PFT/CSN Washington: Mike Shanahan has made the Redskins older

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Everyone keeps wanting to GET YOUTH. Who is going to teach all these young kids? The coaching staff isn't big enough to teach a team full of 1st and 2nd year players. Thats why you need veterans showing the kids the ropes. I think they are bringing in the best vets they can find, make them gel, and then you'll start seeing more youth trickle in to learn from them. At least I hope this is the case.

So you don't think there would have been enough veterans on the team to teach the young 'uns without first acquiring Larry Johnson, Willie Parker or Joey Galloway? lol

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I don't really see how CB for CP was just a swap. Didn't we send CB and a pick for CP? How is that a swap? Is there something I'm forgetting?

Yeah, that wasn't just a swap, either...that post didn't get too many things right, it seems lol...

[TheGreatBuzz]

So you don't think there would have been enough veterans on the team to teach the young 'uns without first acquiring Larry Johnson, Willie Parker or Joey Galloway? lol

Well I think some of these guys were brought in for competition. And to push some of the prima donnas we have. Seeing as how we are currently over 53 men on the team, I would have to assume (and I think it is a pretty safe assumption) that some of the people here now won't be on the team come time for kick off. Then we will have the best vets we can to teach the younger guys. Like someone said earlier, there wasn't a huge amount of youth available this year due to the CBA, etc.

[rk3025]

What would last year's running backs and wide receivers teach players or you about working toward the play offs?

So you don't think there would have been enough veterans on the team to teach the young 'uns without first acquiring Larry Johnson, Willie Parker or Joey Galloway? lol

[Califan007 The Constipated]

What would last year's running backs and wide receivers teach players or you about working toward the play offs?

So Santana Moss and Clinton Portis have no experience in working towards the playoffs, eh?

[HailGreen28]

Wasn't the Jamaal Brown trade a trade were we "just swapped picks" as well?

Maybe. Depending on how Brown does, the Saints get an extra pick from us.

According to Schefter the Saints received a pair of conditional picks in the deal, with the higher of those hinging on the conditional draft pick Washington must send to Philadelphia to complete the Donovan McNabbRedskins will send a 2011 fourth-round pick to New Orleans and receive a sixth- or seventh-round pick in return; if Washington sends a fourth-round pick to Philadelphia, then Washington's 2011 third-rounder goes to New Orleans with the Saints fifth-round selection back.

New Orleans could also receive a 2012 sixth-round pick, contingent on Brown playing 90 percent of Washington's plays next season or making the Pro Bowl.

Yeah, that wasn't just a swap, either...that post didn't get too many things right, it seems lol...

Yeah, I made some mistakes that post. :censored: Sorry. But the point that we're trading picks for vets about like Gibbs 2.0 did, one of the worst "sins" that period, is still true.

[MustangSteve]

I think McNabb was an upgrade, but the biggest concern about him I have is his injury history. He has only played all 16 games, what, once...twice, in the past 6 or 7 years? If he goes down we might be in trouble unless Sexy Rexy can keep the ball out of opposing players hands or Brennan or Bartel end up legit.

Unfortunately that is one of the downsides of the signing, but it could end up being a blessing later down the road for Colt Brennan or any other young QB brought in. It would be better for them to be groomed by an experienced QB and leader like McNabb, then someone with only half his experience and leadership.

Lets just all hope McNabb stays healthy and catches fire in this new system, after all this is the first time he's ever had this much talent around him at the same time, good weapons at every position, and an OC who will mix things up, and not make him throw 60 times a game, putting all the weight on him to win games. He now has a team and a running game to help him win games, just like John Elway did when Shanahan came to Denver.

The Broncos depended on Elway to win the big one, just like Philly did with Dmac, but as good as he was, it never happened. Not until a new coach, "Mike Shanahan" filled the other positions that were really needed, something Elway never had to work with or to help him win. Now Denver has a Lombardi and Elway wears 2 World Champion rings.

Because of this, DMac could end up having his best years ever, and one of those being a Super year, especially if our defense ends up being as good, or even better then they were.

[NewCliche21]

So far, Shanahallen has gone MORE towards trading picks for veterans than even Gibbs 2.0 did. I'd say "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is appropriate to say at this time.

Shamelessly copied exchange below, where Tris laid it out.

***Preface: The tone of this sounds way harsher than I mean it to be. Late night due to a cat who vomited more than a first-day freshman.***

They're not in the same positions, though, so that comparison is way out of context.

First, there's no CBA, so a player has to be in his sixth year (or fifth?) to be a free agent. In Gibbs's first year, he signed a bunch of free agents because they were available. Nobody's available this year, so trades were necessary.

Second, we had one real draft pick this year. One. We also had nobody on the offensive line. No one. We also, as a lot of us celebrated, didn't have a real quarterback, so we traded for one of the best the East has had in a quarter-century.

These trades are not a second + Bailey for Portis (not a swap for the record), a third for Duckett ( :doh: ), a third and fourth for Lloyd ( :doh: ) or a lot for Campbell ( :doh: ). And yes, I'll eat crow on Campbell.

There are way too many variables to compare the two coaches' first years by the same measures. Apple juice to orange soda.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Unfortunately that is one of the downsides of the signing, but it could end up being a blessing later down the road for Colt Brennan or any other young QB brought in.

It would be better for them to be groomed by an experienced QB and leader like McNabb, then someone with only half his experience and leadership.

Lets just all hope McNabb stays healthy and catches fire in this new system, after all this is the first time he's ever had this much talent around him at the same time, good weapons at every position, and an OC who will mix things up, and not make him throw 60 times a game.

Because of this, he could end up having his best years ever, and one of those being a Super year. Especially if our defense ends up being better, causes turnovers and even scores us some points.

I have to laugh at this.

Not because I don't hope it happens. But it shows one thing that will never change with this team. The fans.

Its the off season and we all have as high of hopes as ever.

[chipwhich]

Huh?

Sorry, guys, but the broken record of previous seasons can't be played for 2010.

Not a broken record. Until anyone in the organization shows we like the draft, how can anyone defend the team as building through it?

As I said, we traded picks this year and next year to build this years team. That my friend is not building through the draft. Sorry. We had 1 desirable draft pick this year for our use.

This has nothing to do with Shanahan as a head coach, or whether he is successful. It has nothing to do with Snyders involvement (although believe me he didn't pick Bruce Allen because Bruce has shown a propensity to draft). So don't kid yourself.

But my comments aren't with regard to bashing anything other than stating the obvious. Barring any unforeseen trade (and I don't foresee anyone we have with real trade value) your 2010 Washington Redskins and 2011 Washington Redskins will be teams built primarily on Free Agents and not much on the draft. I guess your betting on the 2012 team 3 seasons away and that potentially "phantom" pick we are getting for campbell. That my friend is mutually exclusive. Don't try and argue otherwise.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

All you have to do is cut Joey Galloway and the team age drops by 2

[TheGreatBuzz]

Not a broken record. Until anyone in the organization shows we like the draft, how can anyone defend the team as building through it.....

.... Don't try and argue otherwise.

Oh....well, I had a few good arguments against what you said but I guess I'll keep them to myself then.

[brianm23]

first of all, those two conditions are NOT a packaged deal. but even if they were, i would happily take a single super bowl win in the next 10 years. it's been almost 20 since our last one.

You would take one super bowl and sacrifice another decade or more for it? You are absolutely crazy and part of the problem by supporting this madness.

So Santana Moss and Clinton Portis have no experience in working towards the playoffs, eh?

Yeah, but do you want either of those clowns mentoring people? Yeah, Moss can really show the new WRs on how to stop their routes during a playoff game so the other CB can intercept it and run it back for a TD. Maybe he can show them how to mix a HGH ****tail, or even speak at interviews like he's got a college edumucation. Maybe Portis can show the new coming RBs how to skip practice, or how to throw your coaches and offensive line under a bus because you now don't give a damn. Maybe he can show the new RBs that dog fighting isn't really bad, or possibly he can show them how you can get a fellow player benched by running to the coach. The faster those two idiots are off the team, the better.

[Going Commando]

I think Shanallenhan have been acting a little too much like Snyderrato. After they made a bunch of the cuts early on, I expected them to go into a real rebuilding effort with young players and aquiring draft picks, but instead it was just what we've seen for a while in veteran signings and a trading draft picks away. I guess the caliber of players we've gotten are better than what Snyderrato used to get, but at some point we need to realize that all this 'win now' mentality gets us few wins.

Spoken like the fan of a team that doesn't build through the draft.

My sentiments as well. I see a ridiculous amount of hedging and excuse making going on in this thread and I'm amazed its coming from us, of all fanbases. There is no dancing around this subject, on Shanahan and Allen's watch, a bad and old roster got older. All the other old teams the article mentions--the Patriots, Saints, and Cardinals--are not like us. They were all good before they got old. They built through the draft to get their core and they each draft extremely well. They got old because they are so talent rich that draft picks have a hard time making their rosters. All the excuses about Allen not having a lot of options to get younger because of a lack of draft picks ring a bit hollow as he's already traded two picks from next year's class and recouped none. The common excuse there: "look at what we got in return, isn't it worth it?" That's what we all thought about Jason Taylor.

And I think all the "they chose not to rebuild and try and be competitive immediately" talk is absurd. You don't simply choose not to rebuild when you're a bad team. Or if you do, you choose to not be a consistent contender in the hopes that you can string together a few ragtag one and done playoff runs.

[Going Commando]

I love Shanahan as a coach, but I was a bit worried he'd come in with a "win immediately" attitude, which goes back to Al Davis pulling the rug out from under him. The McNabb trade was a mistake in my opinion. The chances of being a real contender are not good during the time McNabb is here. When the Skins are ready, McNabb will be gone and the picks that would be ready to start will be starting for Philadelphia. The other oldies but goodies aren't as big a problem because they didn't cost anything, but at some point you need to fill out the roster with prospects and get a good look at them.

I agree with you and what's more, I'm afraid trading for McNabb means we won't spend the resources to draft a real franchise QB in the next year or two when we'll see historically strong first round QB classes in the draft. I'm afraid we'll think we're set for the short term and spend picks to fill other holes that opened up (on the DL perhaps) that weren't holes before this regime got here.

Or would the worst case scenario be McNabb walking at the end of this season? I don't know. I think it was a bad trade all in all.

[Section123OnSundays]

I'm taking the wait and see approach. If I don't I'll have a heart attack.

[Commander Adama]

I don't care if they have to wheel out geriatric players on to the field in Redskin uniforms...as long as we win more than 4 games like last year.

[Commander Adama]

Spoken like the fan of a team that doesn't build through the draft.

This is their first stint as Coach and GM. Do you blame them for wanting to be competitive their first season then build through the draft. We also got young talent in trades....Jammal Brown (29) and Adam Carriker (26), as well as drafting Selvish Capers and Trent Williams.

But please continue with the pessimism. I think as Redskin fans we will have trouble letting that go. Hopefully when we start winning that will be easier to do.

[MustangSteve]

I have to laugh at this.

Not because I don't hope it happens. But it shows one thing that will never change with this team. The fans.

Its the off season and we all have as high of hopes as ever.

Come on now TGB, how couldn't we have higher hopes after replacing a coach who had no business leading a team, and needed a bingo player to call the plays

Just that alone makes me feel like we already won the Super Bowl lol. But truth is, this is the time for all teams and fans to have high expectations.

With the changes we have made this offseason, some great changes to the most important positions in the game, this team could easily be the surprise team in the league this year.

After all, we were the worst coached, most injured, and had no leadership what so ever at QB, and still played right with the best teams in this league, and should have beat the world champs and other teams who made the playoffs.

That could only mean one thing in the offseason, we are Super Bowl bound buddy! lol :point2sky

[NewCliche21]

Not a broken record. Until anyone in the organization shows we like the draft, how can anyone defend the team as building through it?

As I said, we traded picks this year and next year to build this years team. That my friend is not building through the draft. Sorry. We had 1 desirable draft pick this year for our use.

This has nothing to do with Shanahan as a head coach, or whether he is successful. It has nothing to do with Snyders involvement (although believe me he didn't pick Bruce Allen because Bruce has shown a propensity to draft). So don't kid yourself.

But my comments aren't with regard to bashing anything other than stating the obvious. Barring any unforeseen trade (and I don't foresee anyone we have with real trade value) your 2010 Washington Redskins and 2011 Washington Redskins will be teams built primarily on Free Agents and not much on the draft. I guess your betting on the 2012 team 3 seasons away and that potentially "phantom" pick we are getting for campbell. That my friend is mutually exclusive. Don't try and argue otherwise.

Sorry, chip, but I'll argue otherwise because I believe otherwise. Different people have different opinions, and I suggest that you get used to it.

First, no one's defending anything about the team building through the draft or free agency. I'm saying that we have a very limited sample size in very special circumstances that can't be extrapolated to the future.

We had one great pick because the other ones had already been traded by other people, save for trading for the best quarterback the East has had since Aikman retired.

Again, the CBA prevented real free agent signings, so trades were a fact of life.

The choice of Bruce Allen was a great one, and he wasn't picked specifically to not build through the draft; that's absurd. With a comment like that, I think that you're looking for a hint of a cloud on a sunny day. It's a shame to live that way, man.

I also question your ability to judge the future. Might want to open a 900 number if you're that sure of yourself. :pfft:

Finally, you have to be oblivious to this team if you thought that the 2009 Redskins, less Samuels, was able to be fielded this year. There was no offensive line and no quarterback; that team had no chance. We went out and got some great players, and you're complaining. Again, I'm sorry that you're looking at it that way, but you're making a sweeping generalization off of a coach who's been here for five minutes. That doesn't help your argument.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Come on now TGB, how couldn't we have higher hopes after replacing a coach who had no business leading a team, and needed a bingo player to call the plays

Just that alone makes me feel like we already won the Super Bowl lol. But truth is, this is the time for all teams and fans to have high expectations.

With the changes we have made this offseason, some great changes to the most important positions in the game, this team could easily be the surprise team in the league this year.

After all, we were the worst coached, most injured, and had no leadership what so ever at QB, and still played right with the best teams in this league, and should have beat the world champs and other teams who made the playoffs.

That could only mean one thing in the offseason, we are Super Bowl bound buddy! lol :point2sky

I'm not saying your wrong and I am right there with you on expectations but I can do some digging and find very similar comments from when we hired Zorn, got JC, brought Gibbs back, traded for CP, etc, etc, etc....

We Skins fans aren't known for our objectivity.

[Aireskoi]

What were they supposed to do? The CBA has all the younger players locked up on the teams that drafted them. We didn't have a complete draft due to the decisions of the previous regime, so they were limited there.

What QB could we have acquired that would have made the "were too old crowd" happy? What would we have had to give up to get the QB of your choice?

As far as the rest of the pick-ups, we have added competition to our team. Why is that bad?

I'm sure most of us could have done a better job than BA.

I just look at what he did with our O-line and smile, BA is amazing. He's my new hero. I just don't have to worry about the FO anymore, we have one of the best.

[MustangSteve]

I'm not saying your wrong and I am right there with you on expectations but I can do some digging and find very similar comments from when we hired Zorn, got JC, brought Gibbs back, traded for CP, etc, etc, etc....

We Skins fans aren't known for our objectivity.

Gawd isn't that so true, it doesn't take much at all to get us excited these days

[The Tris]

So far, Shanahallen has gone MORE towards trading picks for veterans than even Gibbs 2.0 did. I'd say "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is appropriate to say at this time.

Shamelessly copied exchange below, where Tris laid it out.

Well, my initial opinion of the matter was that Shanahallen's approach was much more efficient than Gibb's.

The fact that all of Gibbs' signings were of people who had never produced on the level that was expected of them once they got here seemed to make the picks given away and their cumbersome contracts doubly destructive. In retrospect, I have seemingly also made a case that Shanahan is giving away picks at a faster rate than Gibbs.

Nevertheless, I think it is a lot easier to rationalize trading draft picks for a QB and a LT, who have both performed at a Pro Bowl level within the past 2 seasons, than trading draft picks for a #2 WR, a G, or a short yardage RB, who had never come close to performing at a Pro Bowl level.

All that being said, I think the unstated factor here is where your feelings on McNabb lie, and what the long term consequences of that move means for our team. If you hate the move, it probably serves as your main rationale for displeasure of the current strategy taken by the team. If you love the move, you are naturally excited about how this team is being constructed.

I'm not sure anyone is really up in arms about Jammal Brown, nor do I understand why anyone is upset with the veteran signings RB, WR, and DL, based on the talent available, and the structure of the contracts.

It really should come as no surprise that the most devisive topic among Redskins fans is the handling of the QB situation.

[rtandler]

The PFT blurb links to my article, which is here:

Redskins Are Still Over the Hill

It explains things in more depth than the PFT piece. It makes some of the points being made here and also mentions that the second-oldest team last year was the Saints so age does not necessarily equal failure.