Washington Post poll - vast majority want OL drafted

[fansince62]

My post was meant to show that the Post poll conclusion may not be as crazy as some seem to think, given that their figure is relatively the same as Califan's, who had a lot of votes, so many that valid conclusions could be reached. Seems you missed the context completely.

I know. just messin with ya cuz I have about zero trust in the WPO.

though....I always prefer the analytic route....perhaps Mr Emanuel was right.

[fansince62]

we cannot wait to draft a QB. you realize that if we dont take a QB in this draft, then we potentially wont draft one until next year, making him not even possible to start by 2012?? thats over half of shannys contract up, and hes supposed to turn this team around. teams that go 4-12 and have dreadful offenses take QBs to help spark a turnaround, they dont wait years to build everything else then draft a QB. and if they that QB doesnt hit early, shanahans tenure is over.

we need to take a QB this year and get this process started. bradford could potentially finish out this season, just like cutler did for shanny in 06, and bradford would be ready to go by 2011, and we'd get to see him for a full season and get a pretty good idea of how good hes going to be.

not taking a QB wastes a ton of time.

that's my major issue with putting off finding the QB next-gen.

[Conn]

And I can absolutely respect that opinion of JC because of how you expressed it.

Says the man who accuses other posters of racism when they criticize Campbell.

Hmmm. He seems to be the more rational poster of you two, in my view. Your posts are just painful as **** to read, because you're incapable of having an intelligent discussion. Why? Because you just don't have any respect for any opinion that opposes your own. Why else? because you can't even get across your own opinion in a manner that encourages actual discussion. You're right and those who don't agree are wrong, and their opinions have no merit. In my opinion, that's the worst kind of poster. But I know you won't give a **** about that, because you disagree with this statement.

[elkabong82]

Says the man who accuses other posters of racism when they criticize Campbell.

You really are pathetic. What is this, like the 3rd time you've brought it up recently. You know very well by now that it was 1 time, the guy then further explained what he meant and showed how I misunderstood him, and I apologized. It's not a regular thing as you seem to try and imply by making "other posters" plural, when it was just one. If that was something I did frequently, or even on several occassions, I would have been banned from here, at least temporarily.

But I have never been banned from here, whereas your petty conduct on here has gotten you ousted several times.

Oh, and btw, your skewed perceptions of me don't magically negate the fact you express yourself in an irrational and immature basis quite frequently on this board.

Thanks for playing, and I'll be waiting on the apology for trying to imply that I regularly accuse other posters of being racist. Something tells me I'll be waiting a while and that instead of manning up you'll continue to post your BS lies about me. Guess it easier than dealing with the truth about your sub-par posting abilities.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

that's my major issue with putting off finding the QB next-gen.

exactly. if we dont take a QB in this draft, itll be mid 2011 to 2012 before we see a legit potential ace back there.

i cannot believe that shanny took this job with the notion that he wouldnt get to start grooming a future QB until 2 years into his tenure.

[SoCalSkins]

You really are pathetic.

What is pathetic is throwing accusations out based on the posting history you have. Don't comment on others posting quality when you can't defend your own. If you want to discuss it further, take it to PM.

To be clear, you responded to me first. Put me on ignore if you can't handle it.

[elkabong82]

we cannot wait to draft a QB. you realize that if we dont take a QB in this draft, then we potentially wont draft one until next year, making him not even possible to start by 2012?? thats over half of shannys contract up, and hes supposed to turn this team around. teams that go 4-12 and have dreadful offenses take QBs to help spark a turnaround, they dont wait years to build everything else then draft a QB. and if they that QB doesnt hit early, shanahans tenure is over.

we need to take a QB this year and get this process started. bradford could potentially finish out this season, just like cutler did for shanny in 06, and bradford would be ready to go by 2011, and we'd get to see him for a full season and get a pretty good idea of how good hes going to be.

not taking a QB wastes a ton of time.

Didn't you say before you wouldn't mind seeing a QB we draft this year starting by the halfway point?

Why all of a sudden do you assume a rookie QB coming into a good situation couldn't start right away? Your 2012 argument makes no sense. If we solidify the team over this offseason we could have the rookie QB starting at the beginning of 2011 if he wins a QB competition (if there even is one at that point, it might just be the rookie).

Besides, Shanny has won with Griese and Plummer, so it's not like it's out of the realm of possibility he has success with the current QB if he improves other areas of the team instead.

You are severely overvaluing QB to the point where in your mind it seems there is no other option at 4. That kind of thinking leads to picking Alex Smith or Jamrcuss Russell.

You are assuming Shanny can't/won't win unless he drafts a QB this year. That is a very faulty assumption, you should be aware of the reasons why.

What QBs have taken a 4-12 team, that had a recent history of mediocrity, not just 1 down year, and improved them immediately without much else being addressed?

The Packers, Steelers, Broncos, Ravens, Chargers all had relatively succesful and established systems in place when they brought their franchise QBs in.

Teams like the Lions, Raiders, 49ers, all put too much urgency into getting the franchise QB, and drafted one high because he had the most talent/ability of that class, without seemingly realizing that the QB class overall may have been weak. They didn't have much, if any, established success or stability before bringing in the QB, and it basically destroyed them.

Whoever Shanny wants for his QB I support, but I do not support the notion of drafting a QB high, investing a lot of time, money, and the future of the team in him, only to put him in a poor situation which will be detrimental to his growth.

[The Tris]

i cannot believe that shanny took this job with the notion that he wouldnt get to start grooming a future QB until 2 years into his tenure.

I agree with this, and I would say 90% of my posts from this week are just arguments for how this situation will not result in the end of the world, and can be condusive for rebuilding the OL.

If we draft a QB, hooray, I have the highest hopes for him as he will be developed by a fantastic staff, and despite all accounts, there are some decent pieces for him to utilize in our offense.

If we do not, it sucks that we get the #4 pick in a draft with no franchise QBs, but at least we will have a solid OL or prospect to build around. I am just of the opinion that the former is going to turn out to be true.

I don't see Shanny waiting on a QB in the later rounds, so it seems to me to be 1st round or nothing in the QB department.

[elkabong82]

What is pathetic is throwing accusations out based on the posting history you have. Don't comment on others posting quality when you can't defend your own. If you want to discuss it further, take it to PM.

To be clear, you responded to me first. Put me on ignore if you can't handle it.

I did defend my own posts. If you didn't have to reach and make up lies to try and create a tendency out of 1 isolated incident, then I wouldn't even have to.

Take your own advice. Don't comment on others posting quality, especially since you haven't defended your own, you've merely tried to step around that. Why?

Because the nastiness and immaturity you take it to has no possible defense.

Again, your posts do a great disservice to this board and only posions others attempts at fruitful conversation.

And still waiting on that apology for trying to continually create a tendency out of 1 incident.

You want to claim I accuse multiple posters of being a racist? Then prove it. I've never been banned from ES, not even for a day. Explain how that's possible if I frequently accuse others of being racist, as you continually try to imply.

Man up, or shut up.

[SoCalSkins]

I don't need to defend my posting history. It is far more accurate and insightful than the vast majority here.

Put me on ignore or take it to PM.

[The Tris]

What QBs have taken a 4-12 team, that had a recent history of mediocrity, not just 1 down year, and improved them immediately without much else being addressed?

elka, that is just a ridiculous statement from someone like you to assume that not much else will be addressed if we draft a QB at #4.

At the bare MINIMUM, we are going to bring in multiple new offensive lineman, and I would suspect a RB or two. The only constants that one can realistically assume would be our LG, 2nd and 3rd WRs, and our 1st and 2nd TEs. Everything I think is completely up in the air, and we will have a much much different offensive line up no matter who the QB is.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Didn't you say before you wouldn't mind seeing a QB we draft this year starting by the halfway point?

Why all of a sudden do you assume a rookie QB coming into a good situation couldn't start right away? Your 2012 argument makes no sense. If we solidify the team over this offseason we could have the rookie QB starting at the beginning of 2011 if he wins a QB competition (if there even is one at that point, it might just be the rookie).

Besides, Shanny has won with Griese and Plummer, so it's not like it's out of the realm of possibility he has success with the current QB if he improves other areas of the team instead.

You are severely overvaluing QB to the point where in your mind it seems there is no other option at 4. That kind of thinking leads to picking Alex Smith or Jamrcuss Russell.

You are assuming Shanny can't/won't win unless he drafts a QB this year. That is a very faulty assumption, you should be aware of the reasons why.

What QBs have taken a 4-12 team, that had a recent history of mediocrity, not just 1 down year, and improved them immediately without much else being addressed?

The Packers, Steelers, Broncos, Ravens, Chargers all had relatively succesful and established systems in place when they brought their franchise QBs in.

Teams like the Lions, Raiders, 49ers, all put too much urgency into getting the franchise QB, and drafted one high because he had the most talent/ability of that class, without seemingly realizing that the QB class overall may have been weak. They didn't have much, if any, established success or stability before bringing in the QB, and it basically destroyed them.

Whoever Shanny wants for his QB I support, but I do not support the notion of drafting a QB high, investing a lot of time, money, and the future of the team in him, only to put him in a poor situation which will be detrimental to his growth.

shanny didnt win jack with greise and plummer. early exits from the playoffs are not the goal we should have. those two crappy QBs are why he drafted cutler, because he knew he needed a legit QB to take his team to the next level. sadly for him his defense crumbled right when the offense took off and he got canned.

the falcons turned around in one year adding one runningback and a rookie QB. the pats were a pretty mediocre team until brady showed up. the eagles were crap until mcnabb showed up. the chargers were utter garbage until brees figured it out (and thats with tomlinson in his prime).

there are countless examples of QBs showing up and turning teams around. im not gonna buy your story about how everything was in place and how these guys just fell into great situations, i call BS on that. rarely do guys fall into great situations, flacco might be the only recent guy i know that fell into a nice position. when rodgers showed up in green bay his defense was a joke, favre was a pick machine, and his team went 6-10 in his first year, and his offensive line still sucks, yet he finds a way to win.

QB = #1, always and forever or until the rules change. mark it down, we will not win a superbowl or even contend for an NFC championship game until we get a legit QB in here.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

elka, that is just a ridiculous statement from someone like you to assume that not much else will be addressed if we draft a QB at #4.

At the bare MINIMUM, we are going to bring in multiple new offensive lineman, and I would suspect a RB or two. The only constants that one can realistically assume would be our LG, 2nd and 3rd WRs, and our 1st and 2nd TEs. Everything I think is completely up in the air, and we will have a much much different offensive line up no matter who the QB is.

i cant believe people are so thick that they dont understand this. THE OLINE WILL BE ADDRESSED PEOPLE. not taking a guy at 4 doesnt mean the oline is a non issue and our 2009 line is coming back.

we will probably have 4 new starters on the oline, most of them will hopefully and probably be young, and i wouldnt be surprised to see 2 rookies in there, which is more than enough. some of you advocating starting 3-4 rookies on the oline are just living on mars.

[elkabong82]

elka, that is just a ridiculous statement from someone like you to assume that not much else will be addressed if we draft a QB at #4.

At the bare MINIMUM, we are going to bring in multiple new offensive lineman, and I would suspect a RB or two. The only constants that one can realistically assume would be our LG, 2nd and 3rd WRs, and our 1st and 2nd TEs. Everything I think is completely up in the air, and we will have a much much different offensive line up no matter who the QB is.

I don't think much else can be addressed regardless of who we pick at 4. I think we really need to trade down, either in the 1st, 2nd, or both.

We have to replace 3-4 starters on the OL, and still get depth in there as well. We need a fresher element in the run game. We are switching to a 3-4 defense and need to make some changes and additions there as well.

With free agency being limited due to no salary cap, in addition to the fact we have just 5 picks in the draft, I think our resources are somewhat limited this season.

Keep in mind I've already said in here I am a BPA proponent, and that I would take Berry over QB and OL if he were BPA at 4. I don't have an allegiance to the "no QB" club, I also said in here I support Shanny's decision regardless of my own opinion.

I'm not assuming much else won't be addressed, I'm just not seeing how much else can be adequately addressed unless we acquire more draft picks.

[alwaysaskin]

Its not like Rabach is a real lost, Im sure you watched his play this year along with everybody else. Average at best, alot of missed blocks and just getting runned over.

I agree with you Rabach, but that still means we need to replace 80% of our line, and possibly 100% if Dock doesn't translate to the ZBS. In addition we could use a LB, we'll have to find Carlos's replacement, as I am pretty sure he is not coming back.

I think people like me are sick of seing mid to low round draft picks and UDFA's thrown into the line, to see if they stick. We tried that approach for ten years, it didn't work.

[PCS]

I don't need to defend my posting history. It is far more accurate and insightful than the vast majority here.

Put me on ignore or take it to PM.

Yes. Please take it to p.m.. (The rest is kind of ironic in a way). And knock it off with the accusations at Elkabong. If you can prove it was more than once,fine. If not,then this is a baseless and unnecessary accusation and does nothing for the discussion at hand.

While we're at it. Here's the way it works. I'm getting tired of walking in to these threads and seeing a scrum breaking out. I'm especially tired of seeing You,BLC,Passizle,and a few others at the bottom of the pile or piling on. You children need to find a different way of expressing yourselves,( or just don't respond to each other),on this issue or so help me I'm going to make a rule for you guys not to be able to post in anything dealing with the QB position. Specifically Jason Campbell. Good day sirs.

[elkabong82]

shanny didnt win jack with greise and plummer. early exits from the playoffs are not the goal we should have. those two crappy QBs are why he drafted cutler, because he knew he needed a legit QB to take his team to the next level. sadly for him his defense crumbled right when the offense took off and he got canned.

the falcons turned around in one year adding one runningback and a rookie QB. the pats were a pretty mediocre team until brady showed up. the eagles were crap until mcnabb showed up. the chargers were utter garbage until brees figured it out (and thats with tomlinson in his prime).

there are countless examples of QBs showing up and turning teams around. im not gonna buy your story about how everything was in place and how these guys just fell into great situations, i call BS on that. rarely do guys fall into great situations, flacco might be the only recent guy i know that fell into a nice position. when rodgers showed up in green bay his defense was a joke, favre was a pick machine, and his team went 6-10 in his first year, and his offensive line still sucks, yet he finds a way to win.

QB = #1, always and forever or until the rules change. mark it down, we will not win a superbowl or even contend for an NFC championship game until we get a legit QB in here.

The point about Shanny with Plummer and Griese was that the teams were still succesful overall. Having to face the Pats and Colts doesn;t make it easier either, but let's avoid that. The point is, Shanny had a succesful system to bring Cutler into. Cutler didn't do as well this past season because he didn't have that same benefit, IMO.

I'm not sure you are even understanding my argument correctly at this point. What I'm saying is I want a stable situation before we bring in the QB (this bars certain factors, like a Manning or Marino falling into our laps at the draft, which I don't see in this class). The teams you mentioned all improved elsewhere, not just at QB.

The Falcons didn't do much when they lost Turner, and made the playoffs just 1 season so far. If Shanny's constant presence in the playoffs isn't enough for you, 1 appearance by the Falcons shouldn;t be enough either.

The Pats were playoff contenders with Bledsoe. The Chargers thought Brees was not the answer, so they brought Rivers in. The players they drafted as a result of that trade with the Giants have certainly helped them. The Packers were in the playoffs regularly when they drafted Rodgers. Again, 1 down year for an otherwise established team does not count as "turning it around" when they succeed the following year.

There are countless examples of QBs coming in and making a team better. There aren't countless examples of a QB coming in and making relatively the same crappy team better.

Again, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Sanchez, Cutler, Brady, Rivers all enjoyed coming into a relatively stable situation with at least some pre-established success.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The point about Shanny with Plummer and Griese was that the teams were still succesful overall. Having to face the Pats and Colts doesn;t make it easier either, but let's avoid that. The point is, Shanny had a succesful system to bring Cutler into. Cutler didn't do as well this past season because he didn't have that same benefit, IMO.

I'm not sure you are even understanding my argument correctly at this point. What I'm saying is I want a stable situation before we bring in the QB (this bars certain factors, like a Manning or Marino falling into our laps at the draft, which I don't see in this class). The teams you mentioned all improved elsewhere, not just at QB.

The Falcons didn't do much when they lost Turner, and made the playoffs just 1 season so far. If Shanny's constant presence in the playoffs isn't enough for you, 1 appearance by the Falcons shouldn;t be enough either.

The Pats were playoff contenders with Bledsoe. The Chargers thought Brees was not the answer, so they brought Rivers in. The players they drafted as a result of that trade with the Giants have certainly helped them. The Packers were in the playoffs regularly when they drafted Rodgers. Again, 1 down year for an otherwise established team does not count as "turning it around" when they succeed the following year.

There are countless examples of QBs coming in and making a team better. There aren't countless examples of a QB coming in and making relatively the same crappy team better.

Again, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Sanchez, Cutler, Brady, Rivers all enjoyed coming into a relatively stable situation with at least some pre-established success.

im not sure exactly whats so "unstable" about our situation?

- we currently have a very solid defense, good enough for any learning offense or QB to lean on. thats pretty much been their role for as long as i can remember.

- we have a good crop of young WR, a pro bowl TE, and another TE that looked to be pretty good last year. this is a solid crop of receiving threats.

- we have a proven head coach and a proven coordinator who have both run successful schemes with different teams. any QB coming into either of these guys tutelage is coming into a great position.

we have 3 major issues on offense: QB, OL, RB. RB IMO is not an issue, any 23 year old kid with fresh legs can run a football well, as long as theres a solid oline and threat of a passing game. so that leaves two issues: QB and OL.

thats 6 players we need to really focus on. we can find 4 of them this year in the draft and free agency, and probably handle the other 2-3 (depending on RB) next season.

i just dont think our current situation is as grim as you make it out to be. we now have a proven coaching staff that literally just needs a QB and an Oline to make it work. we have 2 high picks in this draft, why not get the QB and an OT and get this thing started right away?

[Passizle]

Says the man who accuses other posters of racism when they criticize Campbell.

Hey look! Another strawman! BURN IT!!!!

[Passizle]

we cannot wait to draft a QB. you realize that if we dont take a QB in this draft, then we potentially wont draft one until next year, making him not even possible to start by 2012?? thats over half of shannys contract up, and hes supposed to turn this team around. teams that go 4-12 and have dreadful offenses take QBs to help spark a turnaround, they dont wait years to build everything else then draft a QB. and if they that QB doesnt hit early, shanahans tenure is over.

we need to take a QB this year and get this process started. bradford could potentially finish out this season, just like cutler did for shanny in 06, and bradford would be ready to go by 2011, and we'd get to see him for a full season and get a pretty good idea of how good hes going to be.

not taking a QB wastes a ton of time.

Where is the proof on this. Just take a look at the teams that have finished poorly in the past decade. Most of the teams that had the same "knee jerk" reaction (that you are expressing) have not turned it around.

San Fran reached for the QB and failed

Detroit reached for the QB and failed

Houston reached for the QB and failed

Buffalo reached for a QB and failed

Oakland reached and failed

KC reached and failed

Chicago reached and failed

AZ reached and failed

Cleveland reached and failed

Then, you take a look at the teams that drafted/signed linemen to support their offenses... Miami, NY Jets, Baltimore, San Diego, Denver, Giants, Minny, Atlanta... These teams (if not there yet) are all up and coming right now. I think these few examples speak volumes about what NOT to do in our current situation.

[Passizle]

I don't need to defend my posting history. It is far more accurate and insightful than the vast majority here.

Put me on ignore or take it to PM.

Never mind. I wont get into it with you. PCS is right.

[Passizle]

i cant believe people are so thick that they dont understand this. THE OLINE WILL BE ADDRESSED PEOPLE. not taking a guy at 4 doesnt mean the oline is a non issue and our 2009 line is coming back.

we will probably have 4 new starters on the oline, most of them will hopefully and probably be young, and i wouldnt be surprised to see 2 rookies in there, which is more than enough. some of you advocating starting 3-4 rookies on the oline are just living on mars.

Well then, I guess the real question is do you think that any QB in this draft class is worth the #4 pick. IMO, not one is worth top ten money.

[SoCalSkins]

Can you say narcissism? Sheesh dude. Come down from there... you might get hurt.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Where is the proof on this. Just take a look at the teams that have finished poorly in the past decade. Most of the teams that had the same "knee jerk" reaction (that you are expressing) have not turned it around.

San Fran reached for the QB and failed

Detroit reached for the QB and failed

Houston reached for the QB and failed

Buffalo reached for a QB and failed

Oakland reached and failed

KC reached and failed

Chicago reached and failed

AZ reached and failed

Cleveland reached and failed

Then, you take a look at the teams that drafted/signed linemen to support their offenses... Miami, NY Jets, Baltimore, San Diego, Denver, Giants, Minny, Atlanta... These teams (if not there yet) are all up and coming right now. I think these few examples speak volumes about what NOT to do in our current situation.

none of those teams reached, they just failed with QBs. it happens, you move on. the chargers failed with leaf. did they hault and stop drafting QBs? no. they took brees, then took rivers. if they had the same mentality youre displaying theyd have drafted two left tackles instead of two of the best QBs in the NFL.

busting on a QB is common, just like busting on any position is common. weve busted on two QBs last decade. its time to attempt to find another one. i know you know the old saying "if at first you dont succeed, try try again"?

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Well then, I guess the real question is do you think that any QB in this draft class is worth the #4 pick. IMO, not one is worth top ten money.

i think bradford is. hes accurate, smart, and has a big enough frame that he can add weight to it so it wont be as "lanky" as he currently is.

if his shoulder is good to go, hes our guy. now if his shoulder is not right, id like to see us trade down, and snag two OTs in the first round, and use that 2nd rounder on a runningback or linebacker.