Would Shanahan's (potential) success affect Gibbs' legacy?

[allannis]

If Shanny wins 4 super bowls, it still would not effect Joe Gibbs legacy, what so ever..Gibbs is who put the Skins on the map, his legacy will last forever in the hearts and minds of TRUE Redskins fans

I'd have to say although we we didn't win a superbowl under him,George Allen put us on the map. Not to mention Vince Lombardi gave us our first winng season after not having one for 15 years.

[The Tris]

1. Those "malignant tumors", got us two playoff appearances in four years.

Woah guy, don't set the bar too high

2. Gibbs left us all our draft picks except the 4th rd pick (Duckett) for 2008.

But he also left us with a roster severly undermanned at WR, OL, and DL. Everytime he traded multiple picks for veterans, he left us with fewer chances to develop a roster that wasn't skin deep.

We had 21 draft picks over Gibbs four years. We had seven picks in the first four rounds of the draft from 2004-2007. Seven out of a possible 16. Terrible.

Even more amazing, we had ONE 2nd round pick, and ONE 3rd round pick during Gibbs 2.0. TOTAL. That is inexcusable...2nd and 3rd rounders are critical picks for a team to acquire starters on the cheap. AWFUL mismanagement of the draft.

I don't approve of that strategy either, but Gibbs made it work decently. The wheels fell off, particularly the O-Line in 2008, but again, that was after Gibbs left, and Vinny didn't address our needs at all that offeason before except pass catchers. Stop blaming Gibbs for stuff that happened after he left.

I don't want to get into a political debate, but that is akin to completely absolving a former leader for the situation another leader inherits. The blame should be shared, and you certainly can't ignore the steps taken that lead us to our current destination.

The moves Gibbs made led us to a sub-.500 record, but 2 playoff appearances in 4 years. Which was much better than we'd had since 1999.

Well I guess that relatively speaking, Gibbs 2.0 was a rousing success. I guess all Shanahan needs to do is to get us back to .500 with a couple of playoff appearances to be successful. Maybe one playoff win in the most offensively enept manner in NFL history as well.

Come on, don't settle for mediocrity.

Have you seen the age of the guys Shanny has traded for? Guarantee you those old guys won't last any longer than Gibbs' guys.

Well, the difference is that Shanny has thus far traded 3 picks for 2 players. A 33 year old QB and a 29 year old T. We'll see if his pace can keep up with Gibbs', but he has a ways to go. I don't expect McNabb to last more than four years, and it remains to be seen what role Brown will have long term, but you can not compare 2 signings to Gibbs multiple draft picks for vets trades.

EDIT: From Dan Steinberg today (6/23), picks for veterans past decade:

Gibbs:

August 2007: Traded a fourth-round pick for G Pete Kendall.

August 2006: Traded a third-round pick and a fourth-round pick for RB T.J. Duckett.

March 2006: Traded a third-round pick and a fourth-round pick for WR Brandon Lloyd.

March 2004: Traded a fifth-round pick for WR James Thrash.

March 2004: Traded CB Champ Bailey and a second-round pick for RB Clinton Portis.

March 2004: Traded a third-round pick for QB Mark Brunell.

Shanahan:

June 2010: Traded either a third- or fourth-round pick for OT Jammal Brown.

April 2010: Traded a second-round pick and either a third- or fourth-round pick for QB Donovan McNabb.

Gibbs strong suit was coaching, but he drafted much better than when Vinny/Danny/Spurrier were calling the shots before, and much better than Vinny called the shots afterwards.

Why do you think that Snyder stuck with Campbell so long? Why do you think he focused our coaching hire post-Gibbs on finding a coach to help Campbell get over the hump? Could it possible be that a highly respected member of the Redskins family, the guy who traded multiple draft picks to get him, influenced the decision to keep giving Campbell shots?

Look, no matter what you think of JC, he failed in DC, and that was probably one of the biggest moves of Gibbs' second tenure. Campbell was Gibbs' guy, much like McNabb is Shanahan's guy.

Further more, of his 21 draft picks, only 10 ever saw the field, and only 7 remain with the team today (4 starters: Cooley, Rogers, McIntosh, Landry). Of course, our inability to draft effeciently has been an issue for years, as only 8 projected starters for the upcoming season (previous 4 and Dockery, Thomas, Orakpo and Williams) were actually drafted by us. Gibbs was just more of the same in that department.

Look, this doesn't change the way that I feel about Joe Gibbs. But to say his hands are clean in the mess that was 2009 is incredibly short sighted and naive.

[KevinthePRF]

Gibbs 1.0 funneled through Bobby Bethard, Gibbs 2.0 funneled through Vinny Cerrato. So, no. Case closed.

[tibbidoe]

I think that Gibbs would be held in a higher regard (despite the 2.0) even if Mike Shanahan or any other coach were to win an equal number of titles while he is here.

Shanahan is a known quantity having made his name before getting to D.C. (Sound familiar?). Gibbs made his name with the Redskins. He didn't make his start with us, but he grew into the great coach that be became while he was here.

It seems to me that no matter how successful we are with Shanahan at the helm, Gibbs will still be considered "better" in the hearts of fans who understand the whole history of the team, not just the recent years.

[allannis]

Gibbs won our first superbowl, we all know you only have one first.As far as i know this was Joe Gibbs first head coaching job,and he won a superbowl his second year so it didn't take him long to grow.

[mikemac9]

Gibbs 2.0 affected the Gibbs legacy, in that he brought too many guys in and not enough young minds. I didn't want to recycle another old head coach, but by bringing in his son, a fresh coaching mind I think Shanny has a better shot. Plus Shanny said himself he studied other teams and is evolving his skills... HTTR

[HailGreen28]

Woah guy, don't set the bar too high

LOL. All I'm saying is, Gibbs made us respectable again, and left us better than he found us. He was no slouch in his second stint here.

But he also left us with a roster severly undermanned at WR, OL, and DL. Everytime he traded multiple picks for veterans, he left us with fewer chances to develop a roster that wasn't skin deep.

We had 21 draft picks over Gibbs four years. We had seven picks in the first four rounds of the draft from 2004-2007. Seven out of a possible 16. Terrible.

Even more amazing, we had ONE 2nd round pick, and ONE 3rd round pick during Gibbs 2.0. TOTAL. That is inexcusable...2nd and 3rd rounders are critical picks for a team to acquire starters on the cheap. AWFUL mismanagement of the draft.

Gibbs went free agency instead of draft. Shanny's traded away at least as much this year as an average year in Gibbs 2.0. I don't like the approach either, but with JG it was the first whiff of success we had since 1999.

I don't want to get into a political debate, but that is akin to completely absolving a former leader for the situation another leader inherits. The blame should be shared, and you certainly can't ignore the steps taken that lead us to our current destination.

True. But when the current administration does absolutely nothing to address the problems you cited (and no Thomas and Kelly haven't panned out yet), and throws out the career people at the top (Williams and Saunders) to put their own guys in, they have only themselves to blame if it all goes to pot.

Far as Presidential pols go, I try to remember a President's policies (esp. budget stuff) take at least a year to take effect. An NFL Front Office's changes are effective that season.

Well I guess that relatively speaking, Gibbs 2.0 was a rousing success. I guess all Shanahan needs to do is to get us back to .500 with a couple of playoff appearances to be successful. Maybe one playoff win in the most offensively enept manner in NFL history as well.

Come on, don't settle for mediocrity.

If Shanny cleans things up around here after the Vinny/Zorn debacle, like Gibbs did with the Danny/Vinny/Spurrier debacle, he'll deserve praise. Not saying the ultimate goal isn't to win the SB, but improvement is always welcome. And it's nice not to be the laughingstock of the division.

Well, the difference is that Shanny has thus far traded 3 picks for 2 players. A 33 year old QB and a 29 year old T. We'll see if his pace can keep up with Gibbs', but he has a ways to go. I don't expect McNabb to last more than four years, and it remains to be seen what role Brown will have long term, but you can not compare 2 signings to Gibbs multiple draft picks for vets trades.

EDIT: From Dan Steinberg today (6/23), picks for veterans past decade:

Gibbs:

August 2007: Traded a fourth-round pick for G Pete Kendall.

August 2006: Traded a third-round pick and a fourth-round pick for RB T.J. Duckett.

March 2006: Traded a third-round pick and a fourth-round pick for WR Brandon Lloyd.

March 2004: Traded a fifth-round pick for WR James Thrash.

March 2004: Traded CB Champ Bailey and a second-round pick for RB Clinton Portis.

March 2004: Traded a third-round pick for QB Mark Brunell.

Shanahan:

June 2010: Traded either a third- or fourth-round pick for OT Jammal Brown.

April 2010: Traded a second-round pick and either a third- or fourth-round pick for QB Donovan McNabb.

Not counting Carriker, where we just swapped picks, by your count Shanny has EXCEEDED Gibbs' rate so far. (I'm surprised myself)

Gibbs in 4 Years: 7 picks traded, 5 agents signed (seeing CP-CB as a swap)

Shanny in 1 Year: 3 picks traded, 2 agents signed.

Why do you think that Snyder stuck with Campbell so long? Why do you think he focused our coaching hire post-Gibbs on finding a coach to help Campbell get over the hump? Could it possible be that a highly respected member of the Redskins family, the guy who traded multiple draft picks to get him, influenced the decision to keep giving Campbell shots?

Look, no matter what you think of JC, he failed in DC, and that was probably one of the biggest moves of Gibbs' second tenure. Campbell was Gibbs' guy, much like McNabb is Shanahan's guy.

Further more, of his 21 draft picks, only 10 ever saw the field, and only 7 remain with the team today (4 starters: Cooley, Rogers, McIntosh, Landry). Of course, our inability to draft effeciently has been an issue for years, as only 8 projected starters for the upcoming season (previous 4 and Dockery, Thomas, Orakpo and Williams) were actually drafted by us. Gibbs was just more of the same in that department.

Look, this doesn't change the way that I feel about Joe Gibbs. But to say his hands are clean in the mess that was 2009 is incredibly short sighted and naive.

Oh, you'll get no argument from me that keeping Candle as the starter was one of the worst mistakes Gibbs made here, LOL.

'Course, considering Danny dumped Gibbs' assistant coaches immediately after he left, the Zorn/Candle experiment 2008/2009 is solely on Danny/Vinny's shoulders. Rumor is, and I believe it, Saunders wanted to keep Collins as our starter in 2008.

50% overall draft hit rate is pretty good, and when you compare Gibbs' draft studs (Taylor, Cooley, Rogers, Landry) they compare favorably to our other recent drafts. Since Gibbs, the only studs we've gotten are Rak and hopefully Davis. We're disappointed lately by Landry and Rogers lately, but they've had as good success Rak and Davis had. For a time, Landry was filling in for ST very well at FS, to the point he was feared by guys like Plexico B. And Rogers was our #1 corner and when he got well he did a good job shutting down other teams #1 till middle 2008. Really only Orakpo can compare, since then.

You made a great post and great points, Tris. I just disagree with your conclusions. That going from the NFCE cellar to 2 playoff appearances in 4 years is a failure. And that Joe Jackson Gibbs bears ANY responsibility for the Vinny Cerrato circus, after JG left and his assistants were fired, they were a playoff team in 2007, and the team did have a good start in 2008.

Hail!

[The Tris]

You made a great post and great points, Tris. I just disagree with your conclusions. That going from the NFCE cellar to 2 playoff appearances in 4 years is a failure. And that Joe Jackson Gibbs bears ANY responsibility for the Vinny Cerrato circus, after JG left and his assistants were fired, they were a playoff team in 2007, and the team did have a good start in 2008.

Hail!

Fair enough. I think that in the short term, Gibbs managed to right a sinking ship, but ultimately, as "righting the ship" was going from laughing stock to a middling team, what he did was costly in the long run.

If his moves had produced more than they did, it would be easier to accept bottoming out this past season. But in the end, Gibbs mortgaged the long term quality of our roster for a 1-2 record in the playoffs. That is not a very good ROI, and the effects were felt after he left. Though I will grant that they became more pronounced without his presence.