Can you run the counter trey against a defense lined up in 3-4?

[mossomo]

Will a 3-4 D bite on it, will it be successful against 3-4 Ds? With the line backers attacking in the 3-4, does it counter the trey? I always seen it lined up against 4-3. But I'm also not a player or coach. Considering we're switching to the 3-4 and the Hogs used to run the counter trey, and someone told me the play was NFL dead, and it's July with Skins/nfl news so slow; we have coaches on the board and opinions, lets hear them!

[SkinsTribeVA]

Interesting question.

I got a related one: can someone explain the difference between the counter trey and other counter runs (counters that are still run more today)? I have a faint idea, but I'd like to hear more from someone who knows the game...

I can't wait to see this OL run-blocking. They're huge and athletic, I'm pumped...

[Englands Team]

Not sure the counter trey will fit with this zone blocking scheme.

I suppose anything will work if your team is better than the opposition. Key to any system is better players than the other side.

[Buck812]

The Giants were running the 3/4 when we were utilzing the counter trey back in the 80s though we had mixed results against them. The best scheme I ever saw to counter the counter trey was by the St Louis Cardinals who basically stunted the right DE into the RB and they were doing it from the 4/3.

[MartinC]

The short answer is yes.

For a longer answer we probably need to explain exactly what counter trey is. As its name suggests its a counter play where the running back take a step to the back side (away from the actual direction the play will go) before then reversing direction and following the blocking as below.

The centre, play side guard and tackle block down (away from the play direction) while the offside guard and tackle pull to lead the play. The pulling guard kicks out and the tackle leads the running back through the hole between the play side tackle and the off side guard who he is following.

The blocking works against either a 3 or 4 man front but its fair to say it is more difficult to to execute against a 3-4 as the playside tackle will need to be athletic enough to get to the playside inside linebacker as opposed to blocking down onto a DT against a 4-3 which is arguably easier to execute.

The reason the counter trey has gone out of fashion (although it is still run) is not to do with defensive fronts. The weakeness of the play was always a backside defender (normally the DE or OLB) chasing the play down from behind. As defenders in the NFL have become faster and faster it becomes even more difficult to stop the running back getting caught from behind by one of the defenders left clean by the tackle and guard who have pulled to lead the play.

[MustangSteve]

The short answer is yes.

The blocking works against either a 3 or 4 man front but its fair to say it is more difficult to to execute against a 3-4 as the playside tackle will need to be athletic enough to get to the playside inside linebacker as opposed to blocking down onto a DT against a 4-3 which is arguably easier to execute.

Well said MartinC, it can be run against a 3-4 defense, but the speed of the LB's make it more difficult.

[National Defense]

remember-denver ran a 3-4, and had a wee bit of trouble stopping the counter trey in the superbowl.

[scruffylookin]

The Hogs chewed up 3-4s except for the Giants who had the front three that physically matched up with the Hogs (and in the case of Jim Burt dominated a smaller Jeff Bostic) and had the stud linebackers to sniff out and run down the running backs.

I'd say in this day and age with the speed of most defenses, the counter trey simply will not work anymore.

[RiggosMohawk]

I think MartinC and scruffy summed it up for all of us. Weakside 3-4 OLBs are too fast now to run a counter play like this without a blocker assigned to them.

[MarkB452]

>> I believe we ran the counter trey very well against the Broncos in the SB in January 1988, but then again, we did a lot of things well that day.

[Chanhillbilly]

When people (stupid cowboys) starting drafting smaller faster linebackers that could run it down from behind, that was sorta the "end" of it being a bread and butter play.

[Sknsnation]

Was'nt that the first play ran, and CP's first carry as a Skin against the Bucs. I can't remember if they where in a 3 or 4 man front though.That seems ages ago now.

[Skin'Em84]

Was'nt that the first play ran, and CP's first carry as a Skin against the Bucs. I can't remember if they where in a 3 or 4 man front though.That seems ages ago now.

4 Man I assume, they ran a Tampa 2.

[Commander Adama]

Interesting question.

I got a related one: can someone explain the difference between the counter trey and other counter runs (counters that are still run more today)? I have a faint idea, but I'd like to hear more from someone who knows the game...

I can't wait to see this OL run-blocking. They're huge and athletic, I'm pumped...

The counter trey is when the center, right guard, and right tackle will black one way, and the left tackle and left guard pulls and blocks the opposite way. While the counter run is usually just the runningback feinting one direction and then going the opposite.

[Commander Adama]

As far as can it work against a 3-4...it can, but it takes a lot more defenders to be fooled since the linebackers are sitting further back and can have a better view of the play developing.

[Redskin4ever]

I think MartinC and scruffy summed it up for all of us. Weakside 3-4 OLBs are too fast now to run a counter play like this without a blocker assigned to them.

Remember with Gibbs, they found a little success running the counter trey. The adjustment he and Buges made was to pull Cooley or Yoder backside to prevent that OLB from chasing down the RB. Adjustments can be made to make it work, but then the defense will adjust and you have to adjust. I agree that the speed of defensive players does make longer developing runs like this harder to execute these days, but it can be done. And 3-4, 4-3, it doesn't matter if the play is executed better by the offense than the defense, it will work.

[Oldskool]

Remember with Gibbs, they found a little success running the counter trey. The adjustment he and Buges made was to pull Cooley or Yoder backside to prevent that OLB from chasing down the RB. Adjustments can be made to make it work, but then the defense will adjust and you have to adjust. I agree that the speed of defensive players does make longer developing runs like this harder to execute these days, but it can be done. And 3-4, 4-3, it doesn't matter if the play is executed better by the offense than the defense, it will work.

That was 20 years ago or more. The issue that any team that relies on a counter type of OL scheme against 3-4's is two fold:

1st is the LB's. OLB's are bigger and faster than they were back in the day and now have the speed and power to break up the play in the backfield before the RB gets going.

2nd are the NT's. For all of those that say "Well Gibbs blew up the Broncos 3-4 :blahblah: " you have to look at Denver's 3-4 compared to a modern version of the same offense.

Their NT was a guy named Greg Kragen, who was listed at 263 lbs. In comparison Kemoeatu is listed at 364 lbs. Their DE's were 260 and 265lb men. That scheme with those players would not fly in the current NFL. The counter has trouble moving around or over the current NT's and 3-4 DE's in the league. Not to mention the holes that creates for the attacking MLB's to exploit and blow up the play.

There is a reason that the league has either moved to a power blocking scheme (Dallas, SD, Pitt, NYJ, etc) or to a ZBS (Wash, Sea, Hou, Indy). A counter tries to incorporate aspects of both systems but has none of the advantages. It simply isn't effective enough to be a staple.

[GibbsFactor]

I thought the counter trey was designed specifically for the Giants 3-4.

[Oldskool]

I thought the counter trey was designed specifically for the Giants 3-4.

It was more the other way around. LT was really the only player that had the speed and power back in the day to be fast enough to run the play down from behind.

[Utah]

Yes it can be run vs the 3-4. As with any play, it depends on what the defense is doing at any giving time. It depends on if you run it with a fullback or a TE on strong or weak side. There are alot of factors that play on both sides of the ball. But yes it can be run.

Also, the variation that everyone is used to is the G and T. You can do it with different positions as long as you intercept the contain man and pick up the first 'gap fill' defenders, you will have success.

However, in the NFL, speed dominates many parts of the game and in turn have made it so teams do not try this play that often. Though I see it every now and then, it just depends on how explosive you can pick up the contain man and how fast you can hit the lead defender.

Its football. Its a chess match as much as its a physical game.

[The Rook]

I think MartinC and scruffy summed it up for all of us. Weakside 3-4 OLBs are too fast now to run a counter play like this without a blocker assigned to them.

That was why the H-back (Warren) sealed off the backside.

I suggest it is not the speed of the todays LB's that hinders the use of the play, but rather the speed of the DE's that causes the problem. Nowadays, you have two players (DE and LB) on the backside with speed and only one blocker.

Additionally, the lack of the special offensive skill sets needed to make it an elite play also prevents teams from using it.

1. Oline - the need for the backside guard & tackle that can quickly pull and deliver blocks with power.

2. Backside seal off - need a good TE, H-back, Slot etc who can close that door.

3. RB - timing is key, RB should hit the hole when tackle & guard are in their blocks. Too fast - no hole, too slow - the safety has closed the hole.

:helmet:The Rook

[MartinC]

That was why the H-back (Warren) sealed off the backside.

I suggest it is not the speed of the todays LB's that hinders the use of the play, but rather the speed of the DE's that causes the problem. Nowadays, you have two players (DE and LB) on the backside with speed and only one blocker.:helmet:The Rook

Thats a good point about the speed of the DE though thats more of a factor if you are blocking against a 4-3 as opposed to a 3-4. Also with the size of modern OLBs its much harder for a slot receiver to even pretend to block one. Back in the day Art Monk would often come in motion and do a decent job holding up some of that backside pursuit.

[Ryman of the North]

Its actually easier to run on a 3-4 than a 4-3, the trick is to attack the smaller and speedier linebacker rather than letting him run it down from behind. the succsess of the counter trey vs the Giants came when we ran right AT LT not away from him.

[MartinC]

Its actually easier to run on a 3-4 than a 4-3, the trick is to attack the smaller and speedier linebacker rather than letting him run it down from behind. the succsess of the counter trey vs the Giants came when we ran right AT LT not away from him.

The problem is today just about every team has speed all across their defense so whichever way you run you have backside speed to account for.

[CBass1724]

As a former O-lineman, no matter what the defensive front gives you, you always have calls to decide who blocks who - for ANY front they show you, for any play you run. It's all based on alignment. So it's not like you only prepare for 4 man fronts vs a base 4-3 defense. You have to be ready for anything and everything and I believe all teams prepare for stuff like this starting in training camp. Everyone has "keys" you focus on before you snap the ball.

If you can get bodies on the 2nd level to block the LB's, there is no reason the counter-trey or any other counter play with pulling blockers shouldn't work. But you guys are aboslutely right about the backside pursuit. You have to account for that guy(s) these days because the players are track stars in 275 lb bodies.

Also it helps to have a back that can make the first guy miss. Not sure we have that here.