SB Nation DC: On Randle El and the Redskins' Meddling Owner

[Mooka]

Duh.

Zorn wasn't allowed to hire his own coaching staff and who knows what say he had on roster moves. Vinny probably didn't give him any. He wasn't an interim coach taking over for half a season.

[TheLongshot]

Now, to the topic at hand - I'm not a fan of Randle El. Never have been. Probably never will be. It happens. Anyone who has listened to me on Skinscast or read my work here on ES knows I thought he was a terrible signing and should have been let go at least a year or two earlier. So don't think I'm crushing him simply for being a former Redskin.

Well, he wouldn't have been a terrible signing if he actually did what he was expected to do when we signed him. He should have been a slot receiver his whole time here, but ended up getting pressed into the #2 role when Lloyd decided he didn't want to play football anymore and there was no one else to take the spot. It is the reason why he stuck around so long.

Honestly, I never cared for Jason Taylor either. But I blamed the Redskins for acquiring him and then asking him to play like Phillip Daniels rather than adapting their scheme to utilize the skills that made him a regular at the Pro Bowl. And when Taylor left and had a thing or two to say about the 'Skins, I agreed with him 100 percent (even if I didn't care for him).

Actually, I think most of that was a bunch of bull, considering that the role we had created for him for his second year wasn't all that much different from his switch to the 3-4 he made in Miami. I think he really wanted to go back to Miami and is only with the Jets because the Dolphins didn't make him an offer to stay.

As for what ARE said, I don't think it was Zorn that Snyder mistrust as much as Vinny didn't trust him. Also, Vinny's actions last year screamed that he didn't feel secure about his own position.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I would have been interested in Cooley's answers to the following questions:

= Greg Blache's defense didn't become aggressive until he "threw himself under the bus" after the loss to the Lions. How much impact do you think our passive defense had on the first half of the season?

Cooley: "Dude...we scored 13 points a game during that time span. The defense had zero impact on our win/loss results."

= How much impact did the injuries to Thomas and Samuels have on the offense?

Cooley: "It was noticeable. Which is why we look towards the coach to come up with different ways of successfully offsetting those types of injuries and coming up with gameplans and calling plays that help minimize those weaknesses. And if we have a coach who seems inept in doing those types of things, we start losing faith in him and in where we're going."

= The offense did not improve for five quarters after Zorn was relieved of his play calling duties. However, the running game got an immediate shot in the arm when Ladell Betts replaced Clinton Portis. Was Clinton in playing shape last season? And, if not, how much impact do you think that had on the offense?

Cooley: "Dude...not sure why you mentioned the first 5 quarters thing lol. But okay. As for Portis, he averaged more yards per carry than the other running backs, so even if he wasn't at 100% commitment to doing his best it was still better than what the other backup RBs brought to the field. And I personally tend to believe that it was the new playcaller that got a few better games from our running game far more than it was the backup RBs replacing Portis."

= It has been reported that Clinton Portis and Albert Haynesworth chatted regularly with Dan Snyder. If true, how do you think this affected the attitudes of players toward Jim Zorn's authority?

Cooley: "Well, I look at it like this: if Zorn was the type of coach he needs to be in order to truly succeed in the NFL, Portis and Haynesworth would never have gone over his head, because the players would have respected him far more than they did and Snyder would have had a much better understanding of what Zorn expected in their working relationship together. Hey, I liked the dude myself, we all did. But all I can tell you is what the mood was among the team and players and in the lockerroom...and trust me, he lost us."

[themurf]

Duh.

Zorn wasn't allowed to hire his own coaching staff and who knows what say he had on roster moves.

If you're going to go that route, then wouldn't it be more accurate to say Zorn was the issue? The front office hired him to be the offensive coordinator before they had a head coach in place and that wasn't very appealing to folks who might have been otherwise interested in the vacancy. Two weeks later, the team opted to just promote Zorn and give him the job and the rest is (depressing) history.

Well, he wouldn't have been a terrible signing if he actually did what he was expected to do when we signed him. He should have been a slot receiver his whole time here, but ended up getting pressed into the #2 role when Lloyd decided he didn't want to play football anymore and there was no one else to take the spot. It is the reason why he stuck around so long.

I completely agree that part of the blame should go to any of the coaches who thought it was a good idea to use Randle El as a number-two receiver, and not in the slot where he's actually serviceable. I'd also like a word with the coaches who kept trotting him out there on special teams as he led the league for two years in fair catches, but whatever. Instead, I just drink.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Also, Vinny's actions last year screamed that he didn't feel secure about his own position.

That's a HUGE one in my eyes :yes:...

[TheLongshot]

In the past, ARE built a reputation as a solid citizen. He's being slammed now because he's saying something that most Skins fans don't want to hear. Trashing Jim Zorn has been playing well with Redskins faithful and ARE says "...he (Zorn) had great potential." My personal opinion is that the truth about Jim Zorn lies somewhere between "great potential" and "he was in over his head."

What I get the impression is a guy who really wanted to be an OC and he felt that he could handle both jobs when handed the head coach position. Personally, I think the two require two different skillsets to be successful. It is hard to say if he would have been more successful if he was just focused on the offense.

Duh.

Zorn wasn't allowed to hire his own coaching staff and who knows what say he had on roster moves. Vinny probably didn't give him any. He wasn't an interim coach taking over for half a season.

Let's dispense with this BS. When he was fired, only two of his offensive coaches were holdovers from Gibbs. One of which was Buges, who even Shanahan wanted to keep around. Everyone else on the offensive side were Zorn's guys, especially those who make the game plans.

I do blame Zorn for not bringing in experienced eyes for the offense and is really what he should have done during the 2009 offseason.

[ntotoro]

Duh.

Zorn wasn't allowed to hire his own coaching staff and who knows what say he had on roster moves. Vinny probably didn't give him any. He wasn't an interim coach taking over for half a season.

The staff was in-place before he got here. Remember, he was HC as an 11th hour "promotion" of sorts.

This was Vinny trying to put his stamp on everything, despite all the talk of consistency.

[brianm23]

Now, to the topic at hand - I'm not a fan of Randle El. Never have been. Probably never will be. It happens. Anyone who has listened to me on Skinscast or read my work here on ES knows I thought he was a terrible signing and should have been let go at least a year or two earlier. So don't think I'm crushing him simply for being a former Redskin.

That's another thing we agree on. I hated the ARE signing from the get-go as well as these moves and his play on the field backed up my disliking him on our team. Hell, I never thought his play in Pittsburgh warranted that type of contract. He was a gimmick player who was decent at special teams, and he even failed at that here.

That said, I wouldn't dictate my article about his comments with yet more thrashing of his poor play. There again, who do you blame? ARE or Snyder? ARE played up to his ability that he showed in Pittsburgh, it was Snyder who over paid him and made guys like yourself (and other fans) expect more from him than what he was capable of being. He gave us exactly what I knew he would. Below average play. High salaries always up the ante and expectations on things, and it usually ends up in huge failure because they never live up to those types of expectations. (see Haynesworth for more details)

That said, you still make it like ARE has some sort of vendetta against the Skins. He simply responded to questions he was asked. He didn't call a conference to lash out at the Skins or to air his dirty laundry. I don't think he was bitter one bit. Why would he be? He got paid a **** ton more money here than what anybody else was going to give him. No, I believe (like many others) that he simply said what he couldn't here without being chastised by the media about being a team cancer. You guys can't have it both ways.

Also, you complain that he didn't talk to the media here, but yet complain when he talks to the media elsewhere. Maybe you have a agenda against him? It sounds that way with all the petty pot shots you take at him. How about pointing the gun where it really should be. At the ownership for signing this guy. The same one who he is telling you held Zorn back. THAT is the real story, not a "bitter" former Redskins that underachieved based on his pay. In fact, did ARE say anything different than what Steve Largent said? Nope. The same theme was that ownership hindered Jim Zorn. I guess Largent is bitter too since he didn't get to play with the Skins.

Why give Jason Taylor a free pass and not ARE? Jason complained he wasn't used as he should. ARE didn't even complain about how he was used, he simply stated that he saw management hold back Zorn. They both have valid points and both comments should be a reflection of what the true problem was. At least ARE didn't cost us a 2nd round pick AND a 8 mil/year salary.

[Oldfan]

Cooley: "Dude...we scored 13 points a game during that time span. The defense had zero impact on our win/loss results."

So, Chris. You don't think that sitting on the bench while the other team holds the ball for a dozen 10-12 play drvies in the first five games was costly? And, you don't think the lack of turnovers and short-field opportunities hurt the offenses ability to put points up?

Cooley: "It was noticeable. Which is why we look towards the coach to come up with different ways of successfully offsetting those types of injuries and coming up with gameplans and calling plays that help minimize those weaknesses. And if we have a coach who seems inept in doing those types of things, we start losing faith in him and in where we're going."

Seems to me you are a little harsh there , Chris. Your coach DID make adjustments. You should know that. What would you have done that Zorn didn't do after losing his two best O-linemen?

Cooley: "Dude...not sure why you mentioned the first 5 quarters thing.

I mentioned it because the OP argues that relieving Zorn of his playcalling duties jump-started the offense.

But okay. As for Portis, he averaged more yards per carry than the other running backs...

Chris, Baby, have you ever taken a course in statistics? Remember Portis's 78 yard run which should have been longer but he ran out of gas? One run like that skews the average. Take that one out and the average is 3.4 which is not going to move the chains on a consistent basis. Consistency is huge when we're talking averages in football.

Cooley: "Well, I look at it like this: if Zorn was the type of coach he needs to be in order to truly succeed in the NFL, Portis and Haynesworth would never have gone over his head...

You finally said something I can agree with. I think Zorn can be fairly criticized for lacking leadership. After, Portis ran off at the mouth on the John Thompson show, I would have benched him. That would have put Dan Snyder in a bind. He couldn't back the player without showing his ass in public. That would have set the tone for my authority with the team.

PS: Chris, I hate to say this, but you're one dumbass football player.

[PleaseGoForTheWin]

Thanks for sharing the article. It all sounds about right.

[themurf]

That's another thing we agree on. I hated the ARE signing from the get-go as well as these moves and his play on the field backed up my disliking him on our team. Hell, I never thought his play in Pittsburgh warranted that type of contract. He was a gimmick player who was decent at special teams, and he even failed at that here.

That said, I wouldn't dictate my article about his comments with yet more thrashing of his poor play. There again, who do you blame? ARE or Snyder? ARE played up to his ability that he showed in Pittsburgh, it was Snyder who over paid him and made guys like yourself (and other fans) expect more from him than what he was capable of being. He gave us exactly what I knew he would. Below average play. High salaries always up the ante and expectations on things, and it usually ends up in huge failure because they never live up to those types of expectations. (see Haynesworth for more details)

That said, you still make it like ARE has some sort of vendetta against the Skins. He simply responded to questions he was asked. He didn't call a conference to lash out at the Skins or to air his dirty laundry. I don't think he was bitter one bit. Why would he be? He got paid a **** ton more money here than what anybody else was going to give him. No, I believe (like many others) that he simply said what he couldn't here without being chastised for the media about being a team cancer. You guys can't have it both ways.

Also, you complain that he didn't talk to the media here, but yet complain when he talks to the media elsewhere. Maybe you have a agenda against him? It sounds that way with all the petty pot shots you take at him. How about pointing the gun where it really should be. At the ownership for signing this guy. The same one who he is telling you held Zorn back. THAT is the real story, not a "bitter" former Redskins that underachieved based on his pay. In fact, did ARE say anything different than what Steve Largent said? Nope. The same theme was that ownership hindered Jim Zorn. I guess Largent is bitter too since he didn't get to play with the Skins.

Why give Jason Taylor a free pass and not ARE? Jason complained he wasn't used as he should. ARE didn't even complain about how he was used, he simply stated that he saw management hold back Zorn. They both have valid points and both comments should be a reflection of what the true problem was. At least ARE didn't cost us a 2nd round pick AND a 8 mil/year salary.

Blaming The Danny is played out. If someone gets cut off on the way to work by a car with a Redskins sticker, there are people who find a way to blame Snyder. Come up with new material.

I'm sorry you read 1,300 words this morning when I could have given you three sentences instead:

Zorn wasn't good enough. Neither was Randle El. If they were better at their respective jobs, then they'd still be here.

[Skinsinparadise]

In the past, ARE built a reputation as a solid citizen. He's being slammed now because he's saying something that most Skins fans don't want to hear.

I agree just because ARE stunk as a punt returner, or didn't talk to the media much -- doesn't invalidate his opinion. For that matter how can anybody's opinion be wrong? It's just an opinion. Not saying Murf is saying it that way but some other posters more so on another thread on the same subject seem to be going there some.

Trashing Jim Zorn has been playing well with Redskins faithful and ARE says "...he (Zorn) had great potential."

I am not personally on board with the ARE Jim Zorn having great potential idea. But again that's just my opinion, could be wrong. I have trashed Zorn before it even began in vogue last season but still the dude not only handled himself with class during the season but IMO with total class after he was let go. And if ARE wants to give him a nod, cool with me, I take no joy from Redskins players trashing Zorn. I think its the nice thing to do to say something nice about a nice coach who was let go. Randle El at least from what i read is a nice guy, so his comments to me are in character.

How much impact did the injuries to Thomas and Samuels have on the offense?

I'd extend that to having weak backups, Heyer made me squirm. the O line was clearly a wreck. Mel Kiper called it the worst O line in the NFL before the draft.

The offense did not improve for five quarters after Zorn was relieved of his play calling duties. However, the running game got an immediate shot in the arm when Ladell Betts replaced Clinton Portis. Was Clinton in playing shape last season? And, if not, how much impact do you think that had on the offense?

Portis was a train wreck IMO last season, I read somewhere if you take out his one big run in one game, he had a like 3.4 yard per carry average or something like that. You put together the worst O line in the league, with a poor running game, and a so so QB -- its not exactly a recipe for success.

again this isn't me defending Zorn, I didn't think he was a good HC. But if i were in HIS shoes, I would think geez give me something to work with, I didn't really have much of a chance. And the fact that he didn't complain about it after his firing, I don't know if it were me I could hold my tongue, so I respect his restraint.

It has been reported that Clinton Portis and Albert Haynesworth chatted regularly with Dan Snyder. If true, how do you think this affected the attitudes of players toward Jim Zorn's authority?

Bruce Allen and Shanny clearly saw this as a problem, if players can go over the head of the HC what kind of authority does the HC have? Stopping this practice, is one of the first things at least according to the papers they did to improve the culture of the team.

[Oldfan]

Bruce Allen and Shanny clearly saw this as a problem, if players can go over the head of the HC what kind of authority does the HC have? Stopping this practice, is one of the first things at least according to the papers they did to improve the culture of the team.

I'm not a Shanahan fan because I think he has the typical win-now approach that is common among football coaches, but he has the right idea about leadership. That factor stands out from his Denver resume.

[brianm23]

Blaming The Danny is played out. If someone gets cut off on the way to work by a car with a Redskins sticker, there are people who find a way to blame Snyder. Come up with new material.

I'm sorry you read 1,300 words this morning when I could have given you three sentences instead:

Zorn wasn't good enough. Neither was Randle El. If they were better at their respective jobs, then they'd still be here.

I agree blaming the Danny is played out, but hasn't that been the same issue since he bought this team? Apparently the message never got through to him. Maybe this regime will be different. I'm hoping as much anyway. On the same token, slamming former players because they speak about things they couldn't have said here is played out too. I could equally tell you to "get new material". :pfft:

I will say this about Zorn. I believe he could have been a capable OC with a decent QB to run his system, but he was definitely in over his head as a HC at this particular time. To take a job as a head coach without hiring your own people is about as stupid as it gets. Not to mention, going from QB coach to head coach without any transition in between is equally as stupid. Just because a job is offered to you, doesn't mean it should be taken. He took on too many responsibilities at once, and lost control in the process. He, without a doubt, set himself up for this huge failure and is ultimately the blame.

As far as Randel El, he never was good to begin with. (even in Pittsburgh) The fact most of you thought he'd would be is the funny part. Salary doesn't dictate a players capability.

I think we are back to agreeing Murf.

[themurf]

As far as Randel El, he never was good to begin with. (even in Pittsburgh) The fact most of you thought he'd would be is the funny part. Salary doesn't dictate a players capability.

I think we are back to agreeing Murf.

Last year, when his franchise was closing in on rock bottom with ugly losses on the field and embarrassing stories about suing grandmas off of it, The Danny realized he was losing his fanbase. Sure, the Redskins will always have fans. But it was clear to anyone paying attention that folks were finally fed up with it all.

Snyder did what he had to (and what many thought he could never do) - he got rid of The Vinny and handed the keys over to Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan. Since then, he's gotten out of their way and let the organization be run by guys with proven track records. When old timers like Art Monk, Gary Clark and everyone else were welcomed back into the fold, it showed me that things are finally changing at Redskins Park.

That's why I'm tired of this same old song and dance. The Danny finally did take the hint and got out of his own way. Now, good things can finally happen.

PS - I never thought Randle El was any good.

[Arsenic]

Thank you, Murf. It makes me mad, hearing ARE talk trash. IMO, having paid ARE millions for very little ouput, Snyder deserves atleast a small amount of respect or loyalty from the dude. Airing dirty laundry shows disrespect, imo, to the fans as well.

So, once again, thanks. You said exactly what we would all like to say, and with a pretty loud microphone

Hail!

[Skinsinparadise]

I'm not a Shanahan fan because I think he has the typical win-now approach that is common among football coaches, but he has the right idea about leadership. That factor stands out from his Denver resume.

Shanny wrote sort of a self help book about leadership, he seems to put some thought into it, we will see how it translates.

I think I understand your thought about coaches that had their day. Something like coaches that are good and new to the scene can find an edge that they can take advantage of until the league catches up. Correct me if I am wrong but I think you seem to say the league caught up with Shanny -- you don't discount that he's smart but without the edge he won't make this team elite.

My rebuttal is the league didn't catch up to his offenses. But the defense became a train wreck. his offenses remained prolific to the end. there are three things that you might end up liking about Shanny:

1. He clearly thinks a lot of Bill Belichick. He was one of the coaches he studied in his year off, and went to part of their training camp. I doubt he did it because he plans to stubbornly cling to doing things exactly like he's done things in the past.

2. He is almost a parrot of you on defense these days. Studying football while he was gone he clearly fell in love with the 3 4. and he and Haslett say the stuff that you argued with other posters about often -- defensive rankings mean squat, its all about being aggressive and getting turnovers. they seem almost zealots on that point. the players seem to back that up based on their camps thus far.

3. If you read Belichick's stuff, he says that he continues to try to evolve and pick up new stuff. Shanny has more or less said the same thing. Yeah clearly he isn't going to abandon going for broke with big plays as part of his offense. At the same time, he has said that his son will have reign over the offense and he called more of a pure WCO.

[Oldfan]

That's why I'm tired of this same old song and dance. The Danny finally did take the hint and got out of his own way. Now, good things can finally happen.

Hiring a big name coach with a win-now goal and stepping aside isn't new to Dan. He did it in 2004.

[CjSuAvE22]

This is funny coming from the man who got started over players who in my opinion had more potential to make a big play then he did...of course if im Randel El im gonna show support for the coach whom decided to start me although I was way more undersized and didnt have as much speed as some of the younger wide receivers on the team...now that you are five hours away back to your original team its easy for you to come up with crap to say El...but we here in DC are quite happy that you arent here you can run your mouth all you want but we have moved on clearly you sir have not.

Thats all.

:dallasuck

[Oldfan]

SIP: Correct me if I am wrong but I think you seem to say the league caught up with Shanny -- you don't discount that he's smart but without the edge he won't make this team elite.

I think football schemes have a shelf-life of varying lengths. The decay is slow at first, then it accelerates with time. Zone-blocking is not not nearly as effective as it was in 1997; and Mike's penchant for movement passes (roll-outs and the like) is not going to catch defenses by surprise anymore.

As for the defense, in 2004, the 3-4 defense would have been an innovation. In 2010, it isn't. My point is that Mike hasn't shown anything truly innovative in a very long time.

If you read Belichick's stuff, he says that he continues to try to evolve and pick up new stuff. Shanny has more or less said the same thing.

The Patriots were early adopters of the 3-4, the first to use the hybrid, and went heavily into the shotgun after Peyton and Tom Moore used it to good advantage. We haven't seen Mike's schemes evolve like that.

...he and Haslett say the stuff that you argued with other posters about often -- defensive rankings mean squat, its all about being aggressive and getting turnovers. they seem almost zealots on that point. the players seem to back that up based on their camps thus far.

I don't get excited about what coaches say. I'll get jacked up when I see a more aggressive defense than we've seen in the past.

[skinnyfan57]

Blaming The Danny is played out.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it isn't true. Danny IS the person most responsible (by a landslide) for this organization's failures the past decade.

[SkinsHokieFan]

This is how I see it

Dan Snyder's record

4 last place finishes, 3 playoff appearances, 4 seasons of 10 losses or more, no conferece title game apperances, 2 playoff wins, 1 division title.

His record sucks and he and Vinny were the 2 constants since 1999

ARE: average 2.3 yards per punt return

ARE is gone and honestly is probably not going to be on a post lockout roster.

Dan Snyder has a very long way to go in getting any iota of credit in my eyes. Until this team starts to win, win consistantly, and win big again, his awful record this last decade speaks for itself

[atlSkinfan]

That's a HUGE one in my eyes :yes:...

:yikes: = Vinny

[brianm23]

Thank you, Murf. It makes me mad, hearing ARE talk trash. IMO, having paid ARE millions for very little ouput, Snyder deserves atleast a small amount of respect or loyalty from the dude. Airing dirty laundry shows disrespect, imo, to the fans as well.

So, once again, thanks. You said exactly what we would all like to say, and with a pretty loud microphone

Hail!

Speak for yourself when you say "we would", and where do you see ARE talking trash? He's not, so stop making up stuff. He's answering questions that reporters are asking him. He's telling them how he felt about the situation and what he viewed while here. If you can't respect that, then you have issues. It's funny you want him to show you respect, you aren't giving any back. Funny how that works.

ARE did his time and he played hard. The problem is you fans that expect more from a person than what their talent can give. That's right, you saw a few flashes from ARE on Pittsburgh and thought it would be a dream to have him on your WR core. You probably thought he was going to come in here and own that #2 slot. The reality of it was, Dan saw those same episodes of ESPN that you and I did, and thought he'd throw a ton of cash at him to get him on the squad. Well, it work. What didn't work is that cash didn't make ARE a better player. In the end, the Danny paid ARE #2 WR type of cash to a person with #4 WR skills, but you all expected him to preform like something he wasn't.

I think the man has earned his right to speak, even if he didn't earn the money he was given. Not his fault though.

[Mooka]

If you're going to go that route, then wouldn't it be more accurate to say Zorn was the issue? The front office hired him to be the offensive coordinator before they had a head coach in place and that wasn't very appealing to folks who might have been otherwise interested in the vacancy. Two weeks later, the team opted to just promote Zorn and give him the job and the rest is (depressing) history.

I never said any one person was the issue. But it was clear that they never intended to let Zorn build his own team.

He had to develop Campbell and win with Gibbs' team.

*That would be the duh. The way the coaching search went down, hiring coordinators before the HC made it almost impossible for any head coach to have any long term success. Zorn didn't even have short term success because he was unable to take Gibbs' team to the playoffs.

Let's dispense with this BS. When he was fired, only two of his offensive coaches were holdovers from Gibbs. One of which was Buges, who even Shanahan wanted to keep around. Everyone else on the offensive side were Zorn's guys, especially those who make the game plans.

And was Zorn the head coach or the offensive coordinator?