Hitnskins Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 If Champ is a top three corner IN THE LEAGUE(as some on this board seem to think), then why is he going to the Pro Bowl as and ALTERNATE(two years it has happened), and that's for the NATIONAL FOOTBAL CONFERENCE........not the entire league???????? That's saying he's not even in the top three or four in his own conference.......And why hasn't he made the ALL PRO TEAM if he's the top two or three corners in the league??? And I don't even want to hear any excuses about the defensive line or anything like that..........especially when people on this board are saying that we've had a top five defense, and using that as reasoning of how good our defense and (more specifically) Champ is.........since everyone seems to think that he's the catalyst.........and for those that want to blame the def. line for his shortcomings, then they may want to reconsider breaking the bank trying to pay one Cornerbacks salary, if the def. line is in such rough shape......THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Stop making new threads........please Why was Sapp in the probowl with a number or low tackle games? Why was Alstott in there as a FB when he's really a RB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canyonero! Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Are we really going to judge talent based on Pro-Bowl appearances now? Rarely has there ever been a worse judge of talent than this game. It's equivalent to high school student elections. Champ is bugging me to a great degree with some of his contract talk, but I'm not going to try to talk down to the rest of the board like you're doing by flaunting such an idiotic tid-bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchogs Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 who decides who goes to the pro bowl? oh, that's right. the fans. like they know $hit about who the best players are at all the positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Bailey is unquestionably among the top three corners in the league. However, Pro Bowl appearances and the like don't often go to players who are on average teams. It's as simple as that. If Philly is 8-8 and the Redskins are 11-5 this year you won't see Vincent or Taylor in the Pro Bowl but you'll see Smoot and Bailey. Bailey is the best coverage corner in football at the moment and it's not really very close. That said, he's not a threatening, shut down, sort of corner, that perhaps Woodson was before his toe problem. Teams test Bailey and Bailey often wins those battles, by knocking down the ball, but, he has missed opportunities to be a threatening corner in terms of taking the ball and running a couple back during a season making teams afraid of testing him. There's not a corner you'd take in football right now over Bailey for certain when you factor in age and injuries and accomplishments and all the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 There is a top tier of corners with about 8 or 9 guys in it, Champ being among them. Every GM in the league would rank them differently, with many having Champ in the top 3. He is a premier DB. No one would argue with that. And signing him is a priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitnskins Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 I thought the Media picked the All Pro teams?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 You were wrong!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poidog22 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Canyonero! Are we really going to judge talent based on Pro-Bowl appearances now? Rarely has there ever been a worse judge of talent than this game. It's equivalent to high school student elections. Exactly, case in point: Jon Jansen has missed one snap in four years, typically shuts down whoever he's playing across, and blocked for Stephen Davis during his multi-1000 yd. seasons, and has YET to make the free trip the Hawaii....the Pro Bowl is a joke and shouldn't be a barometer of the talent of a player. :soapbox: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 The players pick the Pro Bowl teams, The fans pick the baseball all stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opiate-Zeo Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 I believe the NFL pro bowl is a combination of Fans, Media, and Players. each having 1/3 of the voting process. I definately remember voting on nfl.com last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitnskins Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 No, GGB81, you are wrong...........BECAUSE I know for a fact that the fans DO NOT pick the All-Pro teams(which in case you don't know) is a combination of the best players in the whole league..........totaly separate from the Pro Bowl teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Only 1 year did Champ go to Hawaii as an alternate - 2001. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 players like to pick guys they played against because it makes their wins look better. Plus, a guy like Chris Samuels won't vote for a DE from the Jets that he never heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Dolemite No, GGB81, you are wrong...........BECAUSE I know for a fact that the fans DO NOT pick the All-Pro teams(which in case you don't know) is a combination of the best players in the whole league..........totaly separate from the Pro Bowl teams. So, I was. (Thought you were referring to the Pro Bowl.) It was still fun writing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitnskins Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 don't get me wrong, I like Champ, I just think he's being greedy, and may be putting his value at an unrealistic number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Dolemite don't get me wrong, I like Champ, I just think he's being greedy, and may be putting his value at an unrealistic number. It's called negotiation. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 to be honest over the last three seasons I think Troy Vincent has been the best cornerback in the NFL. he happens to reside in the same division and conference as Bailey. there are other corners who are at Champ's level or even slightly ahead based on history, but most are far older and have less upside, or in the case of Charles Woodson may have chronic injuries that are now limiting their effectiveness Vincent (33), Madison (31), Law (30) are all excellent corners. Taylor (29) is very good. Ditto for guys like Samari Rolle and the Ravens' Chris MacAlister. All but MacAlister are a lot older than Champ. At 25, Bailey has done more at this respective stage of his career than any of these other players did. It is in part his potential, of what he CAN do between 25-32 that is going to be factor in how much he is looking for and how much the Redskins are going to be willing to pay him. Does he have an upside of another 10-15% putting him in the Deion Sanders primetime mode of 1994-98? Or is he going to remain a borderline elite player who can take over games but also show some inconsistency? What is working against the Skins is the history of paying out for players. Bailey knows the team has gone to extra lengths to rework deals and reconfigure the cap to bring in players and extend others. This is not the Steelers or Titans who are pleading with players to stay for 25% less because they just can't afford the freight. The constant need to be able to work under the cap makes it vital that teams continue to bring in talent each offseason in the draft to backup guys that may be gone in the future, even all-star caliber players. Reduced to just 3 picks this year the Skins will be very fortunate to have their top 2 selections battling for major roles in their rookie seasons at WR and OL. Those are good signs. It may very well turn out that after his rookie deal is completed that Rod Gardner may be a player we can't afford to resign and we will be looking at Taylor Jacobs as a guy to step up to the #2 spot. Ditto for Dockery. Fiore may not stay healthy at OG. Moore may not be consistent and Fiore may move to center, creating an open spot on a line with some highly compensated vets. We won't have the money to afford another free agent, so Dockery is the future there. And the draft in 2004 will be VERY important for this team. That is why Snyder said he was disinclined to trade future draft choices in 2004 for help at DT right now. He and Cerrato realize we are going to need a facelift on the DL and some reorganization at LB and perhaps CB as well. On offense it is not a slam dunk that we have a franchise back as of yet, or that we have a capable backup quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by Mad Mike It's called negotiation. Get over it. I agree that it's negotiation, and usually, I tend to be on the players side, but negotiations need to take place between the agent, player and owner, not the player, media and fans. I'm sure Priest Holmes is a great guy, but when he opened his trap on MNF the other night, I was almost wishing he would re-injure himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Murphaaay Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Originally posted by codeorama I agree that it's negotiation, and usually, I tend to be on the players side, but negotiations need to take place between the agent, player and owner, not the player, media and fans. I'm sure Priest Holmes is a great guy, but when he opened his trap on MNF the other night, I was almost wishing he would re-injure himself. It's rather dirty to wish injury on a player just because he stated openly that he wanted to get paid his worth. The thing about it is, he had an awesome year, one of the best in NFL history for a RB. He asks for a pay raise, then KC wants him to prove he's totally back from the injury. He showed up on time to camp, has worked just as hard as he did the previous year. He then showed on Monday night that he has not lost a step. Will KC pay up now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 That's why I said "almost". As a fan, I don't care about hearing about how much money he deserves. I think in general ALL of the players in ALL of the sports are way overpaid. The players should make less money, the owners should lower ticket prices and concession prices and the average fan will then be able to attend games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Dolemite, First of all, Champ was an alternate in 2001. He made the first team in 2000 and 2002, so he was only an alt once. Secondly, even if the pro-bowl was the be-all and end-all of ranking players, claiming that since Bailey is not in the pro-bowl every year does not mean he's not a top three CB. How many other CBs in the NFC have had more pro-bowl appearances than Bailey during Bailey's career? One. Troy Vincent. Instead of being an alternate in 2001, Vincent was a first-teamer. Since 1999, Bailey and Aneas Williams have been to two pro bowls as first teamers, and Vincent's been to three. That's it. Now, of those three CBs Vincent is 32. Williams is 35. Bailey is 25. So who exactly in the NFC is more valuble at CB than Bailey, based on your pro-bowl criteria? The AFC? Since 99 Sam Madison and Woodsen have been to three pro-bowls. Glenn has been to two. That's it. Woodsen is damaged goods. Glenn is 31. So far the only clear cut superior CB in the NFL based on pro-bowl appearances is Madison. That would put Bailey at #2. Which makes him a top three CB. Based on your criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Code I don't like it either but it is an effective tactic for putting the pressure on the owners. I also agree that Priest Holmes took it way to far the other night. If he wants to talk to the press, fine, but come gametime he needs to shut up and play. My point through all of this is that: A) Champ is worth top CB money based on past performance, future potential, and value to the team. People are getting all wound up over the opening gambit of a player trying to get paid what he is worth. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Good one Henry. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitnskins Posted August 6, 2003 Author Share Posted August 6, 2003 listen friend, I'm not saying that I judge people on Pro Bowl appearances.........that's what you and others like you say when describing Champ Bailey "The three time Pro-Bowl selection".......that's all, I'm not saying you judge talent on Pro Bowl selections.......so don't get carried away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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