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We don't need one offensive lineman we need 3 or 4


bedlamVR

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I think that this is a great thread that allows rational thinking in other threads. I am of the belief that 2 or more O-Linemen are needed. If you look at every position, offensive and defensive, while also looking at depth, we have our biggest needs on the O-Line at our Lt and Rt positions. It will be hard to throw or run without good starters in these spots.

Regardless of whether you are ok with Campbell for now or want to draft a rookie, the QB is going to need time to throw. Portis, Johnson and/or a new rookie will need running lanes and a good push from an improved O-Line. I believe we can get by with what we already have at most of our team positions but the two Tackle spots have to get better this year. We might get lucky drafting starters later in the 4th, 5th or even 7th rounds but we have a higher probability of getting starter quality guys in the 1st and 2nd. Since we need at least two, we should get those two as soon as we can. I also think that depth would be a good thing to consider on the O-Line. As we all witnessed last year, injuries happen and then the season goes in the crapper real quick. I think we should draft O-Line in the 4th or 5th maybe even both if the value is there. For those of you that want to get O-Linemen later, those guys will still be there. If they are good enough to start then great, we now have more starter quality players competing for jobs in camp.

I’m sure there will still be those that disagree about how many O-Linemen to draft, when to draft them and who to draft. For the sake of discussion, look at our projected O-Line depth chart. How does what you are suggesting pan out in game time? Someone has to block the D-Lines in our division. There aren’t any easy games there for our new O-Line. Once again I believe we need a good LT and RT (THIS YEAR)!!!!

So barring something unimaginable like Orakpo falling to us at the 13th spot like last year, or some other player that has way too much value to pass up from our 2nd rounder on, I say draft to improve our O-Line this year. I’m not for trading up this year. (This also includes trading next year’s picks for this year’s draft. Even though I would consider trading next year’s 2nd + this year’s 2nd and 4th to move into the late 1st for Bradford or Clausen. But that’s not happening now is it?)

This is what I would do if I were calling the shots. At our #4, I would take Bulaga or Okung whichever was still available and in that order. With our 2nd rounder at #37, I would take Bruce Campbell, Charles Brown, Rodger Saffold or trade down some to get more picks, whichever was still there and in that order. The idea in the 2nd is still to get a good O-Lineman. If we could trade down, I would consider Mike Johnson, John Jerry, or Jared Veldheer later in the 2nd to mid 3rd. With our 4th, I like Kyle Calloway, Ciron Black or Mitch Petrus. Throughout the draft there are clearly other guys available that I haven’t mentioned but I’m trying to realistically end up with both a starting LT and RT with a quality backup for one of the O-Line positions. From the 5th on I would go BPA with an eye still for value on the O-Line but not exclusively. I also believe these picks to be realistic in where they can be drafted but only the real draft will tell for sure. I’m sure at least one of these guys will be available where I have them…

1st @ #4 (Bulaga or Okung)

2nd @ #37 (Bruce Campbell, Charles Brown, Rodger Saffold or trade down)

in a trade down from 2nd ??? (Mike Johnson, John Jerry, or Jared Veldheer)

4th @ #104 (Kyle Calloway, Ciron Black or Mitch Petrus)

Regardless of whether we get a QB this year or next, we have to get better with our O-Line starters and backups. This is how I see our new O-Line this year if my drafts holds true.

LT: Bulaga, Saffold (Starter to be determined in camp), Hicks as short term backup

LG: Dockery, Lichtensteiger, Fanaika (Backups to be determined)

C: Rabach, Lichtensteiger, Edwin Williams, Montgomery (Starter to be determined)

RG: Hicks, Mike Williams, Rinehart, Robinson (Backups to be determined)

RT: (Loser of the LT battle), Calloway, Heyer, Oldenburg (Starter to be determined)

Our 2nd round pick should be able to play LT just in case. Clearly someone will be cut from this list.

I’d take this any day even if it meant Campbell was under center for another year. FYI: I’m actually unsure of Campbell’s ability due to coaching, lack of weapons and poor line play.

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Regardless of whether you are ok with Campbell for now or want to draft a rookie, the QB is going to need time to throw. Portis, Johnson and/or a new rookie will need running lanes and a good push from an improved O-Line. I believe we can get by with what we already have at most of our team positions but the two Tackle spots have to get better this year. We might get lucky drafting starters later in the 4th, 5th or even 7th rounds but we have a higher probability of getting starter quality guys in the 1st and 2nd. Since we need at least two, we should get those two as soon as we can. I also think that depth would be a good thing to consider on the O-Line. As we all witnessed last year, injuries happen and then the season goes in the crapper real quick. I think we should draft O-Line in the 4th or 5th maybe even both if the value is there. For those of you that want to get O-Linemen later, those guys will still be there. If they are good enough to start then great, we now have more starter quality players competing for jobs in camp.

I’m sure there will still be those that disagree about how many O-Linemen to draft, when to draft them and who to draft. For the sake of discussion, look at our projected O-Line depth chart. How does what you are suggesting pan out in game time? Someone has to block the D-Lines in our division. There aren’t any easy games there for our new O-Line. Once again I believe we need a good LT and RT (THIS YEAR)!!!!

So barring something unimaginable like Orakpo falling to us at the 13th spot like last year, or some other player that has way too much value to pass up from our 2nd rounder on, I say draft to improve our O-Line this year.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.
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Actually, we DO have a lot of young talent. Granted, we don't know how good that young talent can be, but it is there. Chad Rinehart, Edwin Williams, Kory Lichtensteiger, Clint Oldenburg, William Robinson and Paul Fanaika. It will be interesting to see how many of these guys are worth something.

Players that have been released and undrafted FA's, aside from Rinehart correct me if am wrong on this. IMO going through those players doesn't assure me that the team is loaded with young talent. Hope am wrong, though.

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In homage to a post a few days ago on QBs...

There seems to be a pre-occupation on us taking at least one QB in this draft but what we really need is to really address the OL .

While I would like us to take Russell Okung I would actually like to go BPA so say if Suh was there then that may be a smart way to go tio sure up the 3-4 deffensive front ...

As so many has said Okung is not a lock to be a success and there are some negatives ... i.e he does not have outstanding foot speed, not exceptionally strong and may fit best into a man scheme, more of a finesses player ... a little like the comments on Sammuels coming out ...

Good post. I also believe we will pick Okung or Sue at #4. Then Mike will take Tebow with our 2nd pick. After that it's back to the O-Line. From what I here Mike and his Son like Tebow in the 2nd round. I don't think there in much interest in keeping JC past next season. You never can tell Colt may even win this job if it's open comp as they say it will be.

http://www.newerascouting.com/10/russell-okung-scouting-report/

Or our own Brian Orakopo's scouting report which conflicts somewhat

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/brian-orakpo/orakpo-gives-mini-scouting-rep.html

"He's a Big 12 guy, man, a lot of Big 12 guys are really good," Orakpo said. "I've got a lot of respect for him. Me and him, we had a good battle my senior year. He's a guy that's got great feet.

"Very strong, very athletic for a tackle, and whoever picks him up got a hell of a player. I know what type of player he is, and he brings a lot to the table as far as stopping those big-play pass rushers. I'd love to see him here. We need a blocker. We need some blockers. We'll see."

And I am not intending this thread to be a scouting thread but I want to focus on that last comment . We need some blockers . Not one but several .

I am not a proponent of using the entire draft on offensive linemen but we could do worse . .

The thing is we don't need just one guy and ta-dah the line is fixed ! We need to totally rehaul the line . What killed us last season was not the fact that in terms of talent there was a huge drop off from player a to player b but there was no cohesion in the line from player a to player b . When we had so many changes in the line up as we did last season there is no hope for chemistry .

The philosophy for depth changed every season with one coach preferring veterans and then young UDFA then a mix of the 2 but we never developed a player or a group to feed into the line . Our backups were all thought of as stop gaps until the new FA could come in ..

People argue that look at the Chargers or the Giants they don't have 1st round talent on their line, but they used to . Luke Pettigue was a Giants mainstay for a number of years drafted in the first round helped David Diehl come on as a guard (where he had problems) before sliding outside to replace Luke and is now regarded as a top tackle in the game . They have former 2nd and 4th round picks developing behind their starting tackles ... in short they have a plan .

We have been missing a plan for along time . Who are we developing (Rienheart?) we need to take at least 3 of the 5 selections have to be OL .

People seem to think draft a franchise QB and then everything else works, except there are plenty of good QBs who should have succeeded on the pro-level had their careers hamstrung by not having a real team to work with .

Archie Manning, is the poster child for that position but how good would Pat Ramsey be in Joe Gibbs max protect systems if he had started for him rather than Spurrier . How good would the 49ers Smith be had he not been through the most turbulent period in coaching and co-ordinator changes in 9er history .

The bottom line is fix the OL and the rest of the offense is better . If you want to go a different direction with a QB then give him at least a chance to succeed or in 3 years BLC, wyvbred and company will be burning effigies of him ...

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It would be nice if the Skins could trade down a bit. The thing about OTs though is that most of the rest of the league knows that football starts in the trenches. So, when there is a good OT class the OTs tend to get picked early.

I agree with the OP that the Skins need more than just one OLman. While the Skins have picked up potential replacements at Guard the situation at OT is still dire. In the ideal world the Skins would pick up a new long-term solution at both LT and RT (Samuels and Jansen bookend draft). I don't pretend to know which OTs are going to pan out or which one is overrated. I just hope the Skins don't go for a work-out warrior.

If people want to trade up we could conceivably get a first and second rounder for our first rounder. Now this would mean that we wouldnt get Okung or Bulaga for our OT, but it would give us a first and a high second to use to shore up our tackle positions as well as another second to use where we need it. My scenario would optimally have us getting Bruce Campbell with our first round pick (or whichever OT the FO thinks is best).

Yes people will take offensive tackles early, but they will not be over the top with it. There is no way 10 offensive tackles will be taken in the first 20 picks for instance. I am also hoping for the Samuels-Jansen tandem to come back, because those guys had about 7 years where they shut people down. If we could potentially get that again then we would be in very good shape.

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People who are advocating drafting BPA or QB over OL must not have watched this team last year.

-In the top 5, you really shouldn't be drafting for need. You need to take the best player available. Drafting for need is what leads to 1st round busts.

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What about free agent Bobbie Williams with the Bengals?

I still think Bradford should be the priority target in this draft. It's a QB driven league and I think he can be special. He's a guy that has the potential to lead this team for the next decade.
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Players that have been released and undrafted FA's, aside from Rinehart correct me if am wrong on this. IMO going through those players doesn't assure me that the team is loaded with young talent. Hope am wrong, though.

I'm not saying you should be. It is hard to be reassured if it is hard to see from the layman's point of view whether these guys have what it takes to play in the NFL. But, we'd be in a similar position with draft picks who hadn't made it on the field yet. Rinehart is a good example. Many here felt he was a bust because he couldn't find his way onto the field after his first year. Whether or not he will be good is still up in the air, but he did show some things in his second year.

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Right now we have questions at two spots. Right Guard and Left Tackle.

Obviously left tackle is a must.

But we do have Big Mike and Rino for the the Right Guard spot. I think Hicks can play Right Tackle and Heyer can back him up.

You'll notice who is generally screaming for 3-25 different OL picks, it's the Excuse Brigade. Yes, OL is a weakness but we HAVE guys on the roster. Other teams DO NOT roll out 5 1st rounders or even 4 top 2 rounders. In fact, some of the better lines and teams field UDFAs, 5th/6th rounders and low-tier FA castoffs.

We only really need LT, we have depth for the other spots and at least POSSIBLY credible starters at RG and RT (unsettled before this offseason?)

What you have here are people who are desperate to point to OL and are operating under an early 90s mindset (at best) and thus think that the key to re-establishing the team is by consolidating an OL full of future HoFers. That's not happening and like Hutch and Walter Jones with Seattle, you can't even afford it when you get TWO on the same line when their contracts come due.

The last FOUR teams to appear in the SB have all had SIGNIFICANT weaknesses in their offensive line talent and performance. As a unit, New Orleans has a good line but even they had difficulty and excel partly because Brees makes such quick decisions. That the Atlanta line credited RYAN for making them look good is something I always point out but is quickly forgotten amongst the swirling electrons of people who are more interested in providing excuses for a particular player to the point where they actually believe it (or operate under antiquated notions of what successful teams do in the NFL.)

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Right now we have questions at two spots. Right Guard and Left Tackle.

Obviously left tackle is a must.

But we do have Big Mike and Rino for the the Right Guard spot. I think Hicks can play Right Tackle and Heyer can back him up.

I feel we are going to make a trade on draft day. Maybe more then one.

If we go QB in the first round, I think Hicks is in the running for the LT berth.

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I agree with the ES member who says to trade down and get more picks in later rounds. But we don't have 10 picks this year. We have only two picks thanks to Vinny and Dan giving picks away the last 5 years. We are going to have to pick off some linemen from some other teams who are second teamers. Like going after the guy from SF who just re-signed with SF. It was a good effort. Allen is going to have to watch the waiver wires too.

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I agree with the ES member who says to trade down and get more picks in later rounds. But we don't have 10 picks this year. We have only two picks thanks to Vinny and Dan giving picks away the last 5 years. We are going to have to pick off some linemen from some other teams who are second teamers. Like going after the guy from SF who just re-signed with SF. It was a good effort. Allen is going to have to watch the waiver wires too.
'

We have more then two and the issue with trading down is you need someone to trade down with.

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'

We have more then two and the issue with trading down is you need someone to trade down with.

Yeah very true, some other ES member said this draft is very deep for OL and I agree. They need someone elite with the #4 pick, Either Okung/Bulaga/Suh/Berry/Bradford, whoever is left that Shanahan wants the most.

Im hoping that with the extra draft day for round 1, that Shanahan and Allen can trade our second round pick because teams will be willing to move up to get "their" guys in the second round, so maybe we can pick up extra picks in later rounds that way. Charles Brown/Jason Fox/Saffold are good prospects for us to pick up, we need to pick up as many good OL as we can in this deep draft.

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Is the poor line play attributable to poor QB play or is the poor QB play attributable to poor OL play? That has been debated ad nauseum. Shall we also say that a poor running game is also the result of a poor OLine or is the poor OLine the result of a poor running game? It makes almost as much sense. Yet the Skins had both last year. They couldn't score on short yardage. Third and short or 4th and 1 were always off tackle plays because the Skins couldn't run inside.

As the anti-Campbell crowd believes, it's all the QB's fault. They forget about how they drooled over Cutler and how Cutler sucked when he had a bad OL with the Bears. But they still believe if we had got Cutler last year, that somehow the Skins would have been better, even after giving up our first round picks for two years in the deal to get Cutler. They're the same ones who want to draft a QB this year and neglect the OLine for another year in some vain hope that Shanahan's zone-blocking scheme will make an All-Pro out of any 6th or 7th round OL picked. Or maybe it'll make an All-Pro out of Heyer, the UDFA they placed all their OL hopes on when he replaced Jansen.

There are a large number of people on this board that just find it easier to blame the QB than it is to look at the entire team. Probably the same ones who said they liked last years draft. I'll say it clear. The fault on this team and the reason the Skins lose is attributable to the neglect of the OLine by Vinny and Snyder, who drafted 7 QB's in the last 10 years and ignored the OLine. Even after the entire coaching staff got together at the end of 2008 and ponted directly at OLine play as the reason behind the failed season, Vinny and Snyder drafted no OLine at all in 2009 when we had 7 draft picks. And some would have us do it again this year when we have 5.

This year, it will be easy to see who is right. Shanahan has reviewed the film, and not just the film you get to see on TV that just follows the QB every play. His review shows him where the real problem lies. If Shanahan drafts OL in the first, then those that put all of the blame on Campbell will be shown to be wrong. If Shanahan drafts QB in the first, then those that put the blame on the OL will be wrong.

Simple enough. I'll wait for the draft.

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As the anti-Campbell crowd believes, it's all the QB's fault. They forget about how they drooled over Cutler and how Cutler sucked when he had a bad OL with the Bears. But they still believe if we had got Cutler last year, that somehow the Skins would have been better, even after giving up our first round picks for two years in the deal to get Cutler. They're the same ones who want to draft a QB this year and neglect the OLine for another year in some vain hope that Shanahan's zone-blocking scheme will make an All-Pro out of any 6th or 7th round OL picked. Or maybe it'll make an All-Pro out of Heyer, the UDFA they placed all their OL hopes on when he replaced Jansen.

There are a large number of people on this board that just find it easier to blame the QB than it is to look at the entire team. Probably the same ones who said they liked last years draft. I'll say it clear. The fault on this team and the reason the Skins lose is attributable to the neglect of the OLine by Vinny and Snyder, who drafted 7 QB's in the last 10 years and ignored the OLine. Even after the entire coaching staff got together at the end of 2008 and ponted directly at OLine play as the reason behind the failed season, Vinny and Snyder drafted no OLine at all in 2009 when we had 7 draft picks. And some would have us do it again this year when we have 5.

This year, it will be easy to see who is right. Shanahan has reviewed the film, and not just the film you get to see on TV that just follows the QB every play. His review shows him where the real problem lies. If Shanahan drafts OL in the first, then those that put all of the blame on Campbell will be shown to be wrong. If Shanahan drafts QB in the first, then those that put the blame on the OL will be wrong.

Simple enough. I'll wait for the draft.

I will also wait for the draft and then training camp where finally we will have open competition.

As for Cutler he has an opportunity to become an elite QB in this league especially now that Chicago added Martz as the OC. Last year Cutler came to a new team with a new offense (sound familiar?) and his best receiver was Hester. He still threw 27 TD's and yes 26 Int's to go with them while also being sacked 35 times. With Martz as his OC I can see him getting back to the 2008 season where he threw 25 TD's, 18 Int's for 4,526 yards.

Now would we have been better with him last year? I think so but in that offense of Zorn's who really knows. Would the season be looking brighter this year with him? IMO hell yeah it's not even close.

I will say it again we need a change at QB and hopefully the change is to a gunslinging leader type that can stay behind center for many years to come.

:point2sky

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http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/

Big Mike Williams has a big fan in Coach Mike Shanahan, who seems to believe Williams will play an even more prominent role this season than he did in 2009.

"I think Mike has got a very high ceiling," Shanahan said. "The guard is his position, not the tackle position.

"When he did play guard, I thought he played it well, especially losing as much weight as he lost. If he can keep to this whole offseason at the same weight that he finished, and keep on improving, he'll help us."

Picked this article up from RI today. In recent times, its now been reported that Shanahan has spoken highly of BMW & Rhino. The agent of Hicks said the discussions led towards him and the RG position, plus we also have Dock. We also now have multiple guys signed up to cover the Centre positon.

Whilst you can argue how much quality we have, it looks to me like the interior line options are already being covered by players we have signed up.

I think you could see Hicks move out to one of the T berths, and we draft or sign someone for the other T berth. Unless a 'steal' falls to us come draft time, I'm guessing we may be looking at only one new OL additional via the draft. (* unless we somehow aquire more picks than the 5 we currently have)

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That the Atlanta line credited RYAN for making them look good is something I always point out but is quickly forgotten amongst the swirling electrons of people who are more interested in providing excuses for a particular player to the point where they actually believe it (or operate under antiquated notions of what successful teams do in the NFL.)

My favorite example of a team in the exact same situation, and I will quote myself once again for effect:

"....Yeah, whats great about the supposed solid Falcons line that Ryan lucked into was that in 2007, that line was tied for sixth worse in the league, giving up 47 sacks.

In 2008, they were fifth best team in the league giving up only 17 sacks.

What changed on the line between 2007 and 2008?

LT, Sam Baker was drafted with the 21st pick, he played 5 games then was IR'ed with a back injury...replaced by street FA pick up Wayne Gandy, a 37 year old who was cut by the Falcons in the 2007 offseason after tearing an ACL midseason...sounds familiar.

LG Justin Blalock, a 2007 2nd round pick, who played RT in college, stayed the same.

C, Todd McClure, a 1999 7th round pick, stayed the same.

RG, the immortal Kynan Forney, a former 2001 7th round pick was released for the immortal Harvey Dahl, a twice cut 2005 UDFA. Dahl has been down right great I must admit, but no one was banging down his door to sign him in 2008.

RT, Tyson Clabo, a 2004 UDFA orignally cut by the Broncos, Giants and Chargers, stayed the same.

Draw your own conclusions, but I don't think it was all the All-Pro linemen they added that cut out 30 sacks."

We need a LT. We should upgrade at RT, but we have bodies that can fill that now.

Unfortunately, I think the Rams are going to be smart and draft Bradford, and I think the wise play for us as much as it pains me to admit it, is going to be to grab Okung.

@MoveTheSticks

Half the teams I've talked to have faith in Bulaga as a LT and the other half believe he will end up at RT 12:54 AM Mar 24th via TweetDeck

That right there scares the crap out of me, we don't need to be drafting a short armed RT with the four pick. Bulaga seems to just be the favorite name of the draft OL with no exceptions camp, which is the worst possible philosophy.

I will be interested to see if we trade back into the first with Tebow and/or McCoy possibly sneaking into the bottom of that round.

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Whilst you can argue how much quality we have' date=' it looks to me like the interior line options are already being covered by players we have signed up.

I think you could see Hicks move out to one of the T berths, and we draft or sign someone for the other T berth. Unless a 'steal' falls to us come draft time, I'm guessing we may be looking at only one new OL additional via the draft. (* unless we somehow aquire more picks than the 5 we currently have)[/quote']

That's mostly the way I've been seeing it. We have enough guys on our roster that we can find SOMEONE who can start at RG next season. We also seem to have plenty of competition at C as well (With Rabach an almost certain lock to start next year, we can at least have to coaching staff find out what they have.)

I did find it interesting that Shanahan viewed BMW as just a guard. I wonder if he will try to prove him wrong this offseason.

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That's mostly the way I've been seeing it. We have enough guys on our roster that we can find SOMEONE who can start at RG next season. We also seem to have plenty of competition at C as well (With Rabach an almost certain lock to start next year, we can at least have to coaching staff find out what they have.)

I find it interesting that some players are given years and years to develop, but all our young OL players since they didn't start out of the gate are completely dismissed as non-options, as if OL players don't need time to grow and improve their play just like skill positions.

If anything, UDFA and late round picks should be given a bit more time to see if they can put it together, but instead, people are assuming that outside of Dock, we don't have a single OL worth keeping on the roster.

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My favorite example of a team in the exact same situation, and I will quote myself once again for effect:

While I do think Matt Ryan helped, I don't think that was the whole story. Warrick Dunn also had one of his worst seasons as a pro. A year later in Tampa, he improved a whole yard a carry gaining about the same amount of yards he did in his previous year.

It reminds me when Spurrier was here. At that time, the OL looked awful to us and it was though that a lot of guys would need to be tossed. Buges, with the same guys, was able to get better results. That is what I think was the case in Atlanta.

That isn't the same in our situation, where not only were the sacks high, but Campbell was repeatedly getting hit after getting rid of the ball. Also, there is little doubt that there was a big dropoff in ability after Samuels went down. Injuries also forced some guys out of the lineup and ruined any sort of continuity from developing.

I find it interesting that some players are given years and years to develop, but all our young OL players since they didn't start out of the gate are completely dismissed as non-options, as if OL players don't need time to grow and improve their play just like skill positions.

If anything, UDFA and late round picks should be given a bit more time to see if they can put it together, but instead, people are assuming that outside of Dock, we don't have a single OL worth keeping on the roster.

I think it has become rather difficult to develop late round OL from the nature of the position. Often, you need guys who can step in when guys go down, but it is hard for these young guys to get the experience they need to develop into solid OL. You almost have to show something immediately to stick around in this league.

A situation like ours is a good one for a young lineman if he can pull things together enough to impress the coaches.

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That's mostly the way I've been seeing it. We have enough guys on our roster that we can find SOMEONE who can start at RG next season. We also seem to have plenty of competition at C as well (With Rabach an almost certain lock to start next year, we can at least have to coaching staff find out what they have.)

I did find it interesting that Shanahan viewed BMW as just a guard. I wonder if he will try to prove him wrong this offseason.

It may boil down to what we get in at the T position. I like the idea of Hicks at T. I think he's an outside shout for LT depending on the draft strategy. But we must get a couple more in. I hope we can draft a T within our first 2 picks & pick up a solid vet along the way.

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