Peyton Manning says Jason Campbell's sounded positive - guess not - MODS LOCK THIS

[Geoff_K]

if we got higher than a 5th rounder I would say it is a success.

I'd take a 6th next year with conditions that would bump it to a 5th. Just get him outta here p l e a s e.

[KokoMike]

I'm watching SportsCenter, with McNabb and Young.

They are talking about quarterback "Pocket Manipulation" abilities.

Young thinks Manning is best because he has no legs. He just somehow gets it done, all the time. McNabb thinks Brees is best, cause he has legs and can move around.

We have Campbell. A guy who has legs and can't move around. Go figure.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

It would be hard for me to get good grades in school too if I had to learn a new ****ing language every year of my life and then had my family bash the **** out of me for not performing well.

Changing systems every other year is not learning a new language. I would compare it to changing schools every year. Certainly far from an ideal situation, but an A student is not going to become a C or D student because of that.

The fact is, there are quarterback skills that TRANSCEND the system. Pocket awareness. Accuracy, especially deep accuracy. Release. Reading the defense. If you cannot proficiently read defenses after 5-6 seasons in the NFL, you cannot read defenses. Period. That is a skill that is not contingent on system, it is contingent on the quarterback's mental aptitude. If you cannot throw an accurate deep ball after 5-6 seasons in the NFL, you cannot throw it. If you can't feel the rush or show good pocket awareness after 5-6 seasons...you get the point. Granted, Campbell isn't wholly incapable of doing these things - but he to this point seems incapable of doing them on any kind of consistent basis.

No matter how much development time Campbell gets, no matter how long he's in the same system, he is what he is - a quarterback who will never be better than slightly above average. We cannot accept that going forward, not if we want to get #4 and beyond.

tl;dr - campbell DOES have excuses but his deficiencies just happen to be those that said excuses don't excuse.

[grego]

It would be hard for me to get good grades in school too if I had to learn a new ****ing language every year of my life and then had my family bash the **** out of me for not performing well.

not a bad analogy.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Bottom Line..

Even the best QB in the game will fail in Washington because we have no stability.

You can't blame JC

How is this the "bottom line," when the QB position itself has been unstable for almost 20 years here? If anything, "a great" QB WOULD help stabilize this franchise.

[darrelgreenie]

Changing systems every other year is not learning a new language. I would compare it to changing schools every year. Certainly far from an ideal situation, but an A student is not going to become a C or D student because of that.

Analogies in general usually don't convey the intended sentiment.

Playing QB in the NFL is one of the most difficult things to do in sports.

I think your analogies demeans the effort it takes to be a good QB.

I would say changing systems and OC for a NFL QB would be like starting to learn non-euclidean geometry then learning euclidean geometry.

Here's another maybe better analogy.

Imagine you're a being taught be a concert level muscian by teacher X then the next year your asked to switch instruments yet continue to train to become concert level muscian with a different instrument.

After 2 year who do you think will be closer to becoming a concert level muscian? Someone with the same instructor with the same instrument or someone that switched instruments and instructors?

No matter how much development time Campbell gets, no matter how long he's in the same system, he is what he is - a quarterback who will never be better than slightly above average. We cannot accept that going forward, not if we want to get #4 and beyond.

How do you know this?

You cannot know what Campbell would be in the same system, with good coaching, behind a good, because all these factors haven't happened over a signifcant amount of time.

What we do know is that Campbell has developed to the point where he can be the 15th rated QB in the NFL despite having one of the worst OL's in the league, no running game, and a coaching/playcalling circus.

Campbell was an NFL rarity a good QB on a bad team.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

This notion that JC has changed systems every year is pretty funny. He was in Saunders' system for two years and Zorn's system for two years. In fact, he's only spent a single year in one system since arriving in DC, and that was in '05, the only year he never saw the field. He had two offseasons to study Saunders' system, plus 5-6 games at the end of 2006, and two full years in Zorn's system as a starter.

Also, I'm not sure what's so impressive about "being the 15th rated" QB on a bad team. Certainly no one would rank him above guys like Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, and McNabb, just because Campbell probably threw 50-80 more throws because his team was in garbage situations so often last year.

It would be pretty cool if, instead of throwing around stats that are out-of-context, Campbell's supporters could tell us what Campbell does well--what makes him a bright prospect. Yet, all we ever get are hollow stats and arguments about other areas of the team. If he were a true prospect, it would be quite easy to focus on his skill set; no one needs to cite stats or discuss the Colts' WR's and OL to demonstrate what makes Manning a good QB.

[grego]

because his team was in garbage situations so often last year.

can you define what you mean by 'garbage situations'?

i've counted maybe 3 TD's where the skins were down by more than 2 scores and with no real chance of coming back.

also, if campbell did have a few 'garbage TD's', how does that compare to other QB's. in other words, how many TD's should we discount by other QB's as oppsosed to campbells?

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

also, if campbell did have a few 'garbage TD's', how does that compare to other QB's. in other words, how many TD's should we discount by other QB's as oppsosed to campbells?

You mean like the ones who led their teams to the playoffs and played in a more balanced attack?

Also, have you all actually looked at the rankings? Saying that JC finished "15th" isn't saying much; wow, he finished better than studs like David G., Vince Young, and Alex Smith. I made a mistake on McNabb earlier, btw. The only notable QB's he finished "ahead" of were Matt Ryan (plays in a run-heavy offense), and Carson Palmer, who attempted like 60 fewer passes, and Cutler (who, while talented, has a problem throwing INT's). That's it. Doesn't really mean much, then, that he "finished 15th."

Still waiting for you stat geeks to put away the stat sheets for once and focus on things like this footwork, ability to process a field, and accuracy--all skills that can be evaluated regardless of the surrounding talent.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Oh, and Ryan also only played in 14 games.

[RedskinPryde]

Peyton Manning IS his own OC.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

This notion that JC has changed systems every year is pretty funny. He was in Saunders' system for two years and Zorn's system for two years. In fact, he's only spent a single year in one system since arriving in DC, and that was in '05, the only year he never saw the field. He had two offseasons to study Saunders' system, plus 5-6 games at the end of 2006, and two full years in Zorn's system as a starter.

Also, I'm not sure what's so impressive about "being the 15th rated" QB on a bad team. Certainly no one would rank him above guys like Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, and McNabb, just because Campbell probably threw 50-80 more throws because his team was in garbage situations so often last year.

It would be pretty cool if, instead of throwing around stats that are out-of-context, Campbell's supporters could tell us what Campbell does well--what makes him a bright prospect. Yet, all we ever get are hollow stats and arguments about other areas of the team. If he were a true prospect, it would be quite easy to focus on his skill set; no one needs to cite stats or discuss the Colts' WR's and OL to demonstrate what makes Manning a good QB.

and the most glaring indictment of how poor he really is, is that the team has made absolutely zero effort to even lock him up. good QBs or even good QB prospects do not sit around for 5 years without a new contract.

had campbell been worth anything or shown even anything resembling reason to be extended, it would have happened long ago. good QBs dont sit around without a new contract or even talks about one.

matt schaub, a guy who plenty of campbell supporters cant even bring themselves to admit is a a very good QB, just got a 10 million dollar extension. we argue about campbell being worthy of a stop gap contract and whether hes worth a 4th or 6th round draft pick. lol

[MustangSteve]

and the most glaring indictment of how poor he really is, is that the team has made absolutely zero effort to even lock him up. good QBs or even good QB prospects do not sit around for 5 years without a new contract.

had campbell been worth anything or shown even anything resembling reason to be extended, it would have happened long ago. good QBs dont sit around without a new contract or even talks about one.

matt schaub, a guy who plenty of campbell supporters cant even bring themselves to admit is a a very good QB, just got a 10 million dollar extension. we argue about campbell being worthy of a stop gap contract and whether hes worth a 4th or 6th round draft pick. lol

While he sits around, I don't see any other teams jumping all over him either. It's pretty bad when the Raiders aren't even interested

[Rocky52Mc]

Changing systems every other year is not learning a new language. I would compare it to changing schools every year. Certainly far from an ideal situation, but an A student is not going to become a C or D student because of that.

The fact is, there are quarterback skills that TRANSCEND the system. Pocket awareness. Accuracy, especially deep accuracy. Release. Reading the defense. If you cannot proficiently read defenses after 5-6 seasons in the NFL, you cannot read defenses. Period. That is a skill that is not contingent on system, it is contingent on the quarterback's mental aptitude. If you cannot throw an accurate deep ball after 5-6 seasons in the NFL, you cannot throw it. If you can't feel the rush or show good pocket awareness after 5-6 seasons...you get the point. Granted, Campbell isn't wholly incapable of doing these things - but he to this point seems incapable of doing them on any kind of consistent basis.

No matter how much development time Campbell gets, no matter how long he's in the same system, he is what he is - a quarterback who will never be better than slightly above average. We cannot accept that going forward, not if we want to get #4 and beyond.

tl;dr - campbell DOES have excuses but his deficiencies just happen to be those that said excuses don't excuse.

So I typed in google: "NFL offense is like a language"

First article that comes up - http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/34879289/How-to-learn-an-NFL-offense

From the man's mouth himself

"

Summary: The article presents information on offensive football techniques that should be possessed by the National Football League football teams' players. It is stated that each offense is different, it's like a foreign language and all the football players should learn a foreign language and have to get comfortable with things. It is stated that when a player gets to learn a different offense year in and year out, it teaches a player to adapt quickly to change.

Excerpt from Article: You can say upheaval is detrimental for a quarterback, but at the same time, you could say it helps you through the process. When you've got to learn a different offense year in and year out, it teaches you to adapt quickly, to change. One thing we're trying to get with the Redskins is stability, and that'll give us the opportunity to move to the next level.

But you have to try to learn from it. Each time I've been in a new offense, I've tried to take some of the similarities to something I've done in the past and compare it and try to understand it better.

The hardest thing is terminology. Each offense is different; the terminology is different. It's like a foreign language. All these guys, we have to learn a foreign language, and you have to get comfortable with things, even just saying the words. That's the hardest part.…"

I'll just say that those words are from the man himself, I think that it probably the most direct and accurate statement that you can get. If you disagree any further, you can try to get a hold of Jason himself and see if he'll agree with his own statement.

Sounds like it's not just ALL Campbell when he says "All these guys, WE have to learn a foreign language." Doesn't sound like he has complete control over the offense like you believe improved deep accuracy ect. ect. would do.

I would say this: Campbell is far from perfect and far from imperfect. That being said he has found himself between the OK and the GOOD of the NFL. He has leaned in both of these categories throughout his career and most recently his numbers REALLY improve and offer the evidence that he IS LEARNING AND PRODUCING. This adds up to a very solid quarterback.

[KokoMike]

I'm not one to defend Campbell, but the Skins don't have to do anything until March 1, I believe. Campbell, I'm sure would rather have a new CBA and be an unrestricted free agent, so it doesn't hurt him to wait.

When March 1 comes around, the Skins will need to tender him, at least, at about $1.5 million for one year. Given what happened last year, Campbell will be insulted, and it will get ugly, again. But, Campbell will have his defenders, so he will be a victim again.

I think last Spring Campbell said he did not trust the Redskins management. Correct me if I am wrong. Does anybody think he trusts management now? Given his college and pro history, does he trust anybody in management, except Sherman Smith? (That is one reason why I think he'll end up with the Seahawks)

I hope the Skins are finding a team that would pay well for Campbell. But, I don't think that is realistic.

More likely, in my opinion, the Skins are scoping out a package trade which will include Campbell. I hope they are. That would give us the best leverage to get the most we can from Campbell. We should be doing that with other players, as well.

I think we all know that if Campbell is on the roster at the beginning of training camp, we will have not been able to get a deal for him, again.

[HailGreen28]

For the umpteenth time: WHERE IN HIS STATEMENT DID PEYTON SAY THAT CANDLE HAD DONE WELL, OR WAS A GOOD QB?

ANYONE?

At best, Manning's statement was like looking at a car wreck and saying "poor guy". At worst, and probably closer to the truth, he's saying "well, here's one reason Candle sucks".

NEITHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT IS A COMPLIMENT!!!

[grego]

You mean like the ones who led their teams to the playoffs and played in a more balanced attack?

Also, have you all actually looked at the rankings? Saying that JC finished "15th" isn't saying much; wow, he finished better than studs like David G., Vince Young, and Alex Smith. I made a mistake on McNabb earlier, btw. The only notable QB's he finished "ahead" of were Matt Ryan (plays in a run-heavy offense), and Carson Palmer, who attempted like 60 fewer passes, and Cutler (who, while talented, has a problem throwing INT's). That's it. Doesn't really mean much, then, that he "finished 15th."

Still waiting for you stat geeks to put away the stat sheets for once and focus on things like this footwork, ability to process a field, and accuracy--all skills that can be evaluated regardless of the surrounding talent.

you said campbell ended up ranked 15th in part due to 'garbage situations'. i asked you to define that.

are you willing to do that? will you tell me how many of campbells TD's were in 'garbage' time?

also, not to distract you from the question, but your statement about QB's playing in a more balanced attack- is that an indictment of campbell? the RB's? the playcalling? the O line? i'm not sure what you meant by that.

[grego]

For the umpteenth time: WHERE IN HIS STATEMENT DID PEYTON SAY THAT CANDLE HAD DONE WELL, OR WAS A GOOD QB?

ANYONE?

dont you hate it when people ignore a simple question?

damn, dude. that sux.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

So I typed in google: "NFL offense is like a language"

Excerpt from Article: You can say upheaval is detrimental for a quarterback, but at the same time, you could say it helps you through the process. When you've got to learn a different offense year in and year out, it teaches you to adapt quickly, to change. One thing we're trying to get with the Redskins is stability, and that'll give us the opportunity to move to the next level.

But you have to try to learn from it. Each time I've been in a new offense, I've tried to take some of the similarities to something I've done in the past and compare it and try to understand it better

Nice try, but no. Learning an offense is hard, and it takes time. But at the end of the day, it has almost nothing to do with the factors I talked about - reading defenses, passing accuracy, mechanics, footwork, dealing with the pass rush...those are factors that are inherent in the quarterback, regardless of his newness or familiarity with the offense.

The fact is, Campbell, after 5 seasons, is not a fundamentally sound quarterback. He may make up for this by being familiar with the offense, to the point that he can memorize the playbook by rote, and compensate for his inherent...slowness...as a quarterback. But then, we could have just kept the Saunders Coryell and started TC, no?

I would say this: Campbell is far from perfect and far from imperfect. That being said he has found himself between the OK and the GOOD of the NFL. He has leaned in both of these categories throughout his career and most recently his numbers REALLY improve and offer the evidence that he IS LEARNING AND PRODUCING. This adds up to a very solid quarterback.

He's "learning" very slowly and "producing" very little.

And really, as OuterBanks noted, a lot of the guys he is ahead of rating-wise are better - some indubitably better - than him. Are you really going to argue that Campbell is better than Carson Palmer? Or Matt Ryan (who granted DID have a sophomore slump)? Vince Young who is probably equal to (or slightly better than) JC as a passer but makes up for it with being a playmaker with his legs (and is 26-13 as a starter with basically ZERO offensive support until this year)? Or Cutler who threw 27 TDs on a team with almost no offensive talent and a fairly mediocre line, with playcalling that can be fairly compared to that of Jim Zorn? Even a guy like Garrard has a longer history of success than Jason Campbell.

Really, a lot of the reasons used to justify Campbell's struggles can be used for a bunch of other QBs too. And they have won more, have a longer history of success, and generally have more of what makes successful QBs.

[Rocky52Mc]

Nice try, but no. Learning an offense is hard, and it takes time. But at the end of the day, it has almost nothing to do with the factors I talked about - reading defenses, passing accuracy, mechanics, footwork, dealing with the pass rush...those are factors that are inherent in the quarterback, regardless of his newness or familiarity with the offense.

I'm sorry man, I would take Campbell's word over yours any day. I have my own knowledge of football, which is specifically on defense. I know the toughness of the game and the work it requires. I would completely disagree with you and agree with him here. As far as your argument that he's barely improved - that's child's play. He's light years ahead of himself before Zorn got here. He was pro bowl worthy mid season last year. Jay Cutler is pathetic, we're not a pass oriented offense. We couldn't even run the ball well, yet he tops 3,600+ yards. A good KC game and a "beast" second game would have him over the "godlike" 4,000 yards passing in one of the ****tiest years in Redskins history.

It's not Campbell, it's the pieces around him not working with his positives all while influencing his negatives.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

. He's light years ahead of himself before Zorn got here. He was pro bowl worthy mid season last year.

Jay Cutler is pathetic, we're not a pass oriented offense.

I don't even know what you're trying to say by that. Cutler is a flawed QB imo, but he produces touchdowns. Something Campbell has not been able to do.

We couldn't even run the ball well, yet he tops 3,600+ yards.

Of course, it's easier to put up good looking passing numbers playing from behind against softer coverage (against bad teams too) when you're forced to pass the ball! He did put up a half decent YPA, but most of it came from YAC from short passes.

Really, name one good defense we played all year. Maybe the Broncos I guess. The Saints force a lot of TOs but give up a lot of yards. And then, two games erase nearly 3 seasons worth of failure amirite?

It's not Campbell, it's the pieces around him not working with his positives all while influencing his negatives.

It's never Campbell, it's always someone or something else. I used to think like this. And then I realized I've spent half a decade waiting for the lightbulb to come on.

[darrelgreenie]

At best, Manning's statement was like looking at a car wreck and saying "poor guy". At worst, and probably closer to the truth, he's saying "well, here's one reason Candle sucks".

NEITHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT IS A COMPLIMENT!!!

How you can get, 'well, here's one reason Candle sucks' from Manning's statement is funny, really...wow

Although Peyton isn't directly 'giving props' to Campbell he does admit that he thinks it would be hard to have success in Campbell's situation and that he doesn't think he would do well in the same situation.

Pay attention to the part in red its something that you and many of your cohorts are guilty of:

It's been a tremendous help to me, just the consistency, the same offense, the same verbiage, the same guy calling the plays in my ears for 12 years. I don't take that for granted in the least bit and so I see these Qbs... Jason Campbell for the Washington Redskins... I think he's had 6 OCs in 6 years. That would be extremely tough. I think people forget about that when they're analyzing his play, you know, it's not fair as a QB to have that many coordinators and coaches. It's too hard, I would not do well in that type of environment, so I've been thankful everyday to have Tom Moore as my coordinator for my entire 12 years and I understand this may be his last year, so I appreciate what he's done for my career and I will never take for granted the consistency.

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

you said campbell ended up ranked 15th in part due to 'garbage situations'. i asked you to define that.

are you willing to do that? will you tell me how many of campbells TD's were in 'garbage' time?

also, not to distract you from the question, but your statement about QB's playing in a more balanced attack- is that an indictment of campbell? the RB's? the playcalling? the O line? i'm not sure what you meant by that.

I never said that all of his stats were a result of garbage time, but I did say that 15th isn't even that much to worked up over anyway. Who cares.

How about telling us what makes Campbell a promising prospect instead of hiding behind hollow stats.

[CRobi21]

Some of you guys need to join up and try out for MTV's America's Best Dance Crew.

You'd be sure to win.

[darrelgreenie]

The fact is, Campbell, after 5 seasons, is not a fundamentally sound quarterback. He may make up for this by being familiar with the offense, to the point that he can memorize the playbook by rote, and compensate for his inherent...slowness...as a quarterback. But then, we could have just kept the Saunders Coryell and started TC, no?

No, my friend that's not a fact that's your opinion which you are presenting as fact.

Now you are claiming that Campbell was familiar with the offense?

Which one? (BTW the fact that there can be more then 1 answer is part of the point Manning is making)

He's "learning" very slowly and "producing" very little.

In your opinion Campbell is learning very slowly, yet he off to a fast start in the 1st year of Zorn's offense before the OL fell apart.

Second, his 'learning' has been made more difficult by the constant change.

That was the main point of Manning's statement, which appears to have gone over your head.

And really, as OuterBanks noted, a lot of the guys he is ahead of rating-wise are better - some indubitably better - than him. Are you really going to argue that Campbell is better than Carson Palmer? Or Matt Ryan (who granted DID have a sophomore slump)? Vince Young who is probably equal to (or slightly better than) JC as a passer but makes up for it with being a playmaker with his legs (and is 26-13 as a starter with basically ZERO offensive support until this year)? Or Cutler who threw 27 TDs on a team with almost no offensive talent and a fairly mediocre line, with playcalling that can be fairly compared to that of Jim Zorn? Even a guy like Garrard has a longer history of success than Jason Campbell.

This part is funny, explain to me how those QB were better then Campbell this year. Everyone of those QB was in a better situation then Campbell.

Really, a lot of the reasons used to justify Campbell's struggles can be used for a bunch of other QBs too. And they have won more, have a longer history of success, and generally have more of what makes successful QBs.

B.S. Go ahead and name them, which QBs had as much change early change in systems and OCs + near league worst OL play + near leg worst running+ injury to 4 former pro-bowl caliber players+ a playcalling/coaching circus

I'll wait............