CNN: Girl's arrest for doodling raises concerns about zero tolerance

[MattFancy]

I wouldn't assume to know.

So then it's not the schools fault but the police?

Gotcha! Just don't harm the innocent 12 year old!

Dude no one is agreeing with you. She is an innocent 12 y/o. What did she do to harm anyone else? She wrote on a school desk. Hell, I used to do that all the time. Did I ever get arrested? Nope. I remember when I was at Frostburg there was one desk in one of the classrooms that was covered in writing from people who sat there. It was kinda cool reading some of the stuff on there. Doubt anyone was arrested for that.

[GibbsFactor]

Dude no one is agreeing with you. She is an innocent 12 y/o. What did she do to harm anyone else? She wrote on a school desk. Hell, I used to do that all the time. Did I ever get arrested? Nope. I remember when I was at Frostburg there was one desk in one of the classrooms that was covered in writing from people who sat there. It was kinda cool reading some of the stuff on there. Doubt anyone was arrested for that.

See my point?

Again, it's excessive but effective and done by the books.

It sounds like you all want the books to be changed. Fine. Write to your lawmakers. That's all I'm saying. She broke a law. End of story. If everyone is disagreeing with me then everyone is discriminatory towards little 12 year old taggers and that's hateful to all the other 12 year olds that don't tag and those that simply aren't 12.

:mad:

[MattFancy]

See my point?

Again, it's excessive but effective and done by the books.

It sounds like you all want the books to be changed. Fine. Write to your lawmakers. That's all I'm saying. She broke a law. End of story. If everyone is disagreeing with me then everyone is discriminatory towards little 12 year old taggers and that's hateful to all the other 12 year olds that don't tag and those that simply aren't 12.

:mad:

So should people get arrested for doing 58 in a 55? That's pretty much what this is. Its something minor. There were plenty of other ways to discipline her and teach her a lesson, having her arrested in front of her classmates was not one of them. Make her clean all the desks, that would probably have been more effective than arresting her. If I had to sit there and scrub desks for a few hours, there's no way I'd write on one again.

[GibbsFactor]

So should people get arrested for doing 58 in a 55? That's pretty much what this is. Its something minor. There were plenty of other ways to discipline her and teach her a lesson, having her arrested in front of her classmates was not one of them. Make her clean all the desks, that would probably have been more effective than arresting her. If I had to sit there and scrub desks for a few hours, there's no way I'd write on one again.

Would I give you a ticket for going 58 in a 55? No.

Could you get a ticket for going 58 in a 55?

Would I arrest your 12 year old girl for doing anything short of armed robbery/murder? No.

Could your 12 year old girl get arrested for breaking the law?

I left your questions unanswered. Feel free to respond.

[polywog999]

See my point?

Again, it's excessive but effective and done by the books.

It sounds like you all want the books to be changed. Fine. Write to your lawmakers. That's all I'm saying. She broke a law. End of story. If everyone is disagreeing with me then everyone is discriminatory towards little 12 year old taggers and that's hateful to all the other 12 year olds that don't tag and those that simply aren't 12.

:mad:

Grey area. I don't think, if this were up to most cops I know, that anyone gets arrested. The law does not "have" to be changed, but it needs to be properly enforced. Should a five year old be arrested for the same thing? It's a judgment call.

[GibbsFactor]

Grey area. I don't think, if this were up to most cops I know, that anyone gets arrested. The law does not "have" to be changed, but it needs to be properly enforced. Should a five year old be arrested for the same thing? It's a judgment call.

No. Grey areas are determined by

1. The offended (in this case the school district/teacher) since they make the initial complaint.

2. The Judge or jury.

The cop gets called, the cop does his job. Had the cop laughed at the teacher, then who's not doing their job? Again, all I am saying is that she broke a law she could be arrested for and is arrested. What is the problem?

[polywog999]

No. Grey areas are determined by

1. The offended (in this case the school district/teacher) since they make the initial complaint.

2. The Judge or jury.

The cop gets called, the cop does his job. Had the cop laughed at the teacher, then who's not doing their job? Again, all I am saying is that she broke a law she could be arrested for and is arrested. What is the problem?

Cops do not always make the arrest. Sometimes they laugh it off, and yes, they are doing their job.

I'm sick and tired of people who abuse the judicial system to make a statement.

[adam@section118]

No. Grey areas are determined by

1. The offended (in this case the school district/teacher) since they make the initial complaint.

2. The Judge or jury.

The cop gets called, the cop does his job. Had the cop laughed at the teacher, then who's not doing their job? Again, all I am saying is that she broke a law she could be arrested for and is arrested. What is the problem?

I have to disagree with this notion.

From my previous experience working with and around L.E.O's I do not agree with you assesment. A L.E.O wears many hats, and one of them is that of a "counselor" or "mediator". As a L.E.O you have the authority to scold the girl and inform her she "could" go to jail, and to scare the living beejeezus out of her, but you do not HAVE to take her away in cuffs.

Now you can argue that is what the school wanted, but in my opinion that is a vast overreaction. You can also argue that cop HAD to do that, but in that case I call abuse of power. You never HAVE to issue a ticket, just like an RA in college never has to write you up. There is also a "gray area" and those areas are left open to the discretion of the officer.

I would bet you a dollar to a doughnut (pun intended) that if this were to happen again all parties would respond differently.

[Capt. Kaos]

Dude no one is agreeing with you. She is an innocent 12 y/o. What did she do to harm anyone else? She wrote on a school desk. Hell, I used to do that all the time. Did I ever get arrested? Nope. I remember when I was at Frostburg there was one desk in one of the classrooms that was covered in writing from people who sat there. It was kinda cool reading some of the stuff on there. Doubt anyone was arrested for that.

The hell there isnt someone agreeing with him.........

She is NOT an innocent 12 year old, she lost that title when she broke the law. I think what some people are not seeing in this is that there is a Zero Tolerance policy in place, Zero Tolerance means Zero Tolerance, I dont care if she was jotting down her ABC's or multiplication table.

Now before I get crucified, I do think that more blame should be placed on her parents for not making her more aware of the rules and how to live within them. I have a 12 year old and without a doubt she knows the rules and she also knows what can/will happen if she chooses to not follow them.

The arguement that "I did it so it's ok" is about as ridiculous of an arguement that I have ever heard. Following that logic I can knock about 20-30 laws off the books. Everyone will be happy to know that there isnt alot of CDS left on the list that can get you in trouble. I did them so it's ok now!

[Special K]

So then it's not the schools fault but the police?

Gotcha! Just don't harm the innocent 12 year old!

You're being unreasonable.

There is a thing called "discretion" in application of the law.

Discretion could have been used and this handled by the police in a different manner.

Only fools go through life doing everything "exactly by the book" without applying a little logic and common sense to each individual situation.

[GibbsFactor]

You're being unreasonable.

There is a thing called "discretion" in application of the law.

Discretion could have been used and this handled by the police in a different manner.

Only fools go through life doing everything "exactly by the book" without applying a little logic and common sense to each individual situation.

I agree that I am playing devil's advocate.

Since when are we not surrounded by fools?

[CaptChaos86]

When i was like 8 or 9 i wrote on the wall outside of my dentist office one time with some tree bark or something. And they called and told my mom and i went and cleaned it off and then mom painted my back porch red, and that was enough for me to know not to go around "vandalizing" stuff. I learned my lesson and no handcuffs were needed. I cant imagine being hauled off in handcuffs at 12 years old, that kinda stuff cannot be good for the psyche of a 12 year old.

[ljs]

in a town in WA state, a 5 yr old boy was expelled a couple weeks ago because he pointed his fingers like a gun toward the ground. Not a suspension- Expelled for the rest of the year! Ridiculous. I will say this school is primarily Hispanic, very poor part of town full of crime and gang members. Not sure if those circumstances have people over reacting.

http://www.kndu.com/Global/story.asp?S=11979866&nav=menu484_2_7

[Destino]

Giant waste of tax payer money, time, and resources.... all to teach a little girl a lesson that could have been hammered home with a phone call to mom and detention. I am so glad I'm not a young person today.

[Destino]

in a town in WA state, a 5 yr old boy was expelled a couple weeks ago because he pointed his fingers like a gun toward the ground. Not a suspension- Expelled for the rest of the year! Ridiculous. I will say this school is primarily Hispanic, very poor part of town full of crime and gang members. Not sure if those circumstances have people over reacting.

http://www.kndu.com/Global/story.asp?S=11979866&nav=menu484_2_7

Children need to be taught... not held accountable the way you'd hold an adult. They are kids the one the one safe bet is that they will screw up and make mistakes.

[Skin'Em84]

She defaced school property, thus breaking the law.

I wouldn't formally charge her but I bet she never draws on the desk again, her classmates won't either.

Are you kidding?

If this happened at my middle school we'd all be drawing on the desks.

[GibbsFactor]

Are you kidding?

If this happened at my middle school we'd all be drawing on the desks.

That would be a great thing to see!

My point in this thread was simply to highlight the merits of zero tolerance. I think people forget how scary our school system is. If a zero tolerance policy is to work, it needs to be consistent. Consistency is the key to raising children. It's tough because of times like this. But what might happen is the children learn that it's okay to break the law some times. It may be obvious to most when that is, but not to all.

[81artmonk]

I'm not saying its ok, just don't see the point of arresting a 12 y/o girl. Should she be punished? Of course. Give her detention, suspend her, make her clean all the desks or something. But arresting her for drawing on a desk? That just seems a litte too much to me.

When did I say anything different than what you just said?

[ACW]

I get weary of this zero tolerance BS. It's annoying. To begin with, it's a fascist concept; it's what Hitler and Stalin practiced. It allows for no exceptions or compassion of any kind. All is black and white-no gradations. But even more important, it doesn't solve anything. The use of such a slogan simply allows whichever company, school, or municipality is using it to claim they're doing something about a problem when, in fact, nothing is being done at all and the problem is being ignored. It's a cosmetic nonsolution designed to impress simpletons. Whenever you hear the phrase zero tolerance, remember, someone is BSing you.

[81artmonk]

I'm not saying its ok, just don't see the point of arresting a 12 y/o girl. Should she be punished? Of course. Give her detention, suspend her, make her clean all the desks or something. But arresting her for drawing on a desk? That just seems a litte too much to me.

It depends on the context on the situation. If the person were an adult, or like even a 15-17 year teenager writing profanity or in appropriate things on a desk or wall, even then some disciplinary action such as "fix it" or "pay for the repairs" would be justified.

But this is a CHILD we are talking about here. A 12 year old, most likely prepubescent CHILD who doodled for fun. Yes she should have gotten in trouble and made to fix it. But when do you say overkill punishment is alright?

This was overkill, and I would have been furious if I were the girl's father. They have every right to take this to court.

I said that arresting her was excessive. Punishment should have been handed out. Had it not been able to come off, I would charge the parent for a desk. In the situation I pointed out you prior, I think suspension and making the parent not only pay a legal fine for vandalism but also a ticketed fine.

[Riggins77]

She defaced school property, thus breaking the law.

I wouldn't formally charge her but I bet she never draws on the desk again, her classmates won't either.

Dude, get over it. She's 12 years old! That means she is in 7th grade.

[81artmonk]

You never cease to amaze me :doh:

There is no one saying it's "ok" genius, they are saying this punishment is a gross over-reaction to a common minor crime committed by almost every child that ever passed through the US school system (marker, pencil, pen w/e - you all did this at some point or age, and you damn well know it.)

This warranted detention at the very most given that she is not a repeat offender.

<edit> The miscarriage of justice here is offensive. The waste of taxpayer dollars here is offensive. The fact that some of you support this is absolutely mind boggling.

And when did I say anyone didn't say it was ok? I also said the same thing(read my original post) reading is fundamental.

[81artmonk]

Did they go overboard. Sure. Did she deserve to be punished. sure. I think zero tolerance doesn't work. However, I am a firm believer in towing the line with kids her age and as they get older.

Case in point, my wifes school has a principal who believes in saving the kids not punishing them. Thus, anarchy rules her school. Everyone chews gum. Food fights at lunch. No respect for teachers (ie talking back.)

Teachers have stopped writting referrals since he (the principal) only talks with them, tries to reach them, and sends them back unpunished.

One kid with multiple (like 20 or more) referrals, was offered a new skateboard if he behaved. Serious??

So punishment needs to dished out. at some point or the kids run the school. Again while I think the handcuffs and arrest were over the top, suspension and a vandalism fine to the parents are not. Had it been pencil which can be erased, lower punishment, but marker, higher punishment.

[ACW]

Just be glad she wasn't using Wall-E stickers to vandalize

[HighOnHendrix]

The hell there isnt someone agreeing with him.........

She is NOT an innocent 12 year old, she lost that title when she broke the law. I think what some people are not seeing in this is that there is a Zero Tolerance policy in place, Zero Tolerance means Zero Tolerance, I dont care if she was jotting down her ABC's or multiplication table.

If you re-read the thread you'll notice that the outrage is over the excessive reaction of the school to a minor violation. And I would contend that she really didn't lose her innocence until she got shackled and drug off to the hoosegow. Zero Tolerance policies are a load of crap, all they do is remove good judgement from every situation they're involved in.