2011 Comprehensive NFL Draft Database

[Laron Burgundy]

I don't think he turns into a great qb, but he HAS to be better than tarvaris jackson. I can see seattle going for him and taking a qb in the 1st next year just to settle their qb position.

[Going Commando]

Wes Bunting has been pretty critical of what he sees from Pryor on film and I actually agree with him. The Ohio State offense is loaded but it just didn't operate well under Pryor. Fits and starts. I think Bunting is right when he says a big problem of Pryor's is that he lacks the anticipatory skills necessary to operate a passing offense at a high level. I hate to say it but that sounds to me like he didn't put the work in to really master that system. I'd be very careful with Pryor if I were thinking about drafting him. To be fair, he was improving and coming off his best season statistically, but I think it's also fair to say he never lived up to his expectations as a passer.

His situation is not quite like Newton's, who operated the passing element of his offense at a better level of consistency during his season.

Aside from that though, I don't see a lot that separates Pryor and Newton as prospects. Then again, I never really liked Newton as a first round prospect either.

Pryor is coming out with his stock at an all time low, Newton came out when his was at an all time high. I don't think either will be great NFL QBs but if you liked Newton as a QB prospect then you will probably like Pryor too. I also see no reason why Newton gets so much burn as a legit QB prospect and the consensus seems to be that Pryor is going to change positions.

[Dro89]

i mean i dont really see a down side with taking him.. hes less of a risk than newton was because we still selected our number 1 pick (hell all of our picks) now we get the chance to buy a player with a good amount of talent to make things happen with the ball for a low price of maybe a 5th rounder.. i dont see why we WOULDN'T take this chance.. i doubt we do though.. but imo Pryor>Clemens.

[darrelgreenie]

His situation is not quite like Newton's, who operated the passing element of his offense at a better level of consistency during his season.

Aside from that though, I don't see a lot that separates Pryor and Newton as prospects. Then again, I never really liked Newton as a first round prospect either.....

Pryor is coming out with his stock at an all time low, Newton came out when his was at an all time high. I don't think either will be great NFL QBs but if you liked Newton as a QB prospect then you will probably like Pryor too. I also see no reason why Newton gets so much burn as a legit QB prospect and the consensus seems to be that Pryor is going to change positions.

You mean aside from the undefeated natioal championship season?

I'd say your first point is a major difference.

I see 2 major differences in physical skillset: throwing motion and arm strength.

---------- Post added August-21st-2011 at 02:11 PM ----------

i mean i dont really see a down side with taking him.. hes less of a risk than newton was because we still selected our number 1 pick (hell all of our picks) now we get the chance to buy a player with a good amount of talent to make things happen with the ball for a low price of maybe a 5th rounder.. i dont see why we WOULDN'T take this chance.. i doubt we do though.. but imo Pryor>Clemens.

Pryor has tons of upside but do you think Kyle would commit and have the patience to develop him?

(I like Clemenza I think he's showed well all things considered, far exceeded what I expected from him and at this point I he would be far more able to help the team then Pryor)

[Dro89]

You mean aside from the undefeated natioal championship season?

I'd say your first point is a major difference.

I see 2 major differences in physical skillset: throwing motion and arm strength.

---------- Post added August-21st-2011 at 02:11 PM ----------

Pryor has tons of upside but do you think Kyle would commit and have the patience to develop him?

(I like Clemenza I think he's showed well all things considered, far exceeded what I expected from him and at this point I he would be far more able to help the team then Pryor)

i think pryor could help this team in more ways than just being a QB.. Clemens may never touch the field.. pryor could.. just my opinion though.

[darrelgreenie]

Here's how he grades out for me:

QB-----Acc---Arm---Ath/Esc---Drp/Fot-----Exp----Play---Prd/Eff------Sz------Thw-

Gabbert...3.5....4...........3............3...........3........3.........3..........5......5...3.61

Locker....3.......4.5.........4............4..........3.5.......5.........3..........4......5....3.94

Mallett...4.........5..........1.............5..........3.5.......1.........4.........4......4....3.50

Newton...2.5......5..........5.............2...........2.......5..........5................4......3.94

Ponder....3........3..........3.............5....... ...4........3........3.......4.25.....3.5....3.52

Pryor.......2.......3.5.........5.............1.5........3........5.........4..........5.......2

[Going Commando]

You mean aside from the undefeated natioal championship season?

I'd say your first point is a major difference.

I see 2 major differences in physical skillset: throwing motion and arm strength.

That's a team achievement. Besides it's not like Pryor didn't win big at Ohio State too. He went 33-6 in games played at Ohio State and and 31-5 as the starter. He went to three straight BCS bowls and won the final two.

One thing to keep in mind about Pryor's efficiency level versus Newton's is that they came from extremely different systems. Newton's was a simple passing offense predicated by the shotgun spread option running game. Pryor is coming out of a pretty conservative, NFL style, play action from behind center type of offense so a difference in their numbers is to be expected.

Newton looks like he has a stronger arm than Pryor but I think Pryor has above average arm strength already. He'll also probably fill out more and get stronger than he already is.

Another physical difference is that Pryor is significantly faster and quicker and more agile than Newton. That 4.3 speed at 6'6 235 is freakish--like Mike Vick in Calvin Johnson's body. He looks like a big NBA player running around the field.

[darrelgreenie]

That's a team achievement. Besides it's not like Pryor didn't win big at Ohio State too. He went 33-6 in games played at Ohio State and and 31-5 as the starter. He went to three straight BCS bowls and won the final two.

Being part of an undefeated national championship season is no doubt a team achievment but imo going undefeated in anything is special and Cam's played a major role in many key victories.

Cam also won a national title at the JuCo level.

Anyway you were asking for difference, to me achieving the ultimate team goal twice is an achievement that separates the 2.

One thing to keep in mind about Pryor's efficiency level versus Newton's is that they came from extremely different systems. Newton's was a simple passing offense predicated by the shotgun spread option running game. Pryor is coming out of a pretty conservative, NFL style, play action from behind center type of offense so a difference in their numbers is to be expected.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the simplicity of Cam's offense especially given that it was simple enough to win a national championship with.

I used to have a link to the progression in Malzhan offense and its not as simple as everyone likes to think.

Pryor's offense was a mix of pro-style vs shotgun-zone read and Pryor didn't execute under center portion of the offense the way Mallett, Stanzi, Tolzein execute their pro-styles offenses.

Newton looks like he has a stronger arm than Pryor but I think Pryor has above average arm strength already. He'll also probably fill out more and get stronger than he already is.

By that same token won't Newton's?

Another physical difference is that Pryor is significantly faster and quicker and more agile than Newton. That 4.3 speed at 6'6 235 is freakish--like Mike Vick in Calvin Johnson's body. He looks like a big NBA player running around the field.

I agree that Pryor is faster and quicker but not enough to put them on different levels, Pryor's never had a rushing that matched Cam's last.

[Dro89]

just realized that Michael McAdoo from Carolina is in the Supplemental Draft.. you guys thought about him? 6'6 250..

[Conn]

I wouldn't be surprised to see someone spend a 4th-5th on Pryor just to see what they can do with him.

Yes, come next year, there might be a few or a dozen prospects you'll see sitting there in the 4th or 5th that you grade higher, or equal, to Pryor. But what Pryor brings, that you can't get from a guy (very rarely, anyways) in the mid-rounds, is his elite physical attributes.

This guy is an absolute freak. As steve says, he's a Calvin Johnson-level freakish athlete, but playing QB. Whether you decide to actually keep him at QB or not, that's a risk worth taking.

For a good team, its because you can afford to risk "wasting" the pick just to see if in an environment with a strong culture of winning, accountability, and responsibility rub off and help him reach his potential on an already good team. You can afford to let him sit.

For a bad team, there's an equally logical argument. If you're already in the cellar, what does it hurt to toss a mid-round pick, at a guy who has the elite measurables of a 1st rounder (even if he doesn't have a position right now--or maybe he does. Depends on the coaching staff). You aren't winning now anyways. So why not shoot for the stars with the high-upside pick that may pay off once you've built the rest of your team up over a couple years?

So really, there's an argument for any type of team to take the risk on Pryor. And that's all assuming he actually costs a mid-rounder, and not a late-rounder. Even if he never becomes anything, it will be very easy to look back and justify the pick.

I'm also with steve on Newton vs. Pryor. Aside from their college offenses and past transgressions, I'm not sure what really separates them as prospects in a tiered system. Meaning, I know that there are of course differences between them that separate them. Newton, right now, seems to have a stronger arm and be a more polished passer. Although that's a knock against him as well, in comparison to more "traditional" pocket-passer prospects.

It also doesn't hurt the perception of Newton that he can work the hell out of a camera and an interviewer. He looks, acts, and comes off like a franchise QB. That can be tough to ignore in comparison to Pryor, who has gotten lots of negative press, and didn't get the inevitable "1st overall pick" media-darling honeymoon period to turn it around like Newton has.

But when you're talking about raw prospects with elite measurables who could be painful busts or complete game-changers, they're really on the same level, even with the (I think small) differences in their throwing ability to-date. That's a completely different tier of QB, because the upside makes the risk worth it. In fact, I think Pryor might even be higher on that "list", even with a slightly weaker arm.

But getting specific about Pryor, I don't think there's anything about Pryor's throwing motion that raises a red flag. Its his footwork, and accuracy. And we won't really know how accurate he is until he's forced to respond to NFL coaching, and NOT just live off of his physical gifts.

Some tweets from Albert Breer at Pryor's proday:

One thing I will say: kid throws it 75-80 yards with ease. For what that's worth.

Pryor completed 27-of-39 throws to moving targets. I counted 4 drops. At the end, Rosenhaus asked if scouts wanted to see any other throws.

One interesting caveat to Pryor suspension -- while he can't practice or play, coaches will be allowed to do individual field work with him.

Another thing, too, is Pryor will travel and meet with a few teams between now and the supplemental draft. And talk to more over the phone.

[darrelgreenie]

But when you're talking about raw prospects with elite measurables who could be painful busts or complete game-changers, they're really on the same level, even with the (I think small) differences in their throwing ability to-date. That's a completely different tier of QB, because the upside makes the risk worth it. In fact, I think Pryor might even be higher on that "list", even with a slightly weaker arm.

But getting specific about Pryor, I don't think there's anything about Pryor's throwing motion that raises a red flag. Its his footwork, and accuracy. And we won't really know how accurate he is until he's forced to respond to NFL coaching, and NOT just live off of his physical gifts.

Some tweets from Albert Breer at Pryor's proday:

Imo the differences between Pryor and Newton's throwing motion/mechanics are night and day.

Cam also has elite arm strength that Pryor does not.

Those are 2 pretty big differences about them as passers.

---------- Post added August-21st-2011 at 04:38 PM ----------

I know you guys like comparisons but Newton's throwing ability reminds me of Joe Flacco.

Even if Newton couldn't run or be a player maker with his legs he still has that arm.

Imo Pryor's elite attribute is his playmaking alone his arm is arm is average at best (throwing motion, mechanics, arm strength) as opposed to prospects like Newton and Locker that had both elite arm talent and elite playmaking.

[TheGoodBits]

What are people's opinion of him as a WR prospect? 6'5" running a 4.3 is damn impressive.

[Conn]

What are people's opinion of him as a WR prospect? 6'5" running a 4.3 is damn impressive.

His straight-line 40 is very impressive, but his other agility-type drills weren't so much. Even Matt Jones thoroughly beat him in those categories if you look at the numbers. His broad jump was very very good, but his 3-cone drills, etc. were on par or worse than the slowest WR/TE times in most cases. Goes to show that he has crazy good straight-line speed, but not as much going on in the agility/quicks department. Which makes sense, because he's huge. Doesn't mean he couldn't eventually be like V-Jax. Hell, he might already be like Jon Baldwin: a guy who can currently basically run two routes, with straight speed and huge size and not much else.

---------- Post added August-21st-2011 at 05:05 PM ----------

Imo the differences between Pryor and Newton's throwing motion/mechanics are night and day.

Cam also has elite arm strength that Pryor does not.

Those are 2 pretty big differences about them as passers.

---------- Post added August-21st-2011 at 04:38 PM ----------

I know you guys like comparisons but Newton's throwing ability reminds me of Joe Flacco.

Even if Newton couldn't run or be a player maker with his legs he still has that arm.

Imo Pryor's elite attribute is his playmaking alone his arm is arm is average at best (throwing motion, mechanics, arm strength) as opposed to prospects like Newton and Locker that had both elite arm talent and elite playmaking.

I can see what you mean. When Pryor throws the ball, its not breathtaking. For instance, when I watch Flacco or Stafford wing it, its insta-football-boner. Its beautiful. Angels cry and a litter of kittens is born whenever a deep ball is launched by those guys, and its incredible to watch.

My only point was that the things that could make up for having a weaker arm (but still above-average) are things that you can't really glean from his college play. Because you can pretty much assume that he wasn't getting NFL-level QB coaching. His footwork and accuracy issues are wild, and may be connected. Locker had the same problem, and he DID have what some consider NFL-level QB coaching.

I mean, look at Grossman: we've already seen what knowing the system and being able to anticipate throws can do for someone who does not have elite arm strength. Because as much as everyone likes to laugh about "**** it I'm going deep", he does NOT have elite arm strength. And he is serviceable, even while being pretty immobile and inconsistent with his deep accuracy. Sounds like Pryor with a much lower ceiling, and minus the athletic freakishness.

Edit: Tacking this on the end for you dg. What do you see that you don't like about his throwing mechanics. Break it down for me, as you've got more experience with this. I think his actual motion is just fine. Pretty compact, over-the-top, quick. I like it. Plus, look at Beck's motion. It obviously doesn't bother the Shanahans. As long as Pryor can get it out quick, I don't think it matters. Especially since he's 6'6" and won't have the problem that Beck's lower, semi-side-arm throws from a shorter guy do. Its Pryor's footwork that bothers me. And that's coachable. You expect a guy like that to come into the league with horrible footwork, and because of that, inconsistent accuracy.

[wilco_holland]

i think pryor could help this team in more ways than just being a QB.. Clemens may never touch the field.. pryor could.. just my opinion though.

Why would we keep 3 QB´s? Shanahans have no probleme with going into the season with two QB's.

[Conn]

Why would we keep 3 QB´s? Shanahans have no probleme with going into the season with two QB's.

This is very true. Of course, if they believed in Pryor enough to draft him as a developmental guy, they would of course change that philosophy. This is all hypothetical, as we probably won't take him, and have no idea what will really happen tomorrow.

But the fact that Shanahan has no problem going into the season with only two QB's doesn't mean anything, and wouldn't be a reason NOT to draft him. Because the very act of drafting him would change it. And the new 3rd QB rules mean he'd be able to contribute elsewhere, if that was a route we wanted to go. Or whoever drafts him.

[jtyler42]

This is the kind of discussion I like! I love this thread lol...

IMO the difference between Newton and Pryor, are many. Newton has been a consistent/efficient passer at every level he's played on so far. Pryor in his three yrs at OSU was not. Whether you consider it a team accomplishment or not Newton has won THE championship for that level of football in two consecutive yrs. A lot can be said for understanding what it takes to win it all. Newton also IMO was a much better student of the game than Pryor, Pryor never took that side of it seriously while at OSU. Also Newton mechanically was/is more polished than Pryor.

As to Pryor specifically this guy is a prime piece of clay, that I believe in the right circumstances can be molded into an above-average NFL QB...I believe he fits our scheme perfectly, just as I believed that Cam Newton/Jake Locker did leading up to the draft, and Vince Young did during the off-season. With the way we stretch the D horizontally with the stretch runs, and the action passes off of that(boots, and waggles, etc), Pryor would be hell out on the edge w/a run/pass option. Bare in mind that I believe Pryor is a 2-3 yr project, but I believe he can still contribute during that time frame, in a role much like Kordell Stewart performed with the Steelers back in his "Slash" days. I think he is actually worth a 4th round tender, and guess what...We have at least two 4th round picks next yr, our pick, and the one we got from the Raiders in the JC trade.

[Conn]

Pryor as a moldable piece of clay is a great way to look at it: as long as the coaches decide he's willing to be molded. And that's the question, the main crux of the argument, and one that we can't know the answer to.

So on to stuff we can talk about. Posted this somewhere else:

Accuracy can be hugely affected by poor footwork. And you expect a raw prospect like Pryor to have poor footwork: a guy who has lived off of his athleticism, and not his technique, is bound to have wild footwork and inconsistent mechanics. Hell, its impressive that his throwing motion is as clean as it is.

I mean, look at Locker: taken 8th overall, despite huge issues with his accuracy: mainly, his consistency. And most people will tell you that they've read that its all about his footwork. And guess what? Locker DID have NFL-caliber QB coaching to attempt to correct it. Pryor never has, and has never needed to correct it until now. His accuracy issues might not be such a big deal once he tightens up his mechanics and builds his footwork from the ground up as a pro. Its going to take a couple years, but he's the kind of high-upside, raw prospect that you expect to take that long anyways.

I'm not sure what, besides the public perception and stigma surrounding Pryor, makes him a worse developmental prospect than at least Colin Kaepernick. And Newton as well, but he's already in the discussion.

[Going Commando]

Why would we keep 3 QB´s? Shanahans have no probleme with going into the season with two QB's.

Have they done that recently though? A lot of times QB guys like to keep 3 or 4 on the roster so they have options plus at least one young guy to develop.

[darrelgreenie]

I can see what you mean. When Pryor throws the ball, its not breathtaking. For instance, when I watch Flacco or Stafford wing it, its insta-football-boner. Its beautiful. Angels cry and a litter of kittens is born whenever a deep ball is launched by those guys, and its incredible to watch

My only point was that the things that could make up for having a weaker arm (but still above-average) are things that you can't really glean from his college play..

It seems as if you think I don't think Pryor is good QB prospect, I do.

I was specifically answering the question what makes Pryor and Newton different.

I don't think he needs to 'make up' for not having Cam/Locker level arm talent my point is that although all 3 are playmakers Cam and Locker to my mind are better prospects because they're elite in both areas (playmaking and arm talent).

I think we can glean a lot about Pryor from his college play.

Because you can pretty much assume that he wasn't getting NFL-level QB coaching. His footwork and accuracy issues are wild, and may be connected. Locker had the same problem, and he DID have what some consider NFL-level QB coaching.

I completely disagree about Locker's and Pryor having the same issues when it comes to footwork and accuracy issues but that's already well established.

Yes, Locker had NFL level coaching for 2 season but Locker's rhythm footwork are much better then Pryor's.

I don't think you can right off Pryor's footwork to poor coaching he played in a pro-style offense for 3 season certainly Ohio State teaches rhythm dropback passing. (You don't need NFL coaching to teach proper 3-5-7 step drop footwork)

Pretty compact, over-the-top, quick. I like it. Plus, look at Beck's motion. It obviously doesn't bother the Shanahans. As long as Pryor can get it out quick, I don't think it matters. Especially since he's 6'6" and won't have the problem that Beck's lower, semi-side-arm throws from a shorter guy do. Its Pryor's footwork that bothers me. And that's coachable. You expect a guy like that to come into the league with horrible footwork, and because of that, inconsistent accuracy.

I like Beck's motion for a lot of reasons but on to Pryor.

Here's my take on Pryor's motion/mechanics:

To my eye there's a slight pause or hesitation from when decides to throw and when the ball comes out; its not fluid.

There's a lot of arm in his throws and not enough shoulder rotation.

His entire motion seems a bit disconnected like a series of steps rather then one fluid....bang

Sure there are times when he does it right and it looks better, even good but that speaks to another problem his motion/mechanics are randomly inconsistent.

He also appear to be off balance falling into or out of throws where his entire process looks uncomfortable.

I'll have to search I did an mini-breakdown of his motion earlier in the season somewhere.

---------- Post added August-21st-2011 at 07:28 PM ----------

I'm not sure what, besides the public perception and stigma surrounding Pryor, makes him a worse developmental prospect than at least Colin Kaepernick. And Newton as well, but he's already in the discussion.

I think Pryor is more similar in skillset to Kaep then he is to Cam/Locker.

All 4 are playmakers but Pryor/Kaep have mechanical flaws, but Kaep still edges Pryor out in arm strength, Kaep has a hose.

[Dukes and Skins]

just realized that Michael McAdoo from Carolina is in the Supplemental Draft.. you guys thought about him? 6'6 250..

Personally I dont even think he's drafted Dro. The only guys I see getting drafted are Caleb King and Terrelle Pryor

[Conn]

Read somewhere else that there's a rumor going around that Carl Nicks is on the trading block. Even though our OL is looking better and better, would we be interested? Doesn't seem like a position that you should trade for, and its hard to quantify the value of an OG in draft picks.

[Going Commando]

Read somewhere else that there's a rumor going around that Carl Nicks is on the trading block. Even though our OL is looking better and better, would we be interested? Doesn't seem like a position that you should trade for, and its hard to quantify the value of an OG in draft picks.

Was he franchised? This is curious to me. Did you see anything about what they're looking for in return?

[GWinSkins83]

Was he franchised? This is curious to me. Did you see anything about what they're looking for in return?

I sure hope that if they try n get him to only give up a 4th. How old is he and does he fit?

[Going Commando]

I sure hope that if they try n get him to only give up a 4th. How old is he and does he fit?

He's young, probably only 25 or 26. He's also been fantastic the past two seasons in New Orleans, one of the three best guards in the league. He's a former college OT so he's got the athletic background of a running OL. He'd fit in at guard. But for a player that good, they'll probably want more than a 4th.

I wouldn't trade more than a fourth for a guard though. Not for this scheme. But you have to admit, if they said "here, we'll trade him for a 2012 third," and you knew you were getting a Probowl caliber player, that'd be a very tempting offer.

[GWinSkins83]

He's young, probably only 25 or 26. He's also been fantastic the past two seasons in New Orleans, one of the three best guards in the league. He's a former college OT so he's got the athletic background of a running OL. He'd fit in at guard. But for a player that good, they'll probably want more than a 4th.

I wouldn't trade more than a fourth for a guard though. Not for this scheme. But you have to admit, if they said "here, we'll trade him for a 2012 third," and you knew you were getting a Probowl caliber player, that'd be a very tempting offer.

You what i'll give up that a 25 year old pro bowler. That would instantly make our line the top of the NFC East. Thats good to say if that was to happen.