PFT/CSN Washington: Mike Shanahan has made the Redskins older

[Ryman of the North]

No I judge a QB by his numbers, by how he elevates his team in big games and most importantly how he plays in the clutch, all of which has Mcnabb found wanting. and if you havent seen that then YOU dont know much about football. how many super bowls? the " he didnt have great receivers" argument is pretty weak considering he had good to great Olines, solid running games (when they actually ran the ball their averages were decent) and a defence that was pretty damn solid for a long long time. if anything his numbers were inflated by throwing so much percentage wise (and they werent that good)

2- no not all players are first rounders, thats not even remotely what I argued, but why argue points ive actually made when you can make statements like that. as for injuries LMAO some of the players we now COUNT ON are coming off pretty bad ones the only true NT on the roster, is Maake, who TORE HIS ACHILLES, Daniels who we will need to have at end is coing off several seasons shortened by injuries and we need him to fill an important role, and Carriker is coming off injuries as well. thats our supposed starting Dline atm or have you been paying attention?

no By my argument we should pick a philosophy and not half ass it, this means if you want to win NOW we sign any and all free agents who are better than what we have. we front load contracts and get around the cap OR we go young and only build through draft and KEY free agents. you can find a middle ground but that doesnt mean watching the best free agents go by and then signing garbage.

4- you do know that stats are a benchmark right? You understand that there are such things as different techniques and players who will fit a system and who will not fit strictly based on their own styles right? You do understand that the NFL is a WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY league where you get paid based on what you have done (unless you are a rookie lol) right? because by your post you seem to think that you can win with inferior talent in the NFL.

[Ryman of the North]

not to derail this argument, but if you somehow think kyle and mike shanahan brought mcnabb in to hand off 50 times a game, or even have a balanced attack, i believe you are gravely mistaken. id bet money right now that by the end of this season our offense is a 60/40 pass/run balance. with the success kyle had in houston heaving it around the past two seasons, coupled with the fact that we have a QB thats used to heaving it around all game, expect us to be throwing a lot.

and thank god, because its about time this team ACTUALLY threw the ball successfully.

thats actually a good point and sadly Mcnabb has never been known for his accuracy, it will be interesting to see what happens. I hope we sign westbrook as we need a pass catcher.

[NewCliche21]

No I judge a QB by his numbers, by how he elevates his team in big games and most importantly how he plays in the clutch, all of which has Mcnabb found wanting. and if you havent seen that then YOU dont know much about football. how many super bowls? the " he didnt have great receivers" argument is pretty weak considering he had good to great Olines, solid running games (when they actually ran the ball their averages were decent) and a defence that was pretty damn solid for a long long time. if anything his numbers were inflated by throwing so much percentage wise (and they werent that good)

2- no not all players are first rounders, thats not even remotely what I argued, but why argue points ive actually made when you can make statements like that. as for injuries LMAO some of the players we now COUNT ON are coming off pretty bad ones the only true NT on the roster, is Maake, who TORE HIS ACHILLES, Daniels who we will need to have at end is coing off several seasons shortened by injuries and we need him to fill an important role, and Carriker is coming off injuries as well. thats our supposed starting Dline atm or have you been paying attention?

no By my argument we should pick a philosophy and not half ass it, this means if you want to win NOW we sign any and all free agents who are better than what we have. we front load contracts and get around the cap OR we go young and only build through draft and KEY free agents. you can find a middle ground but that doesnt mean watching the best free agents go by and then signing garbage.

4- you do know that stats are a benchmark right? You understand that there are such things as different techniques and players who will fit a system and who will not fit strictly based on their own styles right? You do understand that the NFL is a WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY league where you get paid based on what you have done (unless you are a rookie lol) right? because by your post you seem to think that you can win with inferior talent in the NFL.

I can't believe how out of touch you are with the reality of the NFL, but I'll try and break it down for you some more.

1) I mean, you basically give a paragraph of nothing. You can't refute what he did, and you can't say that other quarterbacks would do better, so you just type a bunch of excuses for why this winning quarterback who has a legit shot at Canton if he can win a ring is not any good? Great argument there.

2) As your argument was already refuted but you chose to ignore: All of the free agents that you mentioned are 6+ years into the league, so that's not young. There were very few at key positions, and they wanted outrageous amounts of money. They were not leaders and they would not be able to just be plugged in without affecting the team (Madden doesn't work regardless of how many times you pretend to argue that it does).

3) From where, exactly, were those draft picks supposed to come? And what was supposed to be on the field this year? I'll wait.

4) So McNabb is a worthless quarterback who only won so much because he benefitted from the system, but we should sign guys who have done well because they've done so independently of their system. That makes sense. Keep it up, though. Circular arguments are pretty fun to watch. :

)

[NewCliche21]

thats actually a good point and sadly Mcnabb has never been known for his accuracy, it will be interesting to see what happens. I hope we sign westbrook as we need a pass catcher.

He HAS been known for winning games, so has Kyle, and so has Mike. But, you know, that's irrelevant because McNabb is inaccurate and he's the only variable on the team.

[NewCliche21]

And Ryman, I don't want it to come across that I think that you're a dumb person or don't know football, because I don't.

I do think that you're hung up on McNabb and are buying a bomb shelter because you think that the sky has shattered, and it hasn't.

It's not a Super Bowl year, but it's not the end of the world. Believe it or not, we'll be better than 4-12.

[Ryman of the North]

I can't believe how out of touch you are with the reality of the NFL, but I'll try and break it down for you some more.

1) I mean, you basically give a paragraph of nothing. You can't refute what he did, and you can't say that other quarterbacks would do better, so you just type a bunch of excuses for why this winning quarterback who has a legit shot at Canton if he can win a ring is not any good? Great argument there.

2) As your argument was already refuted but you chose to ignore: All of the free agents that you mentioned are 6+ years into the league, so that's not young. There were very few at key positions, and they wanted outrageous amounts of money. They were not leaders and they would not be able to just be plugged in without affecting the team (Madden doesn't work regardless of how many times you pretend to argue that it does).

3) From where, exactly, were those draft picks supposed to come? And what was supposed to be on the field this year? I'll wait.

4) So McNabb is a worthless quarterback who only won so much because he benefitted from the system, but we should sign guys who have done well because they've done so independently of their system. That makes sense. Keep it up, though. Circular arguments are pretty fun to watch. :

)

1- wow just wow, you may actually win the award for worst debater on this forum of all time. I posted what you asked, details on why I dont think Mcnabb is as good as you think. your reply is pretty much like a 2 year old putting his fingers in his ears and yelling "loud noises". nice work

2- Kampman was not given a massive deal, Henderson was not given a massive deal, Dansby would have been our best linebacker and would have been making good money which is fine, and rolle got more than we would have given him but atogwe we could have had on the cheap, but hey why argue when you can just say you did? as for Peppers, only a moron would argue that Peppers with Haynesworth would have given us the best DE DT combo in the league, the only one close would be in Minnesota. add in Rak and Maake (in a rotation) and we would have by far the best front 4 in the NFL. instead we have more questions than answers.

3- its not circular at all, YOU seem to think that Mcnabb is a panacea, he will instantly give us offence, I think he was overrated and while a slight imporvement over what we had he is aging and not going to be as much of a difference makes as having the shannahns will.

now feel free to put your fingers back in and chant about how im not arguing with facts while you so obviously are.

as for draft picks we should have used them all on O while signing d free agents , if we didnt swicth the script we could have done that easily.

[The Tris]

not to derail this argument, but if you somehow think kyle and mike shanahan brought mcnabb in to hand off 50 times a game, or even have a balanced attack, i believe you are gravely mistaken. id bet money right now that by the end of this season our offense is a 60/40 pass/run balance. with the success kyle had in houston heaving it around the past two seasons, coupled with the fact that we have a QB thats used to heaving it around all game, expect us to be throwing a lot.

and thank god, because its about time this team ACTUALLY threw the ball successfully.

If you look at what Shanahan did with his last 33 year old QB, that's exactly what he did.

Do you really not expect the Shanahan Redskins to run the ball more than the Reid Eagles? In 1994, the Broncos ran 40% of the time. Under Shanahan, that number rose continuously to 43%, 50%, 51% and 52%. He has always had his greatest success when he has a balanced offense.

His last season in Denver, the year basically every Bronco RB went on IR, despite all of Cutler's success, they were running only 39% of the time and were forced into shoot outs their defense couldn't slow down.

The McNabb signing and the signing of 3 #1 style backs signals to me that he is trying to go back to the balanced attack of his earlier years where the run set up play action and deep passing. What better QB for that than one of the more accurate deep passers in the NFL, McNabb?

We might not have a 1600 yard rusher, but I could see CP, LJ and WP combine for 1600 yards, and give McNabb a commitment to the rushing attack he has never had in his career.

The only think I'd change from when I posted that two months ago is substitute 1600 for 2000, and RT for WP.

I think that giving McNabb a more balance offense is going to help his game, not hurt it.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

thats actually a good point and sadly Mcnabb has never been known for his accuracy, it will be interesting to see what happens. I hope we sign westbrook as we need a pass catcher.

accuracy means jack to me as long as youre scoring points, and last i checked, dude scores spanktons of points. john elways career comp % was like 48%, but he scored points. our last QB hovered around 65%, and that worked real well for us didnt it? lol

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

If you look at what Shanahan did with his last 33 year old QB, that's exactly what he did.

mike shanahan is the head coach. our offense is run by kyle shanahan. its his system from houston the previous two seasons, not mike shanahans offense.

[NewCliche21]

1- wow just wow, you may actually win the award for worst debater on this forum of all time. I posted what you asked, details on why I dont think Mcnabb is as good as you think. your reply is pretty much like a 2 year old putting his fingers in his ears and yelling "loud noises". nice work

2- Kampman was not given a massive deal, Henderson was not given a massive deal, Dansby would have been our best linebacker and would have been making good money which is fine, and rolle got more than we would have given him but atogwe we could have had on the cheap, but hey why argue when you can just say you did? as for Peppers, only a moron would argue that Peppers with Haynesworth would have given us the best DE DT combo in the league, the only one close would be in Minnesota. add in Rak and Maake (in a rotation) and we would have by far the best front 4 in the NFL. instead we have more questions than answers.

3- its not circular at all, YOU seem to think that Mcnabb is a panacea, he will instantly give us offence, I think he was overrated and while a slight imporvement over what we had he is aging and not going to be as much of a difference makes as having the shannahns will.

now feel free to put your fingers back in and chant about how im not arguing with facts while you so obviously are.

as for draft picks we should have used them all on O while signing d free agents , if we didnt swicth the script we could have done that easily.

1) Interesting. You accuse me of doing exactly what you are doing. Kind of like the senator that rails against homosexuality and then reaches for some toilet paper under the stall. No, I'm not calling you gay, but I am saying that your hypocrisy is palpable. I won't sink to your level with the insults, but you can wallow in them all that you want. Our exchange is clear. You disregard McNabb's career and then go on to say that people are paid based on what they do over their careers. You don't have an argument, so you resort to comments like those. That's fine. Whatever makes you feel like a man.

2) Again, you ignore that there is much more to football than plugging players in. You even try to use Haynesworth when he doesn't even want to be on the team, and you use our NT in your argument in this post while saying that he's nothing but an injury waiting to happen in your previous ones. That's fine.

3) I don't think that he's a panacea. I think that he's a hell of a lot better than we've had in either of our lifetimes. You think that he's slightly better than Jason Campbell. Talk about hearing no evil . . .

I'm done with this exchange. You're throwing **** against the wall and seeing what will stick, but nothing is because your arguments are atrocious, so you're resorting to insults. That's fine. Again, whatever makes you feel like a man.

[The Tris]

mike shanahan is the head coach. our offense is run by kyle shanahan. its his system from houston the previous two seasons, not mike shanahans offense.

Despite the fact that Mike Shanahan's OC was Kyle Shanahan's HC. But no, since the Texans passed 57% of the time the two years he was OC, we are going to pass 57% of the time.

Where do you suppose that Kyle Shanahan's system (that he took over from Kubiak) came from?

You can't really believe that Mike Shanahan's offense and Kyle Shanahan's offense are mutually exclusive.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Despite the fact that Mike Shanahan's OC was Kyle Shanahan's HC. But no, since the Texans passed 57% of the time the two years he was OC, we are going to pass 57% of the time.

Where do you suppose that Kyle Shanahan's system (that he took over from Kubiak) came from?

You can't really believe that Mike Shanahan's offense and Kyle Shanahan's offense are mutually exclusive.

the texans threw the ball a ton and i expect us to do the same unless were up by 30 at half time every week. the days of power running vanilla boring clock grinding 1986 football are over (hopefully). houston was 4th in attempts in 09 and 7th in 08. we were 20th in 09 and 17th in 08. again, something that is over (hopefully).

[Going Commando]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying that there aren't really good prospects at those positions based on actual game experience. Some of the young players will probably pan out. But there is only one position on the team that I know of with a clear replacement who is both young and starting quality, and that's TE.

If you want to believe that Jarmon is starting quality, fine. But he's a third rounder with almost no game experience. If you want to believe that a 4, a 6 and three 7s are going to form the nucleus of the future, fine. Odds are that only one or two of those players will be here in the next couple of years.

Jarmon is an OLB now anyway and he's coming off an ACL tear. You also forgot to mention the positions where we have fairly young players that are likely to walk in FA once they can like Rocky McIntosh. Since it appears our brilliant leaders completely fubared their relationship with Albert Haynesworth and he'll soon be leaving, it looks like the defensive line went from looking like an absolute strength to an absolute weakness in the span of a single offseason. Color me unimpressed with trotting out a 37 year old Philip Daniels, a 34 year old Vonnie Holliday, and a 32 year old Maake Kemoeatu (coming off what will probably end up being a career ending Achilles injury) as our new starting group. All we've got to look forward to is Adam Carriker. What is it they say? One team's first round bust is another team's... first round bust... Meanwhile we just sat out the strongest draft class of defensive linemen in decades.

Should it really take so much work to convince myself our draft and free agency classes were mostly good moves? Usually if a move is so completely counterintuitive, it's because it was dumb. So far the only trade I've liked was the Jammal Brown trade and even he came with plenty of flaws (looking for a big pay day, 29, coming off a couple of serious injuries).

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Jarmon is an OLB now anyway and he's coming off an ACL tear. You also forgot to mention the positions where we have fairly young players that are likely to walk in FA once they can like Rocky McIntosh. Since it appears our brilliant leaders completely fubared their relationship with Albert Haynesworth and he'll soon be leaving, it looks like the defensive line went from looking like an absolute strength to an absolute weakness in the span of a single offseason. Color me unimpressed with trotting out a 37 year old Philip Daniels, a 34 year old Vonnie Holliday, and a 32 year old Maake Kemoeatu (coming off what will probably end up being a career ending Achilles injury) as our new starting group. All we've got to look forward to is Adam Carriker. What is it they say? One team's first round bust is another team's... first round bust... Meanwhile we just sat out the strongest draft class of defensive linemen in decades.

Should it really take so much work to convince myself our draft and free agency classes were mostly good moves? Usually if a move is so completely counterintuitive, it's because it was dumb. So far the only trade I've liked was the Jammal Brown trade and even he came with plenty of flaws (looking for a big pay day, 29, coming off a couple of serious injuries).

lorenzo alexander and golston are both going to be fixtures on that dline. i dont get your mancrush on haynesworth, the dude is a flat out cancer and nobody screwed anything up other than vinny for bringing that clown in here and paying him. he wasnt even that good last year for the money he was making. when he was on the field, he was solid, too bad he missed 25% of the season and took numerous plays off while faking injuries and wheezing on the sidelines cause he was so out of shape. im sure other teams are just dying to get haynesworth from us, theyre all beating down our door to get such a great player.

rome wasnt built in a day, were going to build this thing in pieces. so our dline has some old guys, oh well. most of the guys are just stepping stones and placeholders for younger guys that we will be getting in the future.

[CBass1724]

Spoken like the fan of a team that doesn't build through the draft.

Nowhere did I say I support this way of doing things. I was merely stating facts.

[Going Commando]

It's not a Super Bowl year, but it's not the end of the world. Believe it or not, we'll be better than 4-12.

If that's your standard of success, then I feel sorry for this fan base. Is that what are expectations have come to? By that measure, Gibbs 2 was a rousing success...

I don't know about anyone else, but I expect our FO to build a consistent contender. Is that so outlandish? Ted Leonsis gave us this with the Capitals and is giving it to us with the Wizards as we speak. And how is he doing this? By building a talented young core that will grow together through the mother****ing draft. I'd argue that with the attrition NFL rosters face, building successfully through the draft and developing your own talent is several times more important than it is even in basketball and hockey, and yet this is exactly what we are not doing. I will NOT be satisfied with the odd, one and done, playoff run every three or four years interspersed with 6-10/7-9 seasons undone by a key injury or two.

God I hope Leonsis buys this team some day.

[Commander Adama]

accuracy means jack to me as long as youre scoring points, and last i checked, dude scores spanktons of points.

Is "spanktons" the new word of the day? I like it. It's catchy.

[NewCliche21]

If that's your standard of success, then I feel sorry for this fan base. Is that what are expectations have come to? By that measure, Gibbs 2 was a rousing success...

I don't know about anyone else, but I expect our FO to build a consistent contender. Is that so outlandish? Ted Leonsis gave us this with the Capitals and is giving it to us with the Wizards as we speak. And how is he doing this? By building a talented young core that will grow together through the mother****ing draft. I'd argue that with the attrition NFL rosters face, building successfully through the draft and developing your own talent is several times more important than it is even in basketball and hockey, and yet this is exactly what we are not doing. I will NOT be satisfied with the odd, one and done, playoff run every three or four years interspersed with 6-10/7-9 seasons undone by a key injury or two.

God I hope Leonsis buys this team some day.

Seriously? You're taking my "We will be better than 4-12" when talking about THIS SEASON and saying that I'm happy with 5-11 or better?

And you're blaming all of these future failures (no need to watch the games) on Snyder?

That post is a waste of text and below you, steve.

[TheLongshot]

the texans threw the ball a ton and i expect us to do the same unless were up by 30 at half time every week. the days of power running vanilla boring clock grinding 1986 football are over (hopefully). houston was 4th in attempts in 09 and 7th in 08. we were 20th in 09 and 17th in 08. again, something that is over (hopefully).

Course, neither Gibbs nor Zorn was about "power running vanilla boring clock grinding 1986 football", whatever the hell that means. But, they had to lean on the running game when they couldn't get what they wanted out of the passing game. The opposite was true for the Texans, since they couldn't run the ball last year.

This is still Shanahan Sr's team and his offense starts with the running backs. That doesn't mean that the offense will be "boring", tho clock grinding and playing keep away from powerful offenses is still a valuable strategy.

[NewCliche21]

Course, neither Gibbs nor Zorn was about "power running vanilla boring clock grinding 1986 football", whatever the hell that means. But, they had to lean on the running game when they couldn't get what they wanted out of the passing game. The opposite was true for the Texans, since they couldn't run the ball last year.

This is still Shanahan Sr's team and his offense starts with the running backs. That doesn't mean that the offense will be "boring", tho clock grinding and playing keep away from powerful offenses is still a valuable strategy.

I think that we're going to see a lot more Kyle than you think. Our running game is our best bet right now, but I'm with BLC on the 60/40 by year's end (in February, of course).

[Going Commando]

lorenzo alexander and golston are both going to be fixtures on that dline. i dont get your mancrush on haynesworth, the dude is a flat out cancer and nobody screwed anything up other than vinny for bringing that clown in here and paying him. he wasnt even that good last year for the money he was making. when he was on the field, he was solid, too bad he missed 25% of the season and took numerous plays off while faking injuries and wheezing on the sidelines cause he was so out of shape. im sure other teams are just dying to get haynesworth from us, theyre all beating down our door to get such a great player.

rome wasnt built in a day, were going to build this thing in pieces. so our dline has some old guys, oh well. most of the guys are just stepping stones and placeholders for younger guys that we will be getting in the future.

Lorenzo is going to play OLB too in our base set apparently. I've always like Golston and I'm glad to see him stay, but even I wouldn't argue that he was more than a rotational player in the 4-3 and he'll be moving into a new role this year.

As for Haynesworth, I won't get into a thread jacking argument over how good he was last year but suffice to say I believe he was outstanding and among the best at his position in the league. KC Joyner wrote a very good article defending his play from last year that you can read if you have ESPN insider. I don't, otherwise I'd post a link, but it was only from a couple of weeks ago I think.

What I will say is that I find it surprising that, by and large, Haslett and Shanahan have seemed to completely avoid criticism in the deteriorating situation with Haynesworth. I think it amounts to a massive failure in leadership on their part that one of the best players on our entire team became so alienated as a direct result of their actions (or inactions). I believe special players sometimes need special consideration and its a mark of good leadership to adapt your style to suit the needs of the people you're put in charge of, however diverse they may be. Darrellgreenie gave a really good anecdote once about how Fred Dean got a few special considerations as a HoF player for the 49ers--smoking during half time (of a game he had 3 sacks in during the first half), smoking in the locker room and laying around instead of lifting weights like everyone else. Do you think that didn't piss Bill Walsh off a little to see one of his best players setting such a poor example? But Bill Walsh was a great coach and a great leader and he learned to manage Dean to get the absolute most out of him. If Mike Shanahan is the superlative coach everyone seems to think he is, why did he let the trouble with Albert become so acute? Would Joe Gibbs have? Or would Joe Gibbs have reached out to Albert and worked extra hard to bring him into the fold and inform him of the specifics of his new role. I think he would have.

I understand that the rebuilding process takes time, but to my eye, it will take us even longer because we refuse to go ahead and start it in earnest. Donovan McNabb was an expensive place-holder if that's all he is. If it's not done with a view towards imminent contention, why make the move at all? Couldn't we get about the same level of quarterbacking on a mediocre to bad team out of a Rex Grossman or Derek Anderson?

[Ryman of the North]

1) Interesting. You accuse me of doing exactly what you are doing. Kind of like the senator that rails against homosexuality and then reaches for some toilet paper under the stall. No, I'm not calling you gay, but I am saying that your hypocrisy is palpable. I won't sink to your level with the insults, but you can wallow in them all that you want. Our exchange is clear. You disregard McNabb's career and then go on to say that people are paid based on what they do over their careers. You don't have an argument, so you resort to comments like those. That's fine. Whatever makes you feel like a man.

2) Again, you ignore that there is much more to football than plugging players in. You even try to use Haynesworth when he doesn't even want to be on the team, and you use our NT in your argument in this post while saying that he's nothing but an injury waiting to happen in your previous ones. That's fine.

3) I don't think that he's a panacea. I think that he's a hell of a lot better than we've had in either of our lifetimes. You think that he's slightly better than Jason Campbell. Talk about hearing no evil . . .

I'm done with this exchange. You're throwing **** against the wall and seeing what will stick, but nothing is because your arguments are atrocious, so you're resorting to insults. That's fine. Again, whatever makes you feel like a man.

1- are you on something? YOU accused me of not knowing anything about football and then proceeded to use the same tired argumnets about Mcnabb in your posts, when I refuted them you didnt bother to argue my arguments and just ignored them while chnaging yours. im not sure what your homophobic rant was about but it was out of place and somewhat like the rest of your argumnets not even remotely on point.

2- I am well aware that football is far more than plugging players in, why do you think im so against the swicth to the 3-4? however id rather have the talent to at least make the shot worthwhile rather than hide behind the cliche" every team needs crappy role players" screw that, give me a team of talented guys behind a leader any day. I didnt mention haynesworth starting on our dline, not even once so maybe you should go back and read every damn post ive made because obviously you havent and are simply arguing like a retard in the dark. I said that had we stayed in a 4-3 we would have the best dline in the NFL, and had we added a couple of guys WHO WE EASILY COULD HAVE, we would be set.

I also said 'given our switch to the 3-4 we seem to be depending a LOT on 3 guys who are coming off serious injuries and we dont have any sort of back up plan for that." that was in response to YOU making a comment about our dline and depth.

3-Ive had Joe theismann and Mark Rypien, both of whom I would take in a second over Mcnabb. and actually I said Mcnabb was a slight upgrade over what we had, but then why post when you can just put words in my mouth.

go back and read our exchange, see who was aggressive and insulting first and then look at your poor disply of "debate"

if you dont agree with me then fine but saying nah nah nah doesnt cut it.

[Ryman of the North]

Lorenzo is going to play OLB too in our base set apparently. I've always like Golston and I'm glad to see him stay, but even I wouldn't argue that he was more than a rotational player in the 4-3 and he'll be moving into a new role this year.

As for Haynesworth, I won't get into a thread jacking argument over how good he was last year but suffice to say I believe he was outstanding and among the best at his position in the league. KC Joyner wrote a very good article defending his play from last year that you can read if you have ESPN insider. I don't, otherwise I'd post a link, but it was only from a couple of weeks ago I think.

What I will say is that I find it surprising that, by and large, Haslett and Shanahan have seemed to completely avoid criticism in the deteriorating situation with Haynesworth. I think it amounts to a massive failure in leadership on their part that one of the best players on our entire team became so alienated as a direct result of their actions (or inactions). I believe special players sometimes need special consideration and its a mark of good leadership to adapt your style to suit the needs of the people you're put in charge of, however diverse they may be. Darrellgreenie gave a really good anecdote once about how Fred Dean got a few special considerations as a HoF player for the 49ers--smoking during half time (of a game he had 3 sacks in during the first half), smoking in the locker room and laying around instead of lifting weights like everyone else. Do you think that didn't piss Bill Walsh off a little to see one of his best players setting such a poor example? But Bill Walsh was a great coach and a great leader and he learned to manage Dean to get the absolute most out of him. If Mike Shanahan is the superlative coach everyone seems to think he is, why did he let the trouble with Albert become so acute? Would Joe Gibbs have? Or would Joe Gibbs have reached out to Albert and worked extra hard to bring him into the fold and inform him of the specifics of his new role. I think he would have.

I understand that the rebuilding process takes time, but to my eye, it will take us even longer because we refuse to go ahead and start it in earnest. Donovan McNabb was an expensive place-holder if that's all he is. If it's not done with a view towards imminent contention, why make the move at all? Couldn't we get about the same level of quarterbacking on a mediocre to bad team out of a Rex Grossman or Derek Anderson?

absolutely agree, but since we are not drinking the koolaid we are a minority here

[Mahons21]

If that's your standard of success, then I feel sorry for this fan base. Is that what are expectations have come to? By that measure, Gibbs 2 was a rousing success...

-No but had he and Zorn switched places in the timeline of Redskins coaching, it would have been a welcome improvement.

In addition Superbowl teams aren't made over night, they are made up over years of trades/FA/Drafting. I for one am happy with the first steps we've taken in order to become a contending team.

I don't know about anyone else, but I expect our FO to build a consistent contender. Is that so outlandish? Ted Leonsis gave us this with the Capitals and is giving it to us with the Wizards as we speak. And how is he doing this? By building a talented young core that will grow together through the mother****ing draft.

I don't want this topic to digress into other sports, but the CAPS and the WIZ? Give me a ****ing break.

-The Capitals have all the talent in the world, but how did they do in the Playoffs? One might say some veteran leadership could have helped them out alot.

-The Wizards? They were awful last season, they gave Gilbert Arenas a contract about the double the size of what he deserves, but now because they had one good draft, due to luck in the draft lottery and a Chicago Bulls team that needed to clear some cap space, they're on the "right path". Give me a break.

I'd argue that with the attrition NFL rosters face, building successfully through the draft and developing your own talent is several times more important than it is even in basketball and hockey, and yet this is exactly what we are not doing. I will NOT be satisfied with the odd, one and done, playoff run every three or four years interspersed with 6-10/7-9 seasons undone by a key injury or two.

-This front office has had one year, one year dude come on now. Let's give them a little more time. So far they've traded lost all of what like 2 draft picks? And in return they got a pro-bowl LT, and pro-bowl QB... Doesn't sound like that bad of a deal to me.

God I hope Leonsis buys this team some day.

-Danny Boy seems to be coming around, letting football people handle football matters, but the true test will come when he's faced with a losing season. What will he do then? Will he return to his old fantasy football ways...

[Going Commando]

Seriously? You're taking my "We will be better than 4-12" when talking about THIS SEASON and saying that I'm happy with 5-11 or better?

And you're blaming all of these future failures (no need to watch the games) on Snyder?

That post is a waste of text and below you, steve.

I've seen too many posters saying something along the lines of, "well, at least we'll be better than last year" as a defense for some of the questionable moves Shanahan and Allen have made this offseason. That's a weak measurement of progress IMO.

Aside from that, (and I'll grant I might be alone in this), but this whole offseason feels so eerily similar to 2004's that I can't help but draw the comparison between Mike Shanahan's immanent tenure and Gibbs 2. With every Donovan McNabb trade and lackluster draft pick we make, it's like I can feel a yoke of mediocrity baring down heavier. Has building like we're trying to build ever built a consistent winner? I don't think it has.

And all of this is made so much worse for me because of what Leonsis is doing with his teams. We see the standard model of sustainable success being employed right before our very eyes and we see that it's exactly what the Redskins are not doing. It just makes my eyes glaze over when I think about our situation.