street_lyte Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 This is a very IF-based thread idea, but I thought of this today, and thought it was interesting to think about... We all know and love Joe Gibbs, for what he has done for this organization. He's the guy even NON-skins fans respect and admire. That being said, we all know the effects of Gibbs 2.0... Selling the farm to move up and grab Campbell, shipping off Bailey for Portis and a 2nd, generally below-average drafting, plus so many other horrendous trades it's embarrassing to even think about it. Granted, Vinny had a part in some of these moves, but we all know that Gibbs was involved in them heavily as well. We've all pretty much concluded he was in a win-now attitude, but even that doesn't justify a lot of moves that were made. His results were 2 wild-card berths, and no playoff wins in 4 years. Not terrible, but not really great either, certainly nothing at all to be proud of. Skipping over the Zorn era, (:doh:) we now have Shanahan/Allen. I think that MS, like Gibbs, is in a win-now attitude, but he's doing it the right way. With the help of Allen, we are making quality deals, and with the recent Brown move, me may have actually committed our first act of Front-Office larceny. If MS over the next 4-5 years brings us back to being a legitimate Super Bowl contender, while at the same time building us up for the future and handpicking our next franchise QB, and possibly(hopefully) handing the team to Kyle....what would that do to Gibbs' legacy? You can't touch Gibbs 1.0... for obvious reasons, but wouldn't the above scenario turn Gibbs 2.0 from a promising but disappointing run, to an absolute disaster, and possibly even an era of Skins football that we would like to sweep under the rug along with Spurrier/Zorn/etc...? I think some of us already feel that way about 2.0, but don't want to admit it, because we (understandably) don't like the idea of trashing Gibbs. Wouldn't success with MS make 2.0 look much more like a failure than a...whatever it was? Many of you older guys here forget that most of the 20-something and younger Skins fans didn't live through Gibbs 1.0, and many of them hardly know anything about it. To them, Gibbs is guy who brought the Redskins to glory, and then failed when he tried again. followed by an embarrassing 4 year stretch. In the league of "What-have-you-done-for-me-lately", Gibbs hasn't done ANYTHING for them at all. What if MS brings us a Super Bowl win? We would, for the first time, have two different SB-winning Redskins coaches, each with 3 wings. The constant comparison's between the two would ineveitable. While it would be a HUGE task of Mike/Kyle Shanahan dethroning/sharing the throne with Gibbs as a Redskins legend, don't think that it's not possible. He has the chance to change our 4-12 embarrassment of a franchise, back to something a lot of us really havn't experienced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Interesting thoughts. I had never really thought about that. While MS would have 3 rings, they wouldn't all be Redskins rings. Like you said, Gibbs 1.0 is untouchable. But what would it do to Gibbs 2.0 and thus, his whole legacy? I'm interested to see other opinions on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDigi Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 no. shanahan's potential success will not affect gibbs' legacy any more than gibbs 2.0 already has. just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kappaluvacee Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 ??? Gibbs Legacy / Shanahan Legacy are mutually exclusive. Neither has a thing to do with the other. Hell, Gibbs I vs Gibbs II is discussed in different perspective, why would a while other coach be compared to Gibbs' legacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
professor21 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 gibbs won 3 superbowls with no-name QBs, MS won 2 with a top 5 hof QB, with a potential to win 1 more with another future hof QB. not in the slightest bit is gibbs legacy tarnished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DButz65 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 If Shanny wins 4 super bowls, it still would not effect Joe Gibbs legacy, what so ever..Gibbs is who put the Skins on the map, his legacy will last forever in the hearts and minds of TRUE Redskins fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
street_lyte Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 ??? Gibbs Legacy / Shanahan Legacy are mutually exclusive. Neither has a thing to do with the other. Hell, Gibbs I vs Gibbs II is discussed in different perspective, why would a while other coach be compared to Gibbs' legacy? I thought of this as well, but I think that MS does affect Gibbs, because we don't know what winning is like without Gibbs at the helm. I think if MS takes us to the promised land, there will be legitimate debates as to who is the better coach. Gibbs coached in an NFL era that was far-less complicated scheme-wise, and with lesser athletes. Plus, factor in the next generation of Skins fans under MS. MS would be the one bringing them the championship. I imagine that MS's legacy could eclipse Gibbs in their minds, and that's one of the points I'm trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Gibbs 1.0 beats the living hell out of almost all coaching legacies. And is debateably only matched by the greatest in NFL history. Shanny's got an awesome resume as OC and HC, but like a lot of really good coaches, there's no comparison with Gibbs. Shanny wasn't out of the NFL nearly as long as Gibbs 2.0 was. And while the overall record of G 2.0 was unimpressive, let's see if Shanny can get us a playoff trip every other year. (That would be great!) So no, if Shanny leads us to three Super Bowls victories the next 8-9 years, we can talk. (And that would be really awesome) But till then, Gibbs' legacy is untouched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HLF Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 4 or 5 Superbowls in a 10 years span or so would surpass him IMO. He'll still go down as the GOAT tho just cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgundyBlog Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 cool post. i don't think shanny has any ability to tarnish the golden Gibbs name. it's clear that Joe's second run was a far cry from his first, but any hit his legacy might have taken (and i think it was a very small one) should already have been absorbed. even the sequel is probably bashed more than he deserves, as he did make the playoffs twice, and even more importantly, he was absolutely the right man to be leading that team through the tragic death of sean taylor. in fact, their late-season run that year is one of my best memories about the Redskins in the last 15 years. i would love to see mike succeed, and then handoff to kyle. it's almost a dream scenario. but i don't expect it at all, and not because i doubt either one of them. i think it's unlikely because kyle is already so well-respected that he should have plenty of head coaching opportunities before his dad's time in DC is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
street_lyte Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 If Shanny wins 4 super bowls, it still would not effect Joe Gibbs legacy, what so ever..Gibbs is who put the Skins on the map, his legacy will last forever in the hearts and minds of TRUE Redskins fans I disagree, and please, get rid of that "TRUE" Redskin fan crap. You are 39 years old. Are you telling me if someone who is 12 years old now sees MS get us a couple more rings, that MS won't and shouldn't mean more to him than Gibbs does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Did Bill Cowher diminish Chuck Noll's legacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
street_lyte Posted June 21, 2010 Author Share Posted June 21, 2010 Did Bill Cowher diminish Chuck Noll's legacy? It's a good comparison, but not a great one. There was no Chuck Noll 2.0 to factor in. Cowher had never won before his 2005 ring. Cowher also didn't have the monumental task of changing an entire franchise from a league-wide embarrassment to something to be truly proud of again. While MS hasn't done that yet, he sure has given us something to be excited about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 <snip>Cowher also didn't have the monumental task of changing an entire franchise from a league-wide embarrassment to something to be truly proud of again. While MS hasn't done that yet, he sure has given us something to be excited about.Gibbs 2.0 actually accomplished lifting us from laughingstock, to becoming a force to be reckoned with again. Again, hope we get a SB or three under Shanny. But Shanny wasn't out of the NFL for a decade before coming here, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. S Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Gibbs 2.0 actually accomplished lifting us from laughingstock, to becoming a force to be reckoned with again. ...and Gibbs 2 still left us as a laughingstock once Zorn came in. The Zorn era factors in heavily, but overall, I for one do not see Gibbs 2.0 as anything special apart from the 2005 season. The moves we made were pretty horrendous overall. Mainly, all those trades we did. Sure, Vinny and Dan had their hand to play. In fact, I feel Gibbs legacy would be higher if his 2nd tenure could be removed. Gibbs 1.0 is untouchable though, and even if Shanahan were to win 3 superbowls in 10 years like Gibbs 1 did, they'd both stand together at best. Other factors would have to be considered, like if strikes occur, who our QB's and RB's are, etc.... Gibbs did what he did with different QB's, RB's, strike players, etc.... That is pretty impressive and hopefully Shanahan will not have to deal with any of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgngold fan Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 I disagree, and please, get rid of that "TRUE" Redskin fan crap. You are 39 years old. Are you telling me if someone who is 12 years old now sees MS get us a couple more rings, that MS won't and shouldn't mean more to him than Gibbs does? just because a 12 yeaar old does not remember gibbs. does not tarnish gibbs in any way. new era for the kid. even gibbs 2.0 had its downs. but still what skins team made the playoffs before he got there. and it was gibbs that had the team set up to win when he left. it was cerreto and snyder that demolished everything that gibbs had set up. and i still believe if gibbs had stayed one more year they would have made a serious run for the super bowl in his last season. of course todd collins would have been playing qb as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryman of the North Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Shannahan would need to win at least 3 superbowls HERE before anyone could consider him in Joes league, and given the start with the change in defence, I dont see that happeneing. I would love it if he turns out to be a genius with this move to the 3-4 but in reality I see an imporved offence combined with a weaker defence getting us to a 7-9record and thats only if Mcrapp stays healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tris Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 It's a good comparison, but not a great one. I just think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. If Shanahan wins, he will be loved. How that changes what Joe Gibbs did is beyond me. There was Joe Gibbs, there is now Mike Shanahan, and there will be someone else in the future. It's very hard to debate rankings while the people you are ranking are still active. It's like...if Portis ends up with X more yards, some people are going to think Portis was the greatest Redskins RB, and others will think Riggins. But to have that debate before we know what X is? How can you even do that. So, Is your real question, what does Mike Shanahan have to do to be considered the greatest Redskins coach of all time? If so, I'd rather focus on Mike Shanahan having a .500 record his first season, then start talking about how many Super Bowls he is going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 Even as conjecture, each legacy stands or falls on its own. If Shanahan gets 4 SuperBowl appearances over 10 years and wins 3, then he is Gibbs equal. Anything less ...is less. Anything more., etc. Gibbs 1.0 = Gibbs + Beathard + Jack Kent Cooke Gibbs 2.0 = Gibbs - Cerrato - Dan Snyder Haynesworth is the last in a long series of stupid moves by the Redskins Front Office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polywog999 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 What about 40 years from now... when no one can remember anything about Shanahan? Whatever happens, Gibbs I and the greatness of the teams he coached, will forever live in my heart. If you guys who came around later can't see beyond the stats and the Nexus, what is that to me? Nothing. It's all about perception. Folks who were around for both eras will know considerably more than those who weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechalkoutlines Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 and i still believe if gibbs had stayed one more year they would have made a serious run for the super bowl in his last season. of course todd collins would have been playing qb as well. TC couldn't have led us to the Super Bowl. He got exposed to a legit pass rush in the Seattle game and got pummeled. But if we had Sean... Now that's a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angel2 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 You need several more head coaches to make the Redskins' Hallow Halls sacred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsCrushCowboys Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 completely separate...I am and always will be Gibbs guy, but I also recognize his glory years were a long time ago and the franchise needs a new dynasty and a leader to get us there. As much as I love JG, he is not comming back as the Redskins head coach, but I am happy to have been able to see him coach and win during his prime. I hope to see MS do the same. Hail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skns28 Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 This is a very IF-based thread idea, but I thought of this today, and thought it was interesting to think about...We all know and love Joe Gibbs, for what he has done for this organization. He's the guy even NON-skins fans respect and admire. That being said, we all know the effects of Gibbs 2.0... Selling the farm to move up and grab Campbell, shipping off Bailey for Portis and a 2nd, generally below-average drafting, plus so many other horrendous trades it's embarrassing to even think about it. Granted, Vinny had a part in some of these moves, but we all know that Gibbs was involved in them heavily as well. We've all pretty much concluded he was in a win-now attitude, but even that doesn't justify a lot of moves that were made. His results were 2 wild-card berths, and no playoff wins in 4 years. Not terrible, but not really great either, certainly nothing at all to be proud of. Skipping over the Zorn era, (:doh:) we now have Shanahan/Allen. I think that MS, like Gibbs, is in a win-now attitude, but he's doing it the right way. With the help of Allen, we are making quality deals, and with the recent Brown move, me may have actually committed our first act of Front-Office larceny. If MS over the next 4-5 years brings us back to being a legitimate Super Bowl contender, while at the same time building us up for the future and handpicking our next franchise QB, and possibly(hopefully) handing the team to Kyle....what would that do to Gibbs' legacy? You can't touch Gibbs 1.0... for obvious reasons, but wouldn't the above scenario turn Gibbs 2.0 from a promising but disappointing run, to an absolute disaster, and possibly even an era of Skins football that we would like to sweep under the rug along with Spurrier/Zorn/etc...? I think some of us already feel that way about 2.0, but don't want to admit it, because we (understandably) don't like the idea of trashing Gibbs. Wouldn't success with MS make 2.0 look much more like a failure than a...whatever it was? Many of you older guys here forget that most of the 20-something and younger Skins fans didn't live through Gibbs 1.0, and many of them hardly know anything about it. To them, Gibbs is guy who brought the Redskins to glory, and then failed when he tried again. followed by an embarrassing 4 year stretch. In the league of "What-have-you-done-for-me-lately", Gibbs hasn't done ANYTHING for them at all. What if MS brings us a Super Bowl win? We would, for the first time, have two different SB-winning Redskins coaches, each with 3 wings. The constant comparison's between the two would ineveitable. While it would be a HUGE task of Mike/Kyle Shanahan dethroning/sharing the throne with Gibbs as a Redskins legend, don't think that it's not possible. He has the chance to change our 4-12 embarrassment of a franchise, back to something a lot of us really havn't experienced. If you look up 1/7/2006 you will see that the 'Skins defeated Tampa Bay on Wild Card Weekend 17-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 The comparasion is between this Shanahan era and Gibbs 2.0 Gibbs 2.0, on the whole, was dissapointing considering the expectations Yes, the team became relevant again however there were no division titles or Superbowls. Part of it of course being the fault of Snyderatto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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