? What exactly are you trying to express? I don't know that you even know, but I'm pretty sure the crux of it is that you don't like Obama and you disagree with me, right? Ok, great, join the club, and try to be a bit more coherent next time.

[twa]

You don't know me too well, do you?

And if the voters object?

Let me guess, you will try to isolate the ones you wish to pay for your scheme.

[Nickclone]

I love how conservatives continue to underestimate Obama and seem to think that poll numbers mean he won't get elected. However, what people don't seem to understand is that even though the democrats have low approval numbers, the conservatives have even lower approval numbers.

[PeterMP]

Big misconception actually, Herbert Hoover prompted a bunch of legislation for the federal government to start spending. His administration and Congress certainly did try and prevent a collapse (and caused it to get worse). We honestly would have been better off during the depression if the government had done nothing and the market had corrected itself. Hoover's tax increase and government spending was even criticized by FDR during the election as "reckless and extravagant." He also criticized Hoover for thinking "that we ought to center control of everything in Washington as rapidly as possible." Idk why FDR's economic policies are still praised to this day when many economists will begrudgingly admit that they probably didn't do ****. Some even contend they extended the depression.

for further reading:

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1932

Hoover instituted several programs related to the Great Depression.

However, things like the Smoot-Hawtley act were contradictory to what economists at the time and present believe are a good idea.

In addition, the Hoover tax increase you are talking about is a key difference between Keyesian economics (as practiced by FDR and essentially every President since in the face of a seriours recession, including Obama and Bush).

Hoover, essentially, refused to deficiet spend, hence the need for the tax increase.

That is the KEY to Keyesian economics.

And if you think "market corrections" are "simple" things that happen quickly and make things better, you should try reading about the great depression.

Hoover, FDR, and the other people alive at the time of the Great Depression did what they did because their "recent" history of nearly global economic collapses told them doing nothing wasn't a good idea.

[Chopper Dave]

I love how conservatives continue to underestimate Obama and seem to think that poll numbers mean he won't get elected. However, what people don't seem to understand is that even though the democrats have low approval numbers, the conservatives have even lower approval numbers.

That's actually a really good point.

[Chopper Dave]

And if the voters object?

Let me guess, you will try to isolate the ones you wish to pay for your scheme.

Well then the wheels come off and we're ****ed. Guess we better tax the rich.

[Redskins Diehard]

I think it speaks to Pelosi and Reid's leadership more.

As far as the other stuff, everyone promises more than they can deliver. Maybe Obama underestimated the scale. The Gitmo thing is ultimately small potatoes, but I get what you're saying. I'm not angry with him per se just because I realize that you don't sweep the floor while the building is on fire.

It speaks to the leadership in the Democratic party. Or more accurately the lack of any leadership at all.

Obama did underestimate the scale and those that talked about his lack of experience beforehand were often labeled as "haters". And like I said, I agree with his decision on those topics. But then again I didn't think the last guy was ripping up the Constitution with the same policy. I don't see how someone(not saying you particularly) who could have been so disgusted by the last guy is not at least a little disgusted by this guy.

[skinfan133]

It's only unsustainable at this level of revenue. Increase the revenue and things start looking considerably more sustainable.

wrong. I can't recall what the current estimate is, but these three programs are going to consume the federal budget by 2035. We would literally have to tax everyone in this country to beyond 50% of their income to even think about sustaining the budget at that point. That isn't considering any other spending, just social security, medicare and medicaid.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

What we need to do is slash spending and taxes. Simply raising or cutting one is not going to accomplish anything. This would never sell to the electorate, but even better would be to slash spending and raise taxes in the short term, then cut them to appropriate levels after the budget is control. Ultimately though, returning to a free market system (or actually creating one for the first time) would be best.

[Redskins Diehard]

I love how conservatives continue to underestimate Obama and seem to think that poll numbers mean he won't get elected. However, what people don't seem to understand is that even though the democrats have low approval numbers, the conservatives have even lower approval numbers.

I don't see how duel low approval numbers somehow indicates "underestimation". But when the incumbent party has low approval ratings then it opens the door for "change"....a slogan that everyone that was alive 2 years ago is probably pretty aware of.

[Chopper Dave]

It speaks to the leadership in the Democratic party. Or more accurately the lack of any leadership at all.

Obama did underestimate the scale and those that talked about his lack of experience beforehand were often labeled as "haters". And like I said, I agree with his decision on those topics. But then again I didn't think the last guy was ripping up the Constitution with the same policy. I don't see how someone(not saying you particularly) who could have been so disgusted by the last guy is not at least a little disgusted by this guy.

Disgusted by what exactly? The things that disgusted me about the Bush administration chronologically speaking can't possibly disgust me about Obama.

And you're right about the lack of leadership on the left. The Republican platform and tactics may be generally awful, but they know how to get things done. Unfortunately right now all they're trying to do is stop things from getting done. That's also a huge part of the problem.

[twa]

Well then the wheels come off and we're ****ed. Guess we better tax the rich.

Economics 101 ...the rich ain't stupid...you'll learn

[skinfan133]

And if you think "market corrections" are "simple" things that happen quickly and make things better, you should try reading about the great depression.

of course not, don't assume what others think.

market corrections are painful and often they take multiple years, BUT a market correction would have been less painful and faster than FDR's meddling with the economy that made the depression last almost a decade longer than it should have.

I've read plenty about the Great Depression and it blows my mind. My grandfather almost starved to death in California in the 30's, trust me his stories make the reality vivid enough. On a similar note, FDR was my grandfather's idol when he was young, now he thinks he's the worst president we've ever had because of his legacy. (fwiw)

[nonniey]

Is ChopperDave the new LandrysLegend? He who protests too loudly...

Ah you noticed. Yeah I have that sneaky suspicion that he thinks that article's assessement is accurate. Seems to have unhinged him a bit.

[Chopper Dave]

wrong. I can't recall what the current estimate is, but these three programs are going to consume the federal budget by 2035. We would literally have to tax everyone in this country to beyond 50% of their income to even think about sustaining the budget at that point. That isn't considering any other spending, just social security, medicare and medicaid.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

What we need to do is slash spending and taxes. Simply raising or cutting one is not going to accomplish anything. This would never sell to the electorate, but even better would be to slash spending and raise taxes in the short term, then cut them to appropriate levels after the budget is control. Ultimately though, returning to a free market system (or actually creating one for the first time) would be best.

50% across the board, maybe. But if you skew the tax towards the top 20% that holds the top 80% of wealth, or whatever the appalling distribution is, then it's slightly more manageable. Not totally manageable, but manageable enough to keep the thing floating long enough to fix.

We can't slash spending now, it would slow the economy to a grinding halt. And since we can't slash spending, we can't slash taxes either. The only solution is to bring in more revenue, at least in the short term. Long term these social institutions must be revamped to fit a sustainable model.

As far as the free market thing goes, it all sounds great until the market correcting itself transforms from a theory and a few graphs to a mass wave of economic turmoil.

[Dan T.]

Wow. This thing got even more train-wrecky than usual. Bravo guys.

[Chopper Dave]

Economics 101 ...the rich ain't stupid...you'll learn

I've probably taken more economics classes than most and I have no idea what you're talking about. Tax shelters? Republican voting records? Tax the rich and it goes a long way towards fixing most of our problems.

[elkabong82]

Economics 101 ...the rich ain't stupid...you'll learn

no, but the people who think helping the rich benefits others, namely themselves, well...

and also, for as much complaining that I have seen come from the right, what solutions have THEY offered up? All they've done, seemingly, is fear monger and try every attempt to delay anything put forth by the Dems.

the country is in trouble right now, but I've only seen one side coming up with potential solutions while the other side revels in jealousy and disdain and tries to widen the partisan gap and pretend that such actions are helping matters.

[Chopper Dave]

Ah you noticed. Yeah I have that sneaky suspicion that he thinks that article's assessement is accurate. Seems to have unhinged him a bit.

I don't think there's really an assessment at all, actually. It does offend me as a human being that someone is capable of writing something so obviously partisan and uninformed.

[Chopper Dave]

no, but the people who think helping the rich benefits others, namely themselves, well...

and also, for as much complaining that I have seen come from the right, what solutions have THEY offered up? All they've done, seemingly, is fear monger and try every attempt to delay anything put forth by the Dems.

the country is in trouble right now, but I've only seen one side coming up with potential solutions while the other side revels in jealousy and disdain and tries to widen the partisan gap and pretend that such actions are helping matters.

And we have a winner.

The Dems haven't really done a very good job, but it seems to me that no matter how relatively incompetent, they'd probably get alot more done if they didn't have to drag around a toddler screaming NONONONONONO over and over.

[ardowling]

Dude, you're all over the place. First you're here and then you're there and then you're back here putting words in my mouth. What is your point? That he's not experienced enough to weather the partisan cluster**** he wandered into? That we shouldn't tax the rich? What exactly are you trying to express? I don't know that you even know, but I'm pretty sure the crux of it is that you don't like Obama and you disagree with me, right? Ok, great, join the club, and try to be a bit more coherent next time.

First I'm not your dude, you tried to blame leadership in the D party (Pelosi and Ried) but not the POTUS for his failure to get his agenda through Congress he is the leader of said party and this is a failure of leadership on his part of which I attributed to his lack of experience.

Your the one who made the comment about earning a six figure income and you talked about you views about paying taxes for universal everything (everything is my word I'm just too lazy to list all the BS you would like to see universal) I tried to explain to you that your education will not and does not carry the same weight as a person with experience in the same area but you will find that out soon. So if I confused you about the POTUS's lack of experience in governing period and how it has effected his admin and your lack of experience in life ie...paying taxes, paying a mortgage, doing something besides talking **** and smoking dope I am very sorry man that first piss test is going to be a *****.

[twa]

no, but the people who think helping the rich benefits others, namely themselves, well...

Well since I try not to depend on benefiting from others,perhaps I'm a neutral observer.

Enjoy the ride boys.