SLT: The Tea Party's Toxic Take on History

[Burgold]

And again, if the Israeli's destroyed your house and you and you're family were innocent, but happened to live near a terrorist and then Iraq gave the terrorist's family 35,000 and you nothing or as listed in the article 10 K, but you've lost exactly the same ammount... what message does that send?

It was a standing policy that Iraq paid martyr's families more than innocent families who've suffered the same.

Finally, amongst a myriad of other reasons... does it seem at all odd that the number of homocide bombing attacks dropped since Sadam's ouster and they switched to rocket attacks? Interesting, that as the pay fell out the willing to sacrifice oneself lessened (although, clearly it hasn't disappeared altogether and Israel has worked hard to try to prevent these attacks)

This conversation probably belongs in another thread. The tea party aren't terrorists... yet.

[JMS]

I agree with most everything here, but I do believe that using terms like Nazi, tyrant etc are thrown around all too readily by both sides.

I wouldn't equate Bush with Hitler or his neocons with the Nazi's. I do think their policies flirted with the boundaries of fascism. I do think they demonstrated again and again that they believed the ends justified the means. They clearly thought nothing about deceiving the American people. They clearly abused the trust and faith the nation put into them after 9/11 in order to pursue their own agenda.

[Kilmer17]

This I'll agree to. However, I don't see you critiquing both sides, only excusing bad behavior of those on the Right by pointing to other bad behavior of those on the Left.

Then you arent reading this thread.

Some of my posts-

"I think people comparing Obama to Hitler are the second dumbest group of people in America. But the group that thinks the Tea Party movement is somehow represented by, or dominated by those people are the most dumbest (grammar error for effect)."

"Im certain that their is a minority of you that actually believes Bush lied. Probably the same percentage that thinks Obama was born in Africa, or that Obama is Hitler, or that Bush knew about 9/11. All of those views are moronic."

[JMS]

And again, if the Israeli's destroyed your house and you and you're family were innocent, but happened to live near a terrorist and then Iraq gave the terrorist's family 35,000 and you nothing or as listed in the article 10 K, but you've lost exactly the same ammount... what message does that send?

It's not rational argument for trying to analyze the Iraqi's motivation. One father dies in a car accident... A drunk driver hits him broad side. What message does it say to his family that Obama attended the funeral of the West Virginia miners, but not their fathers funeral?

Obama is reacting and trying to send a message unrelated to drunk drivers victems. Likewise the Iraqi's had a special program to address what they and many believe is an unjust blanket Israeli program.

It was a standing policy that Iraq paid martyr's families more than innocent families who've suffered the same.

As long as they are giving money after the fact, to innocent people who are suffering from no fault of their own; I don't think it can be catorigized as "supporting terrorism" in any shape or form. Clearly not by the laws of this country, or the laws of most of the countries on earth.

Finally, amongst a myriad of other reasons... does it seem at all odd that the number of homocide bombing attacks dropped since Sadam's ouster and they switched to rocket attacks? Interesting, that as the pay fell out the willing to sacrifice oneself lessened (although, clearly it hasn't disappeared altogether and Israel has worked hard to try to prevent these attacks)

Did you notice that oil prices also are down... the US Stock market was down, but now is back up... US home prices are down.... Also Steve Irwin died....

Iraq was never a sponsor of Palistinian terrorism... Iraqi aid was likewise never a significant part of Palistinian aid. I'm pretty sure Iranian aid on the other hand has significantly increased since the days of Sadam.

This conversation probably belongs in another thread. The tea party aren't terrorists... yet.

Sure thing...

[JMS]

Why pay in gold when silver or even copper would do? You only have to look to America to find people who are willing to kill for less than a million bucks. Heck, we've all read stories where people agreed to murder for a hundred bucks. More, you've admitted that this promise of reward is entering a climate of resentment and anger. That makes the lure of blood money that much more potent.

I'm unaware of any american who was willing to kill for for a hundred bucks, given post mordum to be split by his parents, bothers and sisters in echange for their livelyhood, family homes, and all their worldly possessions.

I don't see how that could be considered "blood money" or incentive.

I think the families would gladly pay the money to Israel in exchange for their homes, jobs, and goods. I think both you and I would too.

[Burgold]

You don't think you could find some desperate drug addict today who's broke and in need a fix and if you offered them a hundred bucks and a gun you wouldn't find at least one taker?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I wouldn't equate Bush with Hitler or his neocons with the Nazi's. I do think their policies flirted with the boundaries of fascism. I do think they demonstrated again and again that they believed the ends justified the means. They clearly thought nothing about deceiving the American people. They clearly abused the trust and faith the nation put into them after 9/11 in order to pursue their own agenda.

Agreed, but that doesn't look nearly as good on a protest sign I guess. LOL

[AsburySkinsFan]

Then you arent reading this thread.

You're right, but why not straight out of the gate? Why not immediately state, "these people are stupid and are speaking recklessly, just like the idiots who do the same on the Left" right from the start?

[JMS]

You don't think you could find some desperate drug addict today who's broke and in need a fix and if you offered them a hundred bucks and a gun you wouldn't find at least one taker?

Maybe but that's not really the context.

Do you think you could find some desperate drug addict in need of a fix and you could get him to blow himself up on the promise you would give his family some money?

A small sum of money in exchange for everything his family has and has accumulated in their lifetimes... Everything which allows them to continue to take care of themselves?

$20k is far less than a child; much less a child and all what Israel takes from the families of terrorists.

[Burgold]

I absolutely do. Given what I have studied in psychology it's not that hard at all for people to be convinced to do absolutely crazy things. On a simpler level, how many theives will steal to feed their families? How many people will kill in defense of their families? Look at gangs in America who convince each other to do drive bys? Those terrorists do it for what? And the reprisals? People do assinine things all the time for belief or anger and if you add a little adrenaline and the promise of money...?

Heck, look at the TV show Fear Factor, look how many people would do such idiotic, crazy stunts for 50 k (or whatever it was) or consume such insane things or take on their phobias for a reasonably trivial ammount of money.

If you can get it in your head that you are defending your family and harming those who are hurting your enemies AND your friends will be renumerated for your act of "heroism" or "martyrdom" that might be enough to push someone over the edge.

And remember, the only homocide bomber who surrendered and was caught alive turned out to be mentally retarded. That plays into it as well.

[JMS]

If you can get it in your head that you are defending your family and harming those who are hurting your enemies AND your friends will be remunerated for your act of "heroism" or "martyrdom" that might be enough to push someone over the edge.

I totally agree with you that suicide bombers have some sort of whacked out logic for rationalizing their crime. I just don't think the payment from Iraq, the US or the EU entered into their psychosis.

Israel has made a controversial blanket decision to pursecute their families in order to disuade such attacks. The Iraqi's made a decision to partially mitigate this pursecution with a contribution.

[Burgold]

Are you suggesting that you understand their insanity that fully and that your mind works in such a parallel way that you can be sure of all their motivations?

[JMS]

Are you suggesting that you understand their insanity that fully and that your mind works in such a parallel way that you can be sure of all their motivations?

No but I understand the concept of reward and punishment. I also feel I am in a position to judge whether the reward eclipses the punishment and visa versa.

If Israel did nothing to these families, and Iraq gave them a contribution after the fact it would be very shaky to prove a causality relationship. When you add Israel's actions into the equation the causality is even flimsier.

[Burgold]

Chicken and the egg, my friend. We can go back thousands of years. I think doing that is as logical as being a Tea Party member and shouting that Obama is a communist Nazi.

[Baculus]

Yeah Obama is only Guilty by association. Its not his fault alot of his friends and people in his cabinet and former business dealings embrace socialist principles or are actually members of a communist party.

Such as? Please demonstrate that A LOT of his friends "embrace socialist principles or are actually members of a communist party." I have a feeling this number is going to be a lot smaller than you believe.

And its just a coincidence that stealing our money err wealth redistribution is similar to other regimes but to be fair Hitler, according to Marge Schott did create an outstanding highway system and liberals here in the USA, laud Castro for the literacy of the Cuban population. :doh:

I would predict that you don't have many negative feelings when the wealth redistribution is UPWARDS, as in into the coffers of the top 1% wealth holders in the U.S. After all, wages for the working class haven't increased that much over the last decade, while the gap -- the wealth divide -- between the wealthy and everyone else continues to increase.

As Warren Buffet said, "It's class warfare, my class is winning, but they shouldn't be."

It's strange, though, how right-wingers embrace wealth redistribution as long as it doesn't go to help the poor. The wealthy? It's America, baby! Wall Street is awesome! But when it comes to the poor? "Communism!"

So much for social justice -- oh wait, I forgot: That is communism as well.

BTW, Ronald Reagan supported the EIC, so I guess since he supports this regressive tax, he is a communist as well, right?

So for the time being it be ok to make "Death of a President part two" and the liberal media will have the same lack of outrage when its about Obama as it was with Bush?

Such sentiments were not part of the mainstream American liberal movement. Even in my most "anti-Bush" periods, and I am still critical of Bush, I NEVER wish death upon him. But hey, we've had people threaten bloodshed over HEALTH CARE, of all things, and we have already seen evidence of violent from the Right, so we'll see what happens over the next few years, eh?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Baculus don't sweat NavyDave if he thinks that Obama is a socialist because it only goes to show that he doesn't have any idea what a real socialist is.

[The 12th Commandment]

Baculus don't sweat NavyDave if he thinks that Obama is a socialist because it only goes to show that he doesn't have any idea what a real socialist is.

I don't think that's the case at all, it's a disingenuous smear tactic.

[Burgold]

Yeah, it's a poisoning the well tactic. Very few of the people who say Obama is like Hitler actually believe that. However, what they do think is if they make that comparison then people will think.

Well, clearly he's not Hitler, but Gosh, Obama must be really bad if people are comparing him to him. They're just trying to through repetition and hyperbole trying to make people hate or at least distrust and dislike.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't think that's the case at all, it's a disingenuous smear tactic.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt...strange as it may seems calling someone ignorant of something seems better than calling them a malicious smear campaigner.

[The 12th Commandment]

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt...strange as it may seems calling someone ignorant of something seems better than calling them a malicious smear campaigner.

Well, in NDs defense, he didn't come up with the tactic!

[thebluefood]

I was really on board with the whole Tea Party movement when it first started. I don't think Obama is a socialist or a Marxist or anything of the sort; but I am against anyone that wants to expand the size of the federal government. Bush did it and Obama is doing it now.

But,as is the case with most political or social movements, they allowed the fringe members to take control and now the movement has become an extension of the Republican Party.

Also, where were these people when Bush was blowing up the power and size of the Federal Government like a "Moon Bounce?"

The whole movement gave me a lot of false hope and though I like their core principals, it's become too extremist and I will have none of that.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Also, where were these people when Bush was blowing up the power and size of the Federal Government like a "Moon Bounce?"

That's what a lot of us have been asking for awhile now, but apparently there was a mass repentance from big government spending, and the experts who do studies on these matters have found that this mass repentance seems to be focused on November 4th, 2008. They are still trying to figure out what connection that date has with this phenomenon.

[Burgold]

That mass repentence is easy to claim, but hard to believe.

[Baculus]

That's what a lot of us have been asking for awhile now, but apparently there was a mass repentance from big government spending, and the experts who do studies on these matters have found that this mass repentance seems to be focused on November 4th, 2008. They are still trying to figure out what connection that date has with this phenomenon.

Yeah, isn't that weird? I wonder what happened on that date . . . I just can't quite put my finger on it.

Oh, I know! It's the day American died and we became a communist-fascist-Marxist-socialist-Muslim dictatorship! Silly me.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I was really on board with the whole Tea Party movement when it first started. I don't think Obama is a socialist or a Marxist or anything of the sort; but I am against anyone that wants to expand the size of the federal government. Bush did it and Obama is doing it now.

But,as is the case with most political or social movements, they allowed the fringe members to take control and now the movement has become an extension of the Republican Party.

Also, where were these people when Bush was blowing up the power and size of the Federal Government like a "Moon Bounce?"

The whole movement gave me a lot of false hope and though I like their core principals, it's become too extremist and I will have none of that.

I feel sorry for you and people like you. And for liberterians and Paul-ites. While I don't agree with you all on much, I do think the country would be a lot better place if they were the right wing, the second party, and not this disgrace that is the GOP and its base. At least there is logic, reason and rationality with you all--open minds open to real debates about the role of government and the future of the country. None of this, OMGZ Obama is a CommuNazi and anyone who is open to comprimise with him is a traitor to the nation.