Dan T. Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 .....and yet even with all that special police officering training....all 10 highly trained officers were scared/threatened enough by an 86 year old bed-ridden woman....on oxygen....and her "aggressive manner"..... that they had to taser her multiple times..... I'd like to hear how you would have had the cops handle the situation. Because bottom line, they disarmed a suicidal woman armed with a knife would threatened to kill any cop who approached her. Outside of a cut on her arm, she's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'd like to hear how you would have had the cops handle the situation. Because bottom line, they disarmed a suicidal woman armed with a knife would threatened to kill any cop who approached her. Outside of a cut on her arm, she's fine. Exactly. And he can post the picture as many times as he wants, doesn't change the fact that she was armed with a deadly weapon. So let's hear the superplan-o, superbeasto. What would you have done exactly? ---------- Post added January-11th-2012 at 08:08 PM ---------- I would put my money on the settlement being given because of ridiculous, unprofessional, cowardly behavior for $500 Bob. Same question. What would you have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 it makes no sense.....yet the El Reno Police Department settled the case by awarding Ms. Varner and her grandson an undisclosed sum of money rather than go to trial. unless all 10 highly trained officers truly were scared of her and her orange peeling knife. Would you want to go in front of a jury and argue that you zapped an old lady that has to be wheeled in along with an oxygen tank? Some things just aren't worth the bad publicity and they were only suing for 75k if I remember correctly. The cop could: A) set his phaser to stun and zap her. wrestle the knife out of her hand. Being that she suffered a laceration from even less aggressive contact than that just think of the injury. C) left her in a state in which she might be committing suicide. Being that she's alive and well and the taser didn't set the oxygen tank on fire everyones a winner. She even got paid. If you want a bull**** cop story go back and read about the 90ish year old woman in Atlanta that was killed in a no knock raid. The initial story stated that she had fired at officers and hit each one once (non life threatening injuries of course). When I read that the smell test came back bull****. John Wayne could not hit three cops charging weapons drawn once each. The newspapers never followed up on those mysterious injuries (did they shoot themselves to cover it up?) but several cops went to jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubstix Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Same question.What would you have done? Well listen, first of all, I think they're plenty of fantastic cops who love to help people and you never really get to hear the good stories. You only really get to hear the "Hero" stories, ect. I know everyday cops are helping people and handling criminals on a daily basis, I respect them. I don't respect the brutality ones, and certainly this situation could of been handled different. I don't know exact details of the situation, how long it went on, ect.....but come on man how about some mace or tear gas if cops really felt like they were in danger. I'm not so sure I would feel in danger from a lady in a wheel chair with an oxygen tank? How about blasting her with mase first instead of straight electrocuting her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Well listen, first of all, I think they're plenty of fantastic cops who love to help people and you never really get to hear the good stories. You only really get to hear the "Hero" stories, ect. I know everyday cops are helping people and handling criminals on a daily basis, I respect them. I don't respect the brutality ones, and certainly this situation could of been handled different. I don't know exact details of the situation, how long it went on, ect.....but come on man how about some mace or tear gas if cops really felt like they were in danger. I'm not so sure I would feel in danger from a lady in a wheel chair with an oxygen tank? How about blasting her with mase first instead of straight electrocuting her? First of all, thanks for this post. I can appreciate the fact that you see this situation differently, and aren't just an "f the police type." Such people are a real pet-peeve of mine. I apologize if my curt post seemed like I was lumping you into that group. That being said, and I realize this isn't common knowledge, pepper spray, when deployed in a confined area "contaminates" the entire area. Not only would the old lady have been miserable, and hacking up a lung (with respiratory problems already) anyone else in the area would have too; including the officers. Tear gas, or CS gas, is used for dispersal most of the time, and likewise, makes the area uninhabitable until the effects die down. So the cops would have had to exit (leaving the suicidal woman alone) and hope that she doesn't die from her respiratory issues being complicated, or cutting herself. I will say this. I'm glad you didn't say "physically take the knife from her." In a situation like that, that's the worst possible option. It increases the risk of injury to all involved; and even moreso with an elderly person. She could have suffered fractures due to her more brittle bones, and/or officers could have been stabbed. I guess this is one of those "damned no matter what you do type of situations." IMO, if they had sprayed her, we would have seen a thread like the UC Davis incident, decrying the officers for "brutality" for spraying her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubstix Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 First of all, thanks for this post. I can appreciate the fact that you see this situation differently, and aren't just an "f the police type." Such people are a real pet-peeve of mine. I apologize if my curt post seemed like I was lumping you into that group.That being said, and I realize this isn't common knowledge, pepper spray, when deployed in a confined area "contaminates" the entire area. Not only would the old lady have been miserable, and hacking up a lung (with respiratory problems already) anyone else in the area would have too; including the officers. Tear gas, or CS gas, is used for dispersal most of the time, and likewise, makes the area uninhabitable until the effects die down. So the cops would have had to exit (leaving the suicidal woman alone) and hope that she doesn't die from her respiratory issues being complicated, or cutting herself. I will say this. I'm glad you didn't say "physically take the knife from her." In a situation like that, that's the worst possible option. It increases the risk of injury to all involved; and even moreso with an elderly person. She could have suffered fractures due to her more brittle bones, and/or officers could have been stabbed. I guess this is one of those "damned no matter what you do type of situations." IMO, if they had sprayed her, we would have seen a thread like the UC Davis incident, decrying the officers for "brutality" for spraying her. No problem man, I respect police officers because I've met tons of cops who are real nice guys. I'm only a "f police" type guy in videos where it's pretty clear police brutality is going on or even news stories that HAVE to be very blatant on the brutality. I usually take a most of the news stories with a grain of salt because media doesn't really portray the entire story. I haven't been in contact with police (breaking the law) for several years now (good thing), but I like when a police officer treats others with respect. If I get treated with respect by an officer I will absolutely give it back 100%. I had a bad experience with a cop who treated me like a pile of trash and basically bullied me because I was young and scared. He took complete advantage over me, ripping my car apart looking for drugs because I had to much cologne on even though I explained I was getting laid tonight and I was picking up a girl. Put me in handcuffs, got in my face yelling where are the drugs at, ect. But back to the story. I understand the logic with the pepper spray or tear gas for that matter and your probably right with the respiratory problems as well. Also what I've gained from discussing this is your absolutely right about the no win situation here. Now that I really think about it, even mase would have caused a media uproar as well. Probably better to settle with money rather than have the media attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You're a smart dude, kub. And not just because we found common ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-9- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 .....let's hear the superplan-o, superbeasto. What would you have done exactly? not being a highly trained police officer.....nor being afraid of a bed-ridden 86 year old woman..... .....and if the situation definitely warranted it (again...no explanation why they were there in such force in the first place)......i would opt for the "physically take the knife from her" option.....exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 not being a highly trained police officer.....nor being afraid of a bed-ridden 86 year old woman..........and if the situation definitely warranted it (again...no explanation why they were there in such force in the first place)......i would opt for the "physically take the knife from her" option.....exactly. Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 not being a highly trained police officer.....nor being afraid of a bed-ridden 86 year old woman..........and if the situation definitely warranted it (again...no explanation why they were there in such force in the first place)......i would opt for the "physically take the knife from her" option.....exactly. Ah, yes. It would have been much better to have her wind up with a broken arm instead. You're the one that keeps insisting on her frailty. Yet, you prefer a physical confrontation. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Isn't there warnings about Tasering old people: Yes Isn't there a warning about the tasering dart distance from the heart: Yes Isn't there a warning about tasering people already in distress: Yes Was the 911 call based on her medication possibly being incorrect and needing a medic: Yes = Why on Earth would you use a taser when your own instructions tell you not to proceed. Scenario1: Trying to save her from killing herself: With an item deemed capable of killing her. (and then pulsing her 3 times until she passes out, in her Chest). Scenario2: Trying to save 10 officers from harm: She had a maximum effective range of the railings on her bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-9- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ah, yes. It would have been much better to have her wind up with a broken arm instead. You're the one that keeps insisting on her frailty. Yet, you prefer a physical confrontation. Interesting. she could have had a chainsaw and easily could have taken from her without leaving a scratch. big bad police force scared of a daintly little old bed-ridden blue-haired lady....again....too funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 When I was a medic working the inpatient wards,I had to assist many and elderly patient. Just assisting them out of bed was a very cautious,delicate process since you didn't want to bruise them just by gently taking them by the arm,(which happened many times anyway. ). I'll leave out the cracking and popping of bones when doing CPR. Restraining them was always a sure way to hurt them,(though they weren't armed either in those cases). I'm not sure what I would do in this case,since no matter what I did I'd feel like **** and it would probably hurt the poor thing. Probably take the least likely to injure her badly route and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Thiebear I'm with you. Why can't we expect common sense, discretion and situational awareness from LEOs? It's like we've come to the point where individual not cooperating = justification for almost anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Scenario1: Trying to save her from killing herself: With an item deemed capable of killing her. (and then pulsing her 3 times until she passes out, in her Chest).Scenario2: Trying to save 10 officers from harm: She had a maximum effective range of the railings on her bed. How do you take the knife from her without getting inside that distance? she could have had a chainsaw and easily could have taken from her without leaving a scratch. You're not going to be reasonable, and that's fine. big bad police force scared of a daintly little old bed-ridden blue-haired lady....again....too funny. No matter how many times you (or the original story) leave out the words "deadly weapon," it doesn't change the facts. ---------- Post added January-12th-2012 at 10:30 AM ---------- Thiebear I'm with you. Why can't we expect common sense, discretion and situational awareness from LEOs? It's like we've come to the point where individual not cooperating = justification for almost anything. What's the common sense solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How do you take the knife from her without getting inside that distance?You're not going to be reasonable, and that's fine. No matter how many times you (or the original story) leave out the words "deadly weapon," it doesn't change the facts. ---------- Post added January-12th-2012 at 10:30 AM ---------- What's the common sense solution? Why would you need to take her orange peeling knife from her hand? What is the immediate threat? To herself? Then why electrocute her in the chest: To the orange? it had it coming to the Police? Seriously? Currently, Memphis, Tennessee, San Francisco, California, and Las Vegas, Nevada have opted to ban the use of tasers by law enforcement. Additionally, a federal court has ruled (PDF) that the pain inflicted by the taser gun constitutes excessive force by law enforcement. The courts don’t want police to electrocute people with their tasers unless they pose an immediate threat. Are you going to claim the only way to save this woman was to pulse her 3 times in the chest, step on her air tube. and cut her arm from wrist to elbow while she was unconcious? I'm sure she was grateful for the help. Another common sense method would be: Send 8 of the 10 officers back on the street Talk to her for another hour or 2 and watch her calm down from the confusing situation she didn't cause. Isn't that standard policy for women and children hostage situations? talk them down? Maybe not put the son in the cruiser making this a her vs. us scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-9- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 What is the immediate threat?..........To the orange? it had it coming. You're not going to be reasonable, and that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I wonder how many suicidal people you guys have dealt with. You probably should have though, since it's so damned easy for you. ---------- Post added January-12th-2012 at 10:52 AM ---------- You're not going to be reasonable, and that's fine. The chainsaw comment was idiotic. I tried to avoid saying that, but it was. Anyone who simply walks up to a suicidal person with a chainsaw and tries to grab is so far beyond moronic that he/she can't even SEE moronic from where they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You're not going to be reasonable, and that's fine. Don't worry, if you look at the picture above (post 107: http://www.mediaite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/varner.jpg) in the background the orange (mentioned in the police report) was the only thing that survived without a scratch. (i bet the knife on the table was the fearsome weapon also)... HH: (accepting the claim it was an attempted suicide vs. the 911 call recording). How much time from arrival to tasering should you allow an 86yr old woman to gather her thoughts: (rough estimate of time) 1hour, 2hours? Is that rushing it? Should 4-6hours be allowed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-9- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I wonder how many suicidal people you guys have dealt with. You probably should have though, since it's so damned easy for you. she denied being suicidal.....obviously bull**** in the police report to cover cowardly actions. The chainsaw comment was idiotic. and so was the multiple tasering of an 86 year old woman by 10 police officers.... the absurdity of this particular situation is so extreme....yet you continue to defend the indefensible.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 she denied being suicidal.....obviously bull**** in the police report to cover cowardly actions.. The record of the dispatch is so easily retrievable that there's no way a cop would lie about that on a police report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Just for some backstory to help you understand: Ms. Varner is in the bed due to a previous "Stroke". The police report is missing the times of anything except the arrival: Dec 23rd 6:30pm, admitted to second hospital (mental) wee hours of the next morning = 8 hours total? give or take 1. So they arrived, took a posture and called in help on a knife weilding old lady. Tasered her and called an ambulance. let the son out of the police cruise to ride in the ambulance. She was treated for burn wounds to her chest and the cut on her arm from wrist to elbow at the medical facility. She was then transported to a new psychiatric facility and arrives in the early morning hours. How much time does that allow for in the apartment. 21minutes? Any guesses, should we start a pool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 she denied being suicidal.....obviously bull**** in the police report to cover cowardly actions. As Dan pointed out, the 911 call only requires a FOIA request to obtain. the absurdity of this particular situation is so extreme....yet you continue to defend the indefensible.... Sure it's indefensible when you continue to pretend there wasn't a deadly weapon involved. But there was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-9- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 .....you continue to pretend there wasn't a deadly weapon involved. But there was. too funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 As Dan pointed out, the 911 call only requires a FOIA request to obtain.Sure it's indefensible when you continue to pretend there wasn't a deadly weapon involved. But there was. HH: a bed ridden stroke victim breathing through and oxygen tube In a bed with rails and a toilet next to the bed to allow access Having memory issues about her medication, with a trashcan next to the bed to allow her to get sick. (can use a black handled orange peeling steak knife as a deadly weapon?) thats the case your putting forth as "dangerous" against 10 cops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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