Helen Thomas: Jews should leave Palestine, go back to Germany and Poland

[MEANDWARF]

Maybe Helan Thomas is the antichrist, not Obama.

[Predicto]

Henry and Burgold, I think JMS was making a good point (of course, in typical JMS fashion).

I DO think that it is interesting that Helen Thomas is being lambasted by everyone (including me) for saying something that is, in essence, the same thing as what the Foreign Minister of Israel also says.

Yes, it is wrong when Helen Thomas says it, but many of the people in this thread are fervent and unquestioning defenders of Israel, no matter what it does with regards to the Palestinians. It's just kind of odd that they get so outraged by Helen Thomas, but appear to have no concern with her mirror image in the Israeli Foreign Minister. Indeed, many of our posters pretty much agree with Lieberman, and have said things like "The Palestinians lost - survival of the fittest" or "Why don't the Arab countries just take all the Palestinians?" etc.

Somehow, that is a perfectly reasonable attitude for Americans to take, yet Helen Thomas needs to be thrown under the bus immediately.

Without defending Thomas in any way, don't you kind of find that... odd?

[Dan T.]

I haven't seen it mentioned here... Helen Thomas is of Lebanese descent. Her parents were immigrants to the U.S. from Tripoli, Lebanon.

Not bringing this up as an excuse, but it does seem germane to what her position has been regarding that part of the world.

[Predicto]

.

You are saying,

"I'm glad Thomas is speaking up b/c Israelis say filthy things too."

Actually, I think what he is saying is:

"It's interesting how many people in the US are outraged at Thomas but don't care that Israeli policy toward the Palestinians is being driven by someone with much the same sentiments."

It's not moral equivalency. I don't think he is "glad" Thomas spoke up. I know I'm not. I think Thomas should be drummed out immediately.

It's a comment on selective outrage on the part of most of America, that reserves its outrage ONLY for Thomas, while Lieberman (and Netanyahu) not only get a free pass, but get unequivocal support. :whoknows:

[Henry]

Henry and Burgold, I think JMS was making a good point (of course, in typical JMS fashion).

I DO think that it is interesting that Helen Thomas is being lambasted by everyone (including me) for saying something that is, in essence, the same thing as what the Foreign Minister of Israel also says.

Yes, it is wrong when Helen Thomas says it, but many of the people in this thread are fervent and unquestioning defenders of Israel, no matter what it does with regards to the Palestinians. It's just kind of odd that they get so outraged by Helen Thomas, but appear to have no concern with her mirror image in the Israeli Foreign Minister. Indeed, many of our posters pretty much agree with Lieberman, and have said things like "The Palestinians lost - survival of the fittest" or "Why don't the Arab countries just take all the Palestinians?" etc.

Somehow, that is a perfectly reasonable attitude for Americans to take, yet Helen Thomas needs to be thrown under the bus immediately.

Without defending Thomas in any way, don't you kind of find that... odd?

Predicto,

He specifically responded to MY post. And I am not a blind follower of Israel. I don't see Israel getting a free pass in this country. Did anyone esle read the debates raging in the threads about blockade runners? Everyone in those threads are blindly following Israel? Really?

What we have in this country, as mirrored by those threads, is a healthy debate. JMS is staunchly perched on one side of that debate. Fine. But to suggest that that debate doesn't exist because we are mad at Helen Thomas and not at one of the hundreds of radical people saying radical crap in the middle east ... that's frickin nonsense. And it's insulting.

[Predicto]

Predicto,

He specifically responded to MY post. And I am not a blind follower of Israel.

That's what I meant by "in typical JMS fashion."

Helen Thomas suggested sending Jews to Poland, a country where there were 3.5 million Jews in 1939 and 50,000 Jews in 1945, and Germany, the country responsible for those murders as well as millions of others. She referred to those countries as Jewish homelands.

As insensitive as "Why don't the Arab countries just take all the Palestinians" may be, there is NO equivalency there.

I'm not talking about moral equivalency, and I don't think JMS is either. What Thomas said is horribly offensive and I'm not defending it. I'm talking about the fact that America has taken sides, and only has ears for horribly offensive attitudes IF they are negative toward Israel.

That's a problem. It explains a lot of how people on this board view the overall situation over there, IMO.

[Burgold]

That's what I meant by "in typical JMS fashion."

I'm not talking about moral equivalency, and I don't think JMS is either. .

Do you think what hellen Thomas said is more stupid than what Lieberman has said?

I think they are equally stupid...

**** that, Predicto. You don't think he's talking about equivalency because he called it ****ing EQUAL.

[aREDSKIN]

Helen Retires.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ Banner nothing more right now.

[Henry]

I'm not talking about moral equivalency, and I don't think JMS is either. What Thomas said is horribly offensive and I'm not defending it. I'm talking about the fact that America has taken sides, and only has ears for horribly offensive attitudes IF they are negative toward Israel.

That's a problem. It explains a lot of how people on this board view the overall situation over there, IMO.

Israel is an ally and is going to get preferential treatment over non-allies. That's life.

But let's not pretend there is no debate in this country on the level of support we should be giving them. Let's not pretend that moves Israel makes aren't scrutinized and parsed out and examined to see whether or not they are the good guys or the bad guys in any given situation. That's all we do.

[Burgold]

Helen Retires.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ Banner nothing more right now.

Sad day actually, but what she said was reprehensible. I think she understood that. I also believe she probably also honestly regrets it even though a part of her really meant it. She played an important and useful role as a reporter and did some admirable work.

I don't know what this does to her legacy. I suspect it blows over sooner than later, but for the short term she has really blackened her own eye and revealed a very sad aspect of her being.

[Predicto]

**** that, Predicto. You don't think he's talking about equivalency because he called it ****ing EQUAL.

I guess I was trying to save what I considered a good point, one that was being hurt by the way JMS was presenting it. One that is likely to get lost in all the anger.

I'm sorry if I offended you or any other Jewish people on this board - that was not my intention.

[Predicto]

Helen Retires.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ Banner nothing more right now.

Good.

[Predicto]

Israel is an ally and is going to get preferential treatment over non-allies. That's life.

But let's not pretend there is no debate in this country on the level of support we should be giving them. Let's not pretend that moves Israel makes aren't scrutinized and parsed out and examined to see whether or not they are the good guys or the bad guys in any given situation. That's all we do.

Yes. Some of us do.

However, a good chunk of America (and this message board) doesn't even pretend that it is trying to do that.

[Burgold]

I guess I was trying to save what I considered a good point, one that was being hurt by the way JMS was presenting it. One that is likely to get lost in all the anger.

I'm sorry if I offended you or any other Jewish people on this board - that was not my intention.

Having been raised by a Holocaust survivor (actually two since my Mom came out it as well though she was only two at the time) and seeing how it embittered and impacted the entirety of their lives and who they are I am sensitive to this topic.

I guess I just hate hate and I would rather us stop playing the let's all be reasonable and try to blame everyone game and condemn those that act viley. Whether they be in words or deeds. Whether they be an Olberman or a Limbaugh. Whether they be a Thomas or a Lieberman.

But there is no reason to always have to stop and play the damned two wrongs game every time. It's okay to condemn something said instead of finding ways to gray it out or contextualize it.

Sometimes stupid is stupid. Sometimes crazy is crazy. Sometimes wrong is wrong.

And you don't have to bend over backwards to look at the other side and make sure everything is "fair"

If the other needs to be said, then find a forum to say it and if you're right I will condemn that too. I will rally against it. And I would hope all would.

[Predicto]

Having been raised by a Holocaust survivor (actually two since my Mom came out it as well though she was only two at the time) and seeing how it embittered and impacted the entirety of their lives and who they are I am sensitive to this topic.

I guess I just hate hate and I would rather us stop playing the let's all be reasonable and try to blame everyone game and condemn those that act viley. Whether they be in words or deeds. Whether they be an Olberman or a Limbaugh. Whether they be a Thomas or a Lieberman.

But there is no reason to always have to stop and play the damned two wrongs game every time. It's okay to condemn something said instead of finding ways to gray it out or contextualize it.

Sometimes stupid is stupid. Sometimes crazy is crazy. Sometimes wrong is wrong.

And you don't have to bend over backwards to look at the other side and make sure everything is "fair"

If the other needs to be said, then find a forum to say it and if you're right I will condemn that too. I will rally against it. And I would hope all would.

Fair enough.

[Burgold]

I also got about an hour of sleep yesterday, so I may be punchy.

[Predicto]

I also got about an hour of sleep yesterday, so I may be punchy.

And I'm doing my usual contrarian thing, so I may be punchable.

[THEREALTOR1]

And I'm doing my usual contrarian thing, so I may be punchable.

Finally a post I can agree with

[Henry]

Yes. Some of us do.

However, a good chunk of America (and this message board) doesn't even pretend that it is trying to do that.

Like I said, it's a debate. There are some on both sides who refuse to concede a point.

I have a quick question.

Since Israel is run by people who think all Muslims should be forcibly removed from Israel ... why haven't they done it?

[NavyDave]

Well Helen Thomas has announced her Retirement just now. Ciao!!!

[NavyDave]

You're a bigot. Nobody listens to you. Go away.

Really? So a black guy who doesn't play the its "whitey's" fault card or doesn't think he is successful because of luck or some leftwing policies is a bigot? Or is it because I don't follow the company line that the snivelers, now called tolerance formerly known as lowering moral standards or blaming America first??

Nobody listens to me? When did you and the "tolerant challenged" change your names to NO Body?

[Predicto]

Like I said, it's a debate. There are some on both sides who refuse to concede a point.

I have a quick question.

Since Israel is run by people who think all Muslims should be forcibly removed from Israel ... why haven't they done it?

Two reasons. First, Israel technically isn't it isn't "run" by people who think that. However, the smaller party that is key to Likud's governing coalition does believe that, and Likud itself is not far off.

Second, if they tried to do anything that overt and drastic, they likely would lose the next election. So they do what they can - like expand the settlements.

The result is the same for the Palestinians. They get no closer to a state of their own, and the land and water that they might put a state on shrinks more and more.

Wait - did you want a serious answer?

[Predicto]

Really? So a black guy who doesn't play the its "whitey's" fault card or doesn't think he is successful because of luck or some leftwing policies is a bigot? Or is it because I don't follow the company line that the snivelers, now call tolerance formerly known as lowering moral standards or blaming America first??

Read that a few times. Still doesn't make sense.

[JMS]

Amen. And if we want to compare crazy rhetoric between the leaders of Hamas and the leaders of Israel. Guess how much we are going to accomplish. Zilch. It's time to stop worrying about equivalency and condemn horrific acts and statements.

Hams is a terrorist organization. It's pretty silly to let Hamas set the bar of acceptable behavior for Israeli politicians as you suggest.

On the other hand I think it's perfectly resonable to compare a main stream Israeli political figure, prominent member of the current government, arguable the most influential man in Israeli policics has said, and what is acceptable for an American journalist to say.... Espeically when what they are saying is pretty damned close to each other/inverted.....

You want to say Hellen Thomas is a racist boob who's views should be condemned and drumbed out of public view..... That should pretty much drive your opinion of Netanyahu's government too then. That is only however if you have any sort of objectivity, perspective, or morals.

Unless, you think the Jews should be sent backinto Germany and maybe take a short stroll into an oven. Which I know is not what you are thinking, but when you make allowances and excuses for Thomas and whether you mean to or not you are by trying for this faux "equivalency" that is indeed the argument you are shouting to many ears.

I don't even think that's the message Thomas was saying. today their aren't any ovens in Germany. Germany is a pretty strong Israeli ally, just like the United States is. I don't believe any Israeli or Jew traveling to Germany would face systemic overt racism from that country.

I think what makes the thomas statement so offensive is it questions the right of Jews to the lands of Israel... Not some vague refference to the holicoust. I think Hellen is guilty of the former, not the later.

You are saying,

"I'm glad Thomas is speaking up b/c Israelis say filthy things too."

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.

It isn't helpful, it isn't constructive, and it isn't cool. Just like comparing Obama or Bush to Hitler isn't constructive, helpful or cool. Stop finding ways to mitigate what they are saying and thereby excuse them.

I don't think Hellen Thomas's words need to be excused. I don't think they refferenced the holicost what so ever. She opennly questioned the rights of Israelis jewish miniority to live in Israel, just like many jewish Israeli's are questioning the rights of Israel's Arab majority to live there. Her statement might ultimately be unhelpful, but her statement is what passes for a moderate topical solution in Israeli territory today.

Thankfully not a majority position, but clearly not an opinion which needs to be excused inside of any Israeli political discussion.

You can't include a guy like Lieberman in your government like BeBe Netanyahu did, and act all outraged when Helen Thomas speaks her mind. Israel gave up that right when BeBe Invited Lieberman into his government.

That's what I'm saying.

Neither side is helpful, neither side is practical, neither side is even a majority veiw.... But it's certainly not a view which requires an appology in Israel today.

[NavyDave]

Read that a few times. Still doesn't make sense.

Hmm yeah, many liberals or extreme leftwing minority types would call a black guy who is known for those things as being more of a sell out or uncle tom, instead of a bigot.