CNN: US Missionaries Charged with Kidnapping in Haiti

[Perky72]

There are still open questions, not to mention they did break the law so I hope they're prosecuted, and if found guilty given jail terms. Or, with what little we know, at least that leader. The others would still be guilty as "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but perhaps could be spared.

One thing that bugs me is the claim that the parents could visit their children after they were in DR any time they wanted. Just how could this group, which sought no legal right to do this and is either ignorant or uncaring of Haitian (and possibly Dominican) law guarantee that? Saying something like that tends to make me think of this as fraud and actual kidnapping via coercian and lies rather than a mutual and fully honest exchange from the parents.

In no way should this be construed as Haiti's fault. No more than it would be the US' fault for detaining and thinking of prosecuting a Haitian missionary group who'd tried to abscond with children after Katrina.

[Koolblue13]

Sounds like an honest mistake. I don't see what good it would do to throw these people in jail. They are clearly not a threat to anyone.

They also weren't stealing your children.

Don't worry, your kids are only going on a little vacation, to America, to new homes, to new families, they'll be okay, because we're Americans and we are better than you.

In such a time as this for Haiti, who already has a problem with child trafficking, people want to go and steal other peoples children, is despicable. And doing it in the name of God, doesn't make it "okay".

[Special K]

I actually put a link to this story when it first came out in the Haiti earthquake thread because I was so pissed off at these missionaries.

Missionaries like this really, really bother me, like REALLY bother me. I am not okay with people going into another country and pretty much imposing their will (breaking laws, strong-arming parents into giving up their children) because they will give the kids the proverbial "better life." That's absolute horse****. It's so arrogant it makes me sick.

Just because you can provide material things to a child does not mean you are giving the child a "better" life. It's all relative. I would say enabling a child to grow up surrounded by their culture and their loving family, working WITHIN a country to make it better is a much more humble, sustainable, and proper approach.

Now, if a child is truly without family or abandoned, then yeah, I am okay with international adoption. But follow the country's legal process, don't just do whatever you think's best. Idiots.

As for their punishment, I don't think they should be kept in prison. I do however think they should have the crap fined out them and ALL that money should be transparently utilized to promote Haitian orphans' plight.

[Special K]

While it may be against the law, even from the outside looking in, it seems pretty obvious that good intension were there. Yet Haiti is acting as if this was some hideous case of child slavery occuring. Considering what we as americans are doing to help out, Haiti should be a little more understanding and less stringent about how they are administering justice.

Dear Lordie, you act as if these people were caught stealing a friggin cookie.

These were children, with FAMILIES, that were kidnapped and taken across the border (good intentions or not).

Just because America and the international community is "helping" Haiti during this crisis does not give Americans (and other misguided-but-well-meaning missionaries) carte blanche on removing children from their homeland. Haiti has every right to prosecute these missionaries.

I don't think they should impose any type of serious jail time because I don't think that does anyone any good, but these people most definitely need to be punished for being a bunch of morons and doing this.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I actually put a link to this story when it first came out in the Haiti earthquake thread because I was so pissed off at these missionaries.

Missionaries like this really, really bother me, like REALLY bother me. I am not okay with people going into another country and pretty much imposing their will (breaking laws, strong-arming parents into giving up their children) because they will give the kids the proverbial "better life." That's absolute horse****. It's so arrogant it makes me sick.

Just because you can provide material things to a child does not mean you are giving the child a "better" life. It's all relative. I would say enabling a child to grow up surrounded by their culture and their loving family, working WITHIN a country to make it better is a much more humble, sustainable, and proper approach.

Now, if a child is truly without family or abandoned, then yeah, I am okay with international adoption. But follow the country's legal process, don't just do whatever you think's best. Idiots.

As for their punishment, I don't think they should be kept in prison. I do however think they should have the crap fined out them and ALL that money should be transparently utilized to promote Haitian orphans' plight.

Amen Keeastman. In seminary we had more than one full time missionary come in to teach us about the arrogance that many short term missionaries take overseas with them, and how if we are really going there to help then we go to help in the ways that are really helpful rather than simply imposing our own will upon the people or the nation. This group really does sound like the worst examples of that arrogance.

[Special K]

Amen Keeastman. In seminary we had more than one full time missionary come in to teach us about the arrogance that many short term missionaries take overseas with them, and how if we are really going there to help then we go to help in the ways that are really helpful rather than simply imposing our own will upon the people or the nation. This group really does sound like the worst examples of that arrogance.

My grandparents as well as my uncle's family were medical missionaries for years when I was growing up, primarily throughout Africa and southeast Asia. Anyway, that was always one thing these would always talk about with their stories, how it is so destructive to go into another country and another culture acting like you are better than them, like you know what's best and they should do what you say, no questions asked.

This concept has also been drilled into our heads in our global health program: under no circumstances do you go into another country and arrogantly tell the people "what's best" for them. You listen to them, figure out their specific needs, and try to work WITH them to design programs, etc. that you BOTH can implement within their country to enhance services, whether they be medical, infrastructure, religious, whatever. That way, the changes you help make can last...even after your departure. Sustainability.

I think most missionaries, NGO's, and other people working overseas get this concept...it kind of IS common sense, afterall. It's a shame these people didn't and are painting a bad picture of humanitarian aid to the Haitians and the rest of the world.

[81artmonk]

So Haiti should set aside the law and the very clear instructions that they were giving to any and all seeking to take kids out of the country just because the people were from a church?

Everyone agrees that they were there to help, everyone agrees that many of the children were given to the group, and everyone now agrees that the leader knew that the proper paperwork was not in order for them to remove the kids from the country. 9 of the 10 missionaries will most likely be released because they didn't know that the paperwork wasn't in order. Now, tell us 81ArtMonk why shouldn't the leader be charged? I mean we're all about legal entry into the US from destitute central American nations why now are we setting the law aside for American missionaries?

Why? because they were helping and not kidnapping. I could probably go over there right now, and find illegal procedures being done every day with regard to aiding/relief effort for the haitian people, but most of it will be overlooked becuase the country has been devastated by tragedy, and in times of desperation certian rules are set aside to get the job done.

I have acknowledged that they weren't the smartest tools in the shed, but I do believe it is obvious to all who read about this incident that no harm was being administered and only good was trying to be done for the betterment of these kids.

They are being treated as if they were stealing kids and going to use them for some illegal service. It's a well known fact even from the parents and others involves that their intentions were honorable yet flawed. IMO that isn't something that they should be going through this for.

[81artmonk]

Dear Lordie, you act as if these people were caught stealing a friggin cookie.

These were children, with FAMILIES, that were kidnapped and taken across the border (good intentions or not).

WRONG! They were transporting kids from one orphanage to another. I'd hardly consider that kidnapping. They families had given permission and so had the directors of the other orphange.

Just because America and the international community is "helping" Haiti during this crisis does not give Americans (and other misguided-but-well-meaning missionaries) carte blanche on removing children from their homeland. Haiti has every right to prosecute these missionaries.

I don't think they should impose any type of serious jail time because I don't think that does anyone any good, but these people most definitely need to be punished for being a bunch of morons and doing this.

Sorry I don't agree. I agree they were morons, but what they did isn't worthy of what they are going through. They were trying to help, were well intentioned and now are being treated as if they are some evil kidnappers.

I think they should be let go. I'm pretty sure that this whole time being jailed and going through this is enough to cure them of any future misguided intentions.

[Kosher Ham]

Personally, I don't care about Haiti.

There are enough problems in this country that we are not fixing that should be a priority.

[DeanCollins]

Apparently 9 of them didn't know that "Laura" the leader of the group, didn't have any documentation. I'd be wanting to choke-a-***** right about now.

Gotta love them church ladies.

[DeanCollins]

I actually put a link to this story when it first came out in the Haiti earthquake thread because I was so pissed off at these missionaries.

Missionaries like this really, really bother me, like REALLY bother me. I am not okay with people going into another country and pretty much imposing their will (breaking laws, strong-arming parents into giving up their children) because they will give the kids the proverbial "better life." That's absolute horse****. It's so arrogant it makes me sick.

Just because you can provide material things to a child does not mean you are giving the child a "better" life. It's all relative. I would say enabling a child to grow up surrounded by their culture and their loving family, working WITHIN a country to make it better is a much more humble, sustainable, and proper approach.

Now, if a child is truly without family or abandoned, then yeah, I am okay with international adoption. But follow the country's legal process, don't just do whatever you think's best. Idiots.

As for their punishment, I don't think they should be kept in prison. I do however think they should have the crap fined out them and ALL that money should be transparently utilized to promote Haitian orphans' plight.

omg, we actually agree on something :pfft:

[AsburySkinsFan]

I have acknowledged that they weren't the smartest tools in the shed, but I do believe it is obvious to all who read about this incident that no harm was being administered and only good was trying to be done for the betterment of these kids.

Since when is intent an excuse for breaking the law? The Haitian government made it abundantly clear to groups like these that they were NOT to take kids out of the country without the approved documentation, this was no secret, the group themselves were warned by a Dominican official no-less that they did not have the proper paperwork and still they (or she the leader if you believe the story) flaunted the Haitian government's rules. You'd be screaming bloody murder is someone flaunted US regulations on something like this. Remember two things:

1. The Haitian government put out very specific restrictions on removing kids from the country, restrictions that everyone else seems to be abiding by, including those who have current adoption paperwork in process but not completed.

2. The team (or leader) was previously warned about not having that paperwork completed.

They (or the leader) was wrong and knew it. You can try to do a good thing and still be wrong in the way you do it. Like feeding the hungry by stealing from a grocery store.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm pretty sure that this whole time being jailed and going through this is enough to cure them of any future misguided intentions.

That we agree upon, and honestly I think that's the way it will flush out.

Personally, I don't care about Haiti.

There are enough problems in this country that we are not fixing that should be a priority.

Well thanks for chiming in with your "I don't care", it was very helpful.

[Kosher Ham]

Yeah, I guess I am not a humanitarian or patriot because I want to start with taking care of our own.

BTW, You're welcome.

[Special K]

WRONG! They were transporting kids from one orphanage to another. I'd hardly consider that kidnapping. They families had given permission and so had the directors of the other orphange.

This is incorrect. They were transporting these children across an international border without proper documentation. That is kidnapping, whether their intentions were good or not.

omg, we actually agree on something :pfft:

I am never talking to you again as I would like to end on this happy note, lol!

Why? because they were helping and not kidnapping. I could probably go over there right now, and find illegal procedures being done every day with regard to aiding/relief effort for the haitian people, but most of it will be overlooked becuase the country has been devastated by tragedy, and in times of desperation certian rules are set aside to get the job done.

No, that's not how things are done and yes, rules still apply in the aftermath of a disaster.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Haiti is so last month.

[PCS]

Oh boy.

Haiti: lawyer representing US missionaries sacked

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7182498/Haiti-lawyer-representing-US-missionaries-sacked.html

[Special K]

Oh boy.

Haiti: lawyer representing US missionaries sacked

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7182498/Haiti-lawyer-representing-US-missionaries-sacked.html

Well that's shocking. Not.

The government there is so corrupt, it's one of the primary reasons Haiti has been a complete cluster. I was hesitant to say that I thought these missionaries should be fined for what they did because in all reality, the fines would simply line the pockets of government officials. That's why I put my qualifier in about the money being transparently used...which is a total pipe dream and would never happen.

I've had a lot of interesting discussions with the higher ups of the NGO I'm working with now over here in Africa. I had lunch with our NGO's Madagascar Country Director last weekend and we talked a lot about Haiti and what's happening over there. Just prior to Madagascar, he and his family had been stationed in Haiti for three years. The picture he painted of what's going on over there, government-wise, and general attitude-wise is beyond bleak. He was completely honest and said that he didn't ever see any hope for Haiti, ever. My mouth dropped when I heard him admit that. It was like, complete resignation to the fact that that country, in his opinion from his experience, is just beyond help (and this is a guy who was raised in Malawi and has worked in many of the poorest African nations).

Anyway, this story about corruption just got me back to thinking about that conversation I'd had with him. I've never heard someone that high up in an NGO just totally admit defeat. I'm not saying that Haiti is past the point of no return, I've never been there and have no idea...it was just a very interesting conversation.

[twa]

60K? lawyers in Haiti ain't doing too badly

[81artmonk]

Since when is intent an excuse for breaking the law? The Haitian government made it abundantly clear to groups like these that they were NOT to take kids out of the country without the approved documentation, this was no secret, the group themselves were warned by a Dominican official no-less that they did not have the proper paperwork and still they (or she the leader if you believe the story) flaunted the Haitian government's rules. You'd be screaming bloody murder is someone flaunted US regulations on something like this. Remember two things:

1. The Haitian government put out very specific restrictions on removing kids from the country, restrictions that everyone else seems to be abiding by, including those who have current adoption paperwork in process but not completed.

2. The team (or leader) was previously warned about not having that paperwork completed.

They (or the leader) was wrong and knew it. You can try to do a good thing and still be wrong in the way you do it. Like feeding the hungry by stealing from a grocery store.

As I stated before, I don't think they were very bright. I think they used their zeal for wanting to do good to override what should have been done. In that I think time served and let go and this all will teach them a lesson. hopefully. Next time, if they screw up like this, the deserve what they get.

[81artmonk]

Oh boy.

Haiti: lawyer representing US missionaries sacked

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/7182498/Haiti-lawyer-representing-US-missionaries-sacked.html

Did I read that right? That guys name is (sounds like a male body part)??

[Prosperity]

Sounds like an honest mistake. I don't see what good it would do to throw these people in jail. They are clearly not a threat to anyone.

exactly

[Zguy28]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2010-02-11-haiti-missionary-decision_N.htm

Haiti judge says missionaries should be freed

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti (AP) — The Haitian judge deciding whether 10 U.S. missionaries should face trial on charges of trying to take a busload of children out of the country says he will recommend that they be released.

Judge Bernard Saint-Vil must now send his recommendation to the prosecutor, who may agree or object, but the judge has the final authority to decide whether they stay in custody or go free.

Saint-Vil made his recommendation a day after questioning the Americans and hearing testimony from parents who said they willingly gave their children to the Baptist missionaries, believing they would educate and care for them.

"After listening to the families, I see the possibility that they can all be released," Saint-Vil told The Associated Press. "I am recommending that all 10 Americans be released."

Full article at link

[NOLASKINSFAN]

Their swift departure from Haiti began a day earlier when Judge Bernard Saint-Vil said eight of the 10 missionaries were free to leave without bail because parents of the children had testified they voluntarily gave their children to the missionaries believing the Americans would give them a better life.

"The parents gave their kids away voluntarily," Saint-Vil said in explaining his decision."

Looks like they may have been innocent all along, interesting how excited some get when they think they may have something on Christians.

Full Link

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586522,00.html

[mardi gras skin]

I've never heard someone that high up in an NGO just totally admit defeat. I'm not saying that Haiti is past the point of no return, I've never been there and have no idea...it was just a very interesting conversation.

We just had a very similar conversation with someone from the DR who is working with pastors in Haiti. He's worked all over Latin America, Africa, and Asia and he he's seen some bad stuff. Haiti shocks him.

He's convinced that the best way to make change is in very small situations that might fly under the radar. Over the past several years, they've built relationships with less than a dozen pastors of small/poor churches and they're working with these guys to direct very small scale initiatives. Basically, he thinks its going to take thousands of small initiatives rather than larger more organized campaigns in order to work under the government radar.

And he says that the Haitian government is working overtime to take control of all the aide money pouring into their country. :mad: