Peyton Manning says Jason Campbell's sounded positive - guess not - MODS LOCK THIS

[darrelgreenie]

You:

Really, a lot of the reasons used to justify Campbell's struggles can be used for a bunch of other QBs too. And they have won more, have a longer history of success, and generally have more of what makes successful QBs.

Me:

B.S. Go ahead and name them, which QBs had as much change early change in systems and OCs + near league worst OL play + near leg worst running+ injury to 4 former pro-bowl caliber players+ a playcalling/coaching circus

I'll wait............

You:

Matt Ryan had no running game whatsoever. He had a solid WR, and a great TE, and zero other weapons to work with. His line regressed too. Campbell at least had Thomas, Moss and either Cooley or Davis to work with.

Jay Cutler had the same problems minus wide receivers.

Carson Palmer is arguable - his running game and wide receivers were way better but he was coming off injury as well, and his line wasn't too great either (Andre Smith was a massive bust this year).

Garrard had MJD but a mediocre pass-blocking line and absolutely nobody to throw to.

LoL, your statement above is so rife with factual errors i don't know where to begin for one JC, this year, performed better then most of the QB you mentioned and you have failed to show how any of those QBs was in a similiar or worse situation then Campbell. Remember the original question which is highlighted and bolded.

OL+Injuries to star players+No running game+coaching circus

After you failed to prove your own statement you respond with:

Irrelevant. If his situation was holding him back as much as you say, we would see it.

Um we do see it, YOU don't see but football savvy people see it.

Sure, it doesn't HELP - but being sacked a lot doesn't keep a guy from reading the defense. It doesn't make him any worse when he DOES have time

Hello, its YOUR opinion that he can't read defenses an illogical one at that.

It doesn't worsen his mechanics.

Its again your opinion that his mechanics are flawed.

You ignore the fact that when it comes to the fundamentals - the parts of QB play that transcend system and situation, Jason Campbell is LACKING

LoL, just because you think your opinions are facts doesn't make it so

, and it can be assumed that he will never overcome this lack to the point where he can be a consistently winning QB.

Well you know what they say about assume?

[Botched]

Did you ever think that because you've already made your mind up about Campbell it clouds your ability to objectively assess his play?

You should ask yourself the same question.

[grego]

Really? Why would I have to do that? So that we can apply another excuse to a QB who doesn't belong in the NFL?

Fact is' date=' and I do say FACT, is that Gibbs old way's did work when Collins stepped in for the statue that is Campbell, unfortunately for Gibbs he decided to try and play GM his second go round and failed at talent evaluation where it really counts, QB.

How do you know the problem was with Zorn, other QB's have sung his praise? There is one common thread you can see that has followed JC where ever he goes, and that's coaches get fired, coordinators get replaced like cheerleaders year to year, and no matter what happens the offense never moves so long as he is behind center.

I know this will come as a big shock to the JC love-fest but enjoy your moment of uncertainty with JC to some how legitimize his play so long as he's on the team while it lasts, because it's coming to an abrupt end, BANK ON IT![/quote']

all of this is interesting, cuz its a little different from what you said in 05. your words are in red....

Ramsey is not the problem Gibbs offense was, to many players who have big time play making ability just floundered in that offense last season, Gibbs has to prove he still has an inovative mind when it comes to offense, not that predictable, bland, vanilla, nonesense we saw last year.

you blame our HOF coach, and dont blame ramsey, the career backup, for our offenses problems.

Then let's try throwing the ball downfield, or how bout this anything other than a WR screen!

you didnt like gibbs playcalling. i didnt like zorns too much last year either.

Gibbs said he has to prove himself all over again, well I am taking him up on that, after what I saw last year on offense he has a lot to prove, we all love the guy for what he has done but the past is just that the past, he has to prove that after 12 years off the job he still has it, IMO Ramsey is the good's,

gibbs is the problem. but ramsey is a good QB, and you dont fault him.

I am not a big fan of Brunell nor was I before we traded for him, but not even he is as bad as what we saw last season, a lot of our QB's failures lie with Gibbs

alot of our QB's failures lie with our HOF coach.

but when anyone else points out reasons for our QB's failures, its excuses. you indict gibbs, and excuse zorn.

got it.

[jhug]

all of this is interesting, cuz its a little different from what you said in 05. your words are in red....

Ramsey is not the problem Gibbs offense was, to many players who have big time play making ability just floundered in that offense last season, Gibbs has to prove he still has an inovative mind when it comes to offense, not that predictable, bland, vanilla, nonesense we saw last year.

you blame our HOF coach, and dont blame ramsey, the career backup, for our offenses problems.

Then let's try throwing the ball downfield, or how bout this anything other than a WR screen!

you didnt like gibbs playcalling. i didnt like zorns too much last year either.

Gibbs said he has to prove himself all over again, well I am taking him up on that, after what I saw last year on offense he has a lot to prove, we all love the guy for what he has done but the past is just that the past, he has to prove that after 12 years off the job he still has it, IMO Ramsey is the good's,

gibbs is the problem. but ramsey is a good QB, and you dont fault him.

I am not a big fan of Brunell nor was I before we traded for him, but not even he is as bad as what we saw last season, a lot of our QB's failures lie with Gibbs

alot of our QB's failures lie with our HOF coach.

but when anyone else points out reasons for our QB's failures, its excuses. you indict gibbs, and excuse zorn.

got it.

Assume post, It's called talking out of both sides of your mouth, you nailed it. I wonder if he will respond to this.:saber:

[grego]

Assume post, It's called talking out of both sides of your mouth, you nailed it. I wonder if he will respond to this.:saber:

i thought it was interesting.

1) he completely excuses ramsey.

2) he blames gibbs.

3) hates the playcalling

funny thing is, i havent seen anyone excuse campbell to the point that he excuses ramsey. but if anyone has the gall to suggest zorn wasnt good, its an 'excuse'. calling out our HOF coach while excusing ramsey is ok in his book.

thats unbelievable.

[darrelgreenie]

Could it be that JC's play made my mind up for me' date=' and that to watch him play and actually believe he is a good QB stems form already having your mind made up?[/quote']

My opinion comes from watching the games and actually understanding what i'm looking at.

Realizing that when a QB is 15th in league despite the circumstances last year is testament to ability and toughness.

You see that statement is typical of the JC excuse machine, make a false comment and then continue to refer to it as fact.

What statement? I asked you a question.

Its too easy to use the quote feature.

[Botched]

alot of our QB's failures lie with our HOF coach.

but when you point out reasons for our QB's failures, its excuses.

got it.

I can't speak for him, but maybe in the last 5 years he has learned something?

I thought Ramsey was pretty good too, and I made excuses for him until I saw him go to two other teams and never get any better.

I also liked Jason Campbell and made excuses for him when a co worker of mine would trash him every week. I defended the guy like he was my brother until I realized that I was going down the same path I had with Ramsey.

I realized it's not always the o line, or the receivers, or the system, or the coaches. Some QBs just aren't very good, but it seems like some people here still can't handle that fact.

[grego]

I realized it's not always the o line, or the receivers, or the system, or the coaches. Some QBs just aren't very good, but it seems like some people here still can't handle that fact.

i have no interest in keeping campbell or any other player. i have an interest in the team winning.

in this case, our O line is terrible, i'm not impressed with our WR's (but i do like our TE's), our system- well, it looked real good when zorn wasnt calliing plays. and that brings us to coaching. ya, it was terrible.

ranking our 'middle of the road' QB against all that leads me to think he's not the biggest problem.

[Botched]

i have no interest in keeping campbell or any other player. i have an interest in the team winning.

in this case, our O line is terrible, i'm not impressed with our WR's (but i do like our TE's), our system- well, it looked real good when zorn wasnt calliing plays. and that brings us to coaching. ya, it was terrible.

ranking our 'middle of the road' QB against all that leads me to think he's not the biggest problem.

If Campbell had just finished his first or second year in the NFL, I would agree with you.

[grego]

If Campbell had just finished his first or second year in the NFL, I would agree with you.

then we disagree that a QB (in his 3rd system?) putting up middle of the road- but career best- stats behind a horrible line with horrible coaching (both of which, IMO, affect a QB's play more than anything else i can think of) is the biggest problem.

but i cant get over the fact that if our QB did that with this line and coaching, logically, he would do better with a better line and coaching. for me, thats probably the sticking point.

i dont like many of the same things about campbell that other people are bothered by. i want him to be 'quicker', i want him to be fiery, i want him to scramble around and make plays out of nothing.

but he's not the antichrist.

[grego]

botched- let me ask you like this, cuz i think i might have misunderstood you.

if you were to rank the things we talked about from 1-32, best in the league to worst in the league, how would you rank them?

heres mine-

O line- 32 (yes i think they were that bad)

WR's- 24

RB- 16 (if you dont count portis cuz i think he's done, and i think our backups have potential)

QB- 16

TE- 6

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

It's mind boggling that some of you have such low expectations for the QB position. The Skins have a chance to select a franchise QB in a few months and you all are making excuses for a guy who has started 50+ games and is 13-14 games under .500, the same guy who will demand a trade once we select Bradford or Clausen anyway

[grego]

It's mind boggling that some of you have such low expectations for the QB position. The Skins have a chance to select a franchise QB in a few months and you all are making excuses for a guy who has started 50+ games and is 13-14 games under .500, the same guy who will demand a trade once we select Bradford or Clausen anyway

while i'm not big on W/L record when it comes to judging QB's, i'm open to drafting a QB. not sure why, but bradford has been growing on me. maybe its the way he sometimes throws a ball like hes throwing a dart- sort of zips it out there. that, and everyone talks about how accurate he is. i like that.

of course, my biggest thing is the line, and i dont think we're going anywhere til we get 2 tackles. but if we can get em in FA, or later in the draft, thats all good.

[Botched]

botched- let me ask you like this, cuz i think i might have misunderstood you.

if you were to rank the things we talked about from 1-32, best in the league to worst in the league, how would you rank them?

heres mine-

O line- 32 (yes i think they were that bad)

WR's- 24

RB- 16 (if you dont count portis cuz i think he's done, and i think our backups have potential)

QB- 16

TE- 6

I won't try to put a numerical rank to them, but based on 2009 I'd say our OL is crap, WRs are pretty good, RBs are mediocre, TEs are excellent, QB is mediocre.

[darrelgreenie]

It's mind boggling that some of you have such low expectations for the QB position.

I don't and i don't think other people have low expectations for the QB position. This thread was about a statement that Manning made and the negative reaction some Redskins 'fans' had about a comment that demonstrates Manning's, whom we can all agree is an expert, opinion of how difficult it would be for a QB to play in under the circumstances the Redskins FO had created i.e. in regards to the change of system/OC.

This is the statement in question:

It's been a tremendous help to me, just the consistency, the same offense, the same verbiage, the same guy calling the plays in my ears for 12 years. I don't take that for granted in the least bit and so I see these Qbs... Jason Campbell for the Washington Redskins... I think he's had 6 OCs in 6 years. That would be extremely tough. I think people forget about that when they're analyzing his play, you know, it's not fair as a QB to have that many coordinators and coaches. It's too hard, I would not do well in that type of environment, so I've been thankful everyday to have Tom Moore as my coordinator for my entire 12 years and I understand this may be his last year, so I appreciate what he's done for my career and I will never take for granted the consistency.

The Skins have a chance to select a franchise QB in a few months and you all are making excuses for a guy who has started 50+ games and is 13-14 games under .500, the same guy who will demand a trade once we select Bradford or Clausen anyway

We can't or at least i can't be certain that Bradford is going to develop into a 'franchise' QB. I don't even see Bradford or Claussen as much better prospects then either our own Colt Brennan or Colt McCoy.

And i believe that Jason has a better chance of becoming a 'franchise' QB sooner then Bradford does by virtue of Bradford being a rookie and Campbell being the 15th rated QB in the league. Now if i thought that a rookie could've have played better then Campbell did last year then no doubt i would be with you 100%. But, i think we should either trade down or take an OT then we can pick-up a QB later on.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

And i believe that Jason has a better chance of becoming a 'franchise' QB sooner then Bradford does by virtue of Bradford being a rookie and Campbell being the 15th rated QB in the league.

This statement makes no sense. Are you saying a 5th year QB has more upside than a ROOKIE? Campbell should be entering his prime at 29. How much better do you think Campbell is going to get, seeing he has 5 years of experience?

There are a handful of QBs that bloom late - Trent Green was a bit of alate-bloomer, so was Rich Gannon. But Rich Gannon never truly got a shot, while Trent struggled with injury and that Chiefs team never had that much talent (great line, but NO targets outside Gonzo and Holmes)

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

and i believe that jason has a better chance of becoming a 'franchise' qb sooner then bradford does by virtue of bradford being a rookie and campbell being the 15th rated qb in the league. Now if i thought that a rookie could've have played better then campbell did last year then no doubt i would be with you 100%. But, i think we should either trade down or take an ot then we can pick-up a qb later on.

lol!

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

I don't and i don't think other people have low expectations for the QB position. This thread was about a statement that Manning made and the negative reaction some Redskins 'fans' had about a comment that demonstrates Manning's, whom we can all agree is an expert, opinion of how difficult it would be for a QB to play in under the circumstances the Redskins FO had created i.e. in regards to the change of system/OC.

.

Yeah, so what. I've already addressed his statement; anyone with half of a brain can agree to the statement's truth while still acknowledging that Campbell doesn't have the goods.

Again, I used a Zorn example earlier on this thread. Let me restate it though: Zorn was placed in a bad situation; he's still a terrible coach and no one who is being honest with himself can seriously argue that he has a bright future in the coaching business as a HC.

[darrelgreenie]

This statement makes no sense. Are you saying a 5th year QB has more upside than a ROOKIE? Campbell should be entering his prime at 29. How much better do you think Campbell is going to get, seeing he has 5 years of experience?

Follow along now its fairly simple logic.

If a QB is rated 15th in the league they are closer to being lets say the 10th rated QB then a rookie QB is to being the 10th rated QB, savvy?

There are a handful of QBs that bloom late - Trent Green was a bit of alate-bloomer, so was Rich Gannon. But Rich Gannon never truly got a shot, while Trent struggled with injury and that Chiefs team never had that much talent (great line, but NO targets outside Gonzo and Holmes)

This post is further evidence that Peyton Manning's statement went right over your head.

Oh, BTW remember when we were talking about Campbell having a better season then Palmer etc? I'm still waiting to see the list of the other QBs.

Originally Posted by Imperium Really, a lot of the reasons used to justify Campbell's struggles can be used for a bunch of other QBs too. And they have won more, have a longer history of success, and generally have more of what makes successful QBs.

Originally Posted by darrelgreenie B.S. Go ahead and name them, which QBs had as much change early change in systems and OCs + near league worst OL play + near leg worst running+ injury to 4 former pro-bowl caliber players+ a playcalling/coaching circus

I'll wait............

[OuterBanksTarHeel]

Follow along now its fairly simple logic.

If a QB is rated 15th in the league they are closer to being lets say the 10th rated QB then a rookie QB is to being the 10th rated QB, savvy?

Dude, seriously. What's your obsession with where he was "rated" in the stats this year? Palmer and Ryan ended up lower--no one in the league would ever mention Campbell in the same breath as those two, regardless of the "ratings" that you think are the be-end-all.

Also, I don't believe anyone suggested that Bradford will be an All-Pro in his first year as a starter; however, there is a definite correlation between prospects who are considered "franchise" coming into the draft and success, vs. guys like Campbell who are not graded out as franchise prospects coming into the draft; Campbbell wasn't even a legit first rounder--no other team in the league wanted him in the first round; we were the only ones dumb enough to reach for him. Also, QB's stats are incredibly complex and subjective--more so than any other position; once you get past the top 8 or so, the rest of the "ratings" are a complete and utter crap shoot.

[darrelgreenie]

Dude, seriously. What's your obsession with where he was "rated" in the stats this year? Palmer and Ryan ended up lower--no one in the league would ever mention Campbell in the same breath as those two, regardless of the "ratings" that you think are the be-end-all.

Its the NFL chosen standard of measure not mine, if you don't like why don't petition the league and get them to change it.

Can you explain to me how Palmer/Ryan was better then Campbell this season? I'll wait......

http://www.nfl.com/stats/headtohead?player1=CAM375235&player2=RYA238179&player3=PAL249055&player4=null&position=quarterback&playerOne=Jason+Campbell&playerTwo=Matt+Ryan&playerThree=Carson+Palmer&playerFour=Select+a+Player...

-Both had lower comp%

-Both have lower YPA

-Both had stability in play calling and coaching

-Both had much better RBs/running games

-Both had better pass protection

-Both had less injuries on the offensive side of the ball

Also, I don't believe anyone suggested that Bradford will be an All-Pro in his first year as a starter; however, there is a definite correlation between prospects who are considered "franchise" coming into the draft and success, vs. guys like Campbell who are not graded out as franchise prospects coming into the draft; Campbbell wasn't even a legit first rounder--no other team in the league wanted him in the first round; we were the only ones dumb enough to reach for him. Also, QB's stats are incredibly complex and subjective--more so than any other position; once you get past the top 8 or so, the rest of the "ratings" are a complete and utter crap shoot.

When you say Bradford is considered a 'franchise' QB don't you expect that he'll eventually be a top 10 QB in the league?

Being a 'franchise' QB isn't a label the same being a No.1 receiver isn't a label, its something you have to become.

There is no certainity that Bradford becomes a decent QB in the league much less a 'franchise' QB.

I think Palmer and Ryan are both good QBs but again Campbell was equal or better in almost every category while performing under much tougher conditions. So when you say that Bradford could be a 'franchise' QB it stands to reason that JC is closer to becoming a franchise QB then any rookie Bradford QB.

[HailGreen28]

Can you read?

Can you read the actual quote Peyton made, instead of a Candle lover's spin on it.

FROM PEYTON'S ACTUAL STATEMENT, DID PEYTON SAY THAT CANDLE HAS PERFORMED WELL OR IS A GOOD QB?

YES, OR NO, GREENIE?

CAN YOU READ OR THINK AT ALL?

[darrelgreenie]

Can you read the actual quote Peyton made, instead of a Candle lover's spin on it.

FROM PEYTON'S ACTUAL STATEMENT, DID PEYTON SAY THAT CANDLE HAS PERFORMED WELL OR IS A GOOD QB?

YES, OR NO, GREENIE?

CAN YOU READ OR THINK AT ALL?

Dude, 1st of all calm down.

2nd Is that what i said that Peyton said? http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=7277598&postcount=321

Stop the strawman tactics and either debate like an adult or don't respond to my posts.

.....watch the caps

[kiingspadee]

WHOA! I think there is some slight confusion - I am NOT A JASON CANDLE LOVER! You can go ahead and check and ask around, check my post history, and talk to people in GameDay Chat my hate for JC is pretty visible.

AT the time and the wording and his tone yes it seemed pretty huge how he was talking - in retrospect...no

[HailGreen28]

dude, 1st of all calm down.

2nd is that what i said that peyton said? http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=7277598&postcount=321

stop the strawman tactics and either debate like an adult or don't respond to my posts.

.....watch the caps

Again, WHERE IN PEYTON'S STATEMENT, DID PEYTON ACTUALLY SAY THAT CANDLE IS ANY GOOD?

Spin, spin,spin, seems to be all one side of this debate does, these days.

How about you debate the topic, instead of trying to dodge it playing lil' miss manners. Very bad form on your part.