WTOP: 19yr old killed by his own pit bulls

[Special K]

This threads has gotten ridiculous. It's like an Ovechkin vs. Crosby thread at HFBoards. Can't we agree pitbulls can be dangerous and so can other breeds and while they seem to be more prone to violence they can be friendly and harmless animals.

Actually, I enjoy watching these pro-pitbull owners profess the gentle nature of their loving doggies. It's a delightful out-of-this world refresher before I have to head down to the office and help clean and de-stitch the wounds of the patients who've been clobbered by thes animals on....a regular basis.... :doh:

[dockeryfan]

One man's 27 page thread against pit bulls still alive. Bad statistics and all. http://www.americanhumane.org/assets/docs/protecting-animals/PA-resources-pit-bull-myths.pdf

All because he had one attack happen to him. These domesticated dogs that were abandoned and killed that couple. They must have had that bad pitbull gene in them I guess, even if they weren't pit bulls. I mean how could they kill if they weren't pitbulls?

They are animals. They are overpopulated. Yet somehow this is ignored, and it's in the DNA and the "breed" must be eradicated.

Get rid of the APBT, and the Cane Corso will be next on the list. Then Dogo Argentino, then Alano Espanol, then Dogue de Bordeau, etc etc etc.

[GoSkins561]

Goskin, the AVMA report you quoted above is the joint CDC/AVMA report usually referred to as just the CDC report. In that same report, the authors explained that:

Or in other words, because of their data collection procedures, which they listed media accounts as one of their two sources of data (the other was the HSUS), the statistics presented may not be correct due to mis-identification, over-reporting due to certain breeds being more newsworthy, and assumption of breed due to reputation.

Also from the same report:

Here they admit that breed-specific bite rates cannot be accurately calculated. In fact, the CDC quit gathering breed data in fatal attacks in 1998.

I am not really trying to change your mind. I understand why you feel the way you do, much like I avoid Border Collies after being attacked by one as a child. However, please be aware when forming your arguments that if you include the CDC/AVMA report, it is important not to take one group's interpretation (pro and against) at face value.

Please read the report for yourself. I am admittedly bias when it comes to this subject, and you should draw your own conclusions. Besides, it is an interesting report to read since they get into BSL effectiveness, etc.

Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998

Interesting the mentioned fence heights not being adequate for some large breeds of dogs and less than 1% of the fatalities were from dogs on leash.

Now going back to the Ten Commandments of owning a Pit Bull, how many Pit Bull owners are willing to live by those rules?? I am not including you or LJS into this group, how many of the blind homer Pit Bull owners that claim it's the owner not the breed would actually follow those rules???

I would guess around 5% to 10%, what is your estimate?

What do you do with the rest of the Pit Bulls?

[GoSkins561]

One man's 27 page thread against pit bulls still alive. Bad statistics and all. http://www.americanhumane.org/assets/docs/protecting-animals/PA-resources-pit-bull-myths.pdf

All because he had one attack happen to him. These domesticated dogs that were abandoned and killed that couple. They must have had that bad pitbull gene in them I guess, even if they weren't pit bulls. I mean how could they kill if they weren't pitbulls?

They are animals. They are overpopulated. Yet somehow this is ignored, and it's in the DNA and the "breed" must be eradicated.

Get rid of the APBT, and the Cane Corso will be next on the list. Then Dogo Argentino, then Alano Espanol, then Dogue de Bordeau, etc etc etc.

First, if you are trying to point the finger at me, it wasn't my thread, second the statistics are not bad.

The list of attacks came from actual newspaper clippings in the area where the attack happened. Are you trying to tell me the kid in th Op wasn't killed by a Pit Bull? If I didn't think it was inappropriate to pull pictures from the kids facebook page, I would have posted a pic of him holding one of the Pits that killed him.

Are you trying to say it wasn't a Pit Bull that killed the 3 day old? According to the local news it was.

Dogsbite.org while slanted, quotes actual news articles from the municipalities where the attacks happen. She is obviously on a mission, however she isn't writing the articles. She links several sources for each death in each year.

Finally, I didn't say the breed must be erradicated, I said several timesa throughout the thread, they need to be taken away from the idiots and left to people that know what they are doing (LJS, Adam). Unfortunately for the breed, that would mean a drastic reduction in thier population, which I have no problem with.

[dockeryfan]

First, if you are trying to point the finger at me, it wasn't my thread, second the statistics are not bad.

If you knew about statistics, you would know why they are poor in this case. You would know why the CDC itself has come out and said that the methods used in their breed specific bite study were insufficient, and that is why they no longer even try to compile these statistics. I think Adam linked their actual language.

Finally, I didn't say the breed must be erradicated, I said several timesa throughout the thread, they need to be taken away from the idiots and left to people that know what they are doing (LJS, Adam). Unfortunately for the breed, that would mean a drastic reduction in thier population, which I have no problem with.

A reduction in their numbers by killing them off. Be honest at least. Also, you still haven't answered my question about those other breeds. The Cane Corsos, the Dogo Argentinos, etc.

The fact remains that you have used your personal experience in this case, which was a negative one, and combined it with the misinformation in the media about the breed.

Every time someone points out that the things you are quoting are incorrect, you bring up individual examples such as one person being attacked, etc. and look at the strength of this dog OMG...

That is not an argument. That is the same way people argue for gun control. That it is a weapon that in essence cannot be controlled, so no one should own guns. You are, in effect, arguing that these dogs are weapons that cannot be controlled, and there is no evidence to prove this. (I do NOT agree with the premise that a dog is a weapon, but that seems to be what you are arguing)

[GoSkins561]

If you knew about statistics, you would know why they are poor in this case. You would know why the CDC itself has come out and said that the methods used in their breed specific bite study were insufficient, and that is why they no longer even try to compile these statistics. I think Adam linked their actual language.

A reduction in their numbers by killing them off. Be honest at least. Also, you still haven't answered my question about those other breeds. The Cane Corsos, the Dogo Argentinos, etc.

The fact remains that you have used your personal experience in this case, which was a negative one, and combined it with the misinformation in the media about the breed.

Every time someone points out that the things you are quoting are incorrect, you bring up individual examples such as one person being attacked, etc. and look at the strength of this dog OMG...

That is not an argument. That is the same way people argue for gun control. That it is a weapon that in essence cannot be controlled, so no one should own guns. You are, in effect, arguing that these dogs are weapons that cannot be controlled, and there is no evidence to prove this. (I do NOT agree with the premise that a dog is a weapon, but that seems to be what you are arguing)

He did link the actual language and they claimed that Rotts and Pitts were responsible for 67% not 60% but SIXTY SEVEN percent of fatal dog attacks. They also said because Rotts and Pitts do not make up 60% of the dog population, the problem is breed specific. Whats interesting, as Pit Bulls have become more popular, the number of fatal attacks has increased since 2000.

The other breeds are not a problem yet because they have not been over bred in teh same way Pits have. To correct you, Rotts and Rhodesians which you have listed are not even in the terrier group.

Again, they can be controlled, but you need owners (LJS/Adam) that are willing to put up a eight foot fence, or keep them on the leash at all times, carry a muzzle in thier back pocket, understand the dogs body language etc. They need owners that appreciate the breed for being gentle, not because they look tough and can be used to kill.

Fact, there are laws that state Pit Bulls can be considered deadly weapons and these laws have been enforced on many occasions. Fact, most Pit Bulls are dog aggressive, very few are not, it has nothing to do with the owner, it has to do with the breed. FACT, The kid in the OP was killed because his Pits were being dog aggressive and he as one of the owners tried to stop them. FACT, most Pit Bulls tend to be loyal and listen really well to only one person. Fact Pit Bulls are very athletic. Fact Pit Bulls tend not to give a warning before they attack other dogs, they tend to just attack.

[Botched]

Source?

Sorry haven't been able to get on here in awhile.

Here's one quick one. This one is just based on AKC registrations.

http://www.akc.org/reg/dogreg_stats.cfm

It has Rotties at 14 and Pits at 69 in terms of popularity.

Obviously this is not 100% accurate since it's only based on AKC registrations. Google "most popular dog breeds" and you can find all you want. Rottweilers are always ranked well above Pits.

Think I'm gonna back out of this discussion now, there really isn't much more that can be said. All I ask is that every Pit Bull on Earth be exterminated and their owners put in jail. J/K hope we can all still be friends.

[GoSkins561]

Look what they have done to Pit Bulls in Africa, we better hope the American version doesn't morph into these beasts.

[ljs]

Actually, I enjoy watching these pro-pitbull owners profess the gentle nature of their loving doggies. It's a delightful out-of-this world refresher before I have to head down to the office and help clean and de-stitch the wounds of the patients who've been clobbered by thes animals on....a regular basis.... :doh:

Katie- read these posts again, especially my post yesterday- none of us on here are saying our dogs are gentle, prefect creatures. What we are saying is that these ARE rough/stubborn dogs, who need extra training, extra care and very well trained owners. We are saying that too many pit owners don't realize what they have gotten into- they end up being neglectful when they don't realize it, and the dog gets in trouble.

I have and will continue to acknowledge all day long that a pit bull is a "hard" dog. It is a dog that you can't just let run around the neighborhood, that you can't feed with a lil kid standing next to it, that probably won't get along with other dogs....etc. I will continue to say that if someone is going to own a Pit- they need to become better prepared.

I will also continue to say that no matter what kind of dog you have- you need a fenced yard (unless small dog in apt), ALWAYS have it on a leash outside the home- DO NOT approach other dogs w/o owner permisssion or knowing the dog. So many of these tragedies could have been prevented if people made better decisions.

I will also continue to say that "a Pit Bull will kill you simply b/c of its breed" -is wrong.

also- go read what GoSkins posted in regard to the 10 commandments of owning a Pit Bull. If everyone followed that, things would be different.

[hockeysc23]

Look what they have done to Pit Bulls in Africa, we better hope the American version doesn't morph into these beasts.

I know I said I was done with this thread but jesus. Hyenas as pets ... now that is too far and I think we can agree on that GoSkins!

Closing argument ... I feel bad and sorry for anyone or animal that has had a horrible interaction with any dog let alone a pit bull.

Hopefully through better Pitt owners the dogs the benefits of the breed can be highlighted and media focus will shift to poor owners not a poor breed.

-GoSkins I appreciate all the time and knowledge you have brought to the thread. Very interesting debate from all sides despite the differing in opinions. Hopefully you only have more positive news to report of Pitts in the future

[GoSkins561]

Katie- read these posts again, especially my post yesterday- none of us on here are saying our dogs are gentle, prefect creatures. What we are saying is that these ARE rough/stubborn dogs, who need extra training, extra care and very well trained owners. We are saying that too many pit owners don't realize what they have gotten into- they end up being neglectful when they don't realize it, and the dog gets in trouble.

I have and will continue to acknowledge all day long that a pit bull is a "hard" dog. It is a dog that you can't just let run around the neighborhood, that you can't feed with a lil kid standing next to it, that probably won't get along with other dogs....etc. I will continue to say that if someone is going to own a Pit- they need to become better prepared.

I will also continue to say that no matter what kind of dog you have- you need a fenced yard (unless small dog in apt), ALWAYS have it on a leash outside the home- DO NOT approach other dogs w/o owner permisssion or knowing the dog. So many of these tragedies could have been prevented if people made better decisions.

I will also continue to say that "a Pit Bull will kill you simply b/c of its breed" -is wrong.

also- go read what GoSkins posted in regard to the 10 commandments of owning a Pit Bull. If everyone followed that, things would be different.

LJS, I think we are on the same page for the most part, there are still plenty of people in this thread saying "it's not the breed it's the owner", which is not necasarily the case i.e. dog aggression, stubborn one owner dogs, raw power and ability to kill (more than 99 percent of the breeds out there. etc.)

I agree with the Ten Commandments of owning a Pit, however I don't think a 4 or 5 foot fence is even close to containing a Pit, they need 8' foot privacy fence. I don't agree with you that all dogs need to be leashed, at least for the same reasons a Pit needs to be leashed.

How many Pit owners are willing to live by those 10 Commandments? I have my doubts about the vast majority.

You can take most breeds to a dog park and let them run off leash without any problems, if there is a problem, most dogs only leave puncture wounds. As you know, Pits can be a hell of a lot more destructive in a fight, than most of your standard breeds such as labs, goldens, boxers, mastiffs, great danes, etc.

[GoSkins561]

I know I said I was done with this thread but jesus. Hyenas as pets ... now that is too far and I think we can agree on that GoSkins!

Closing argument ... I feel bad and sorry for anyone or animal that has had a horrible interaction with any dog let alone a pit bull.

Hopefully through better Pitt owners the dogs the benefits of the breed can be highlighted and media focus will shift to poor owners not a poor breed.

-GoSkins I appreciate all the time and knowledge you have brought to the thread. Very interesting debate from all sides despite the differing in opinions. Hopefully you only have more positive news to report of Pitts in the future

awwww man, is the thread coming to an end?

Should I start a new thread the next time a Pit Bull kills someone?

[ljs]

. I don't agree with you that all dogs need to be leashed, at least for the same reasons a Pit needs to be leashed.

How many Pit owners are willing to live by those 10 Commandments? I have my doubts about the vast majority.

.

the problem with other people and their dogs off leash- I'm out walking my Pit bull on a leash- minding my own business. And someone who thinks just cause their dog behaves ok, they can walk off leash- so their dog runs up to mine, starts ****. Mine's gonna finish it- and then I'm the one to blame. THAT is what makes me mad. Now, a fully fenced in off leash dog park- that is another story and I wouldn't take my Pit there. (also, Pits would be fine with a 6 ft fence. who the hell builds 8 ft fences?

And it is the owner- not the breed. If the owners knew what they were doing, and did it right- we wouldnt have these problems. Pit bulls are not predispose to kill people- no dog is. If you studied dog behavior, you would understand that.

[GoSkins561]

I will agree that there isn't a single dog out there that is predisposed to kill people, and if Pit Bull owners went above and beyond with thier pets they would kill less people.

How does that sound?

[kubstix]

I will agree that there isn't a single dog out there that is predisposed to kill people, and if Pit Bull owners went above and beyond with thier pets they would kill less people.

How does that sound?

Pathetic, because of the 95% of your 50+ posts in this thread, you blamed the breed. Now all of a sudden it's not? What is it now? Please post an absolute FINAL statement so you don't completely change your 'opinion' for a third time.

[GoSkins561]

Pathetic, because of the 95% of your 50+ posts in this thread, you blamed the breed. Now all of a sudden it's not? What is it now? Please post an absolute FINAL statement so you don't completely change your 'opinion' for a third time.

I made a slight change to my opinion once and I still blame the breed, I was blaming the breed in my last post.

If all Pit Bull owners would realize they have a potential deadly weapon on thier hands and follow the 10 Commandments of owning a Pit Bull, there would be a fewer attacks and deaths as a result.

The problem is, and some Pit Bull owners realize this, in order for the breed to get a better reputation, idiots can't own Pits. Unfortunately, this will result in the destruction of 1000's of Pits.

You need people that realize Pits don't play nice with other dogs and when Pits get bored they will jump a fence to go looking for fun. I agree with LJS it isn't fair for her to keep her Pit on a leash and be blamed when her dog kicks the other dogs ass for smelling it the wrong way.

Until there are regulations and a crack down on idiot owners, people will always forget to not leave thier Pit with children unsupervised, or leave thier pit the back yard with a 4 foot fence for hours at a time. I think we all agree because of the nature of the beast, Pits need extra extra attention, unfortunately 95 percent of Pit owners are not willing to live by those 10 Commandments, making the traits of the breed a huge problem.

(Typed this from my PDA, I hope it makes sense)

[Special K]

Katie- read these posts again, especially my post yesterday- none of us on here are saying our dogs are gentle, prefect creatures. What we are saying is that these ARE rough/stubborn dogs, who need extra training, extra care and very well trained owners. We are saying that too many pit owners don't realize what they have gotten into- they end up being neglectful when they don't realize it, and the dog gets in trouble.

also- go read what GoSkins posted in regard to the 10 commandments of owning a Pit Bull. If everyone followed that, things would be different.

I get you. Problem is, I'm not talking about responsbile owners such as yourself who recognize the inherent agressive nature in this breed.

There are still a lot of people in this thread, much less people out in the "real" world who continue to deny that this is an agressive breed of dog, that's the major problem, that's where you start seeing the spike in morbidities and mortalities.

That's when you have patients with mangled hands coming into the an ortho office telling us their doggy-woggy is "ooochy, goochy, kissably perfect" and just snipped at them :doh:

[skinsphan]

its sad what happened to him but we dont know the whole story. i love my pit and thats all i will ever own.

[SkinsNumberOne]

At the end of the day, dogs are still animals. We want to humanize them and treat them as thinking, reasoning human beings, but they aren't. And I love dogs.

There is a degree of instinct that may not be fully tamable, and under just the right situation that instinct may kick in.

As most here have said, there are far too many dog owners who don't understand the level of responsibility they should bear. It's sad because it's so unfair to so many people; responsible people who own dogs of the same breed who get unjustly punished, people who get affected directly by the irresponsible party... not to mention the dog itself who probably suffers in some way, any maybe ultimately gets put down instead of a nicer alternative.

[ljs]

I will agree that there isn't a single dog out there that is predisposed to kill people, and if Pit Bull owners went above and beyond with thier pets they would kill less people.

How does that sound?

works for me.

I get you. Problem is, I'm not talking about responsbile owners such as yourself who recognize the inherent agressive nature in this breed.

There are still a lot of people in this thread, much less people out in the "real" world who continue to deny that this is an agressive breed of dog, that's the major problem, that's where you start seeing the spike in morbidities and mortalities.

That's when you have patients with mangled hands coming into the an ortho office telling us their doggy-woggy is "ooochy, goochy, kissably perfect" and just snipped at them :doh:

ok, I get your point too. Good. We all just have to remember our feelings on this, as well as any other topic come from our own perspective. Victims of attacks will obviously feel one way- owners of pits will feel another, and those like you working on injured people have another perspective.

[Special K]

ok, I get your point too. Good. We all just have to remember our feelings on this, as well as any other topic come from our own perspective. Victims of attacks will obviously feel one way- owners of pits will feel another, and those like you working on injured people have another perspective.

I actually don't have a problem with people owning pits, as long as they are responsible...just like people who own rots or othe aggressive types of dogs. I have a couple friends with pits and they are very responsbile owners and they purchased dogs that aren't bred specifically to be aggressive. And I'll readily admit I have a bit of a slanted view as the people I've seen at my pop's office and casted or taken stitches out of are always at the wrong end of the dog's aggression...and more often or not they just don't "get it." :doh:

[Mark The Homer]

stricknn -

10. When posting anything concerning news articles from outside sources,

... please title your thread in the following format: "SOURCE SHORTFORM: HEADLINE" (Ex. WP: Redskins Sign CB Shawn Springs). Please see our copyright statement.

[sideshow24]

**** pit bulls. I have a shoot on sight policy for my property now. I used to run them off but not after they killed my dog and a neighbors dog. Only a matter of time before they kill a person.