WT: Workouts intensify as offense gains traction

[SoCalSkins]

This time last year, Zorn was teaching EVERYONE the offense. This included the coaches. Zorn has made mention of the coaches being able to correct the players better than last season.

He was teaching them the passing game. He was learning the running game from Buges and company.

[Skinsinparadise]

This time last year, Zorn was teaching EVERYONE the offense. This included the coaches. Zorn has made mention of the coaches being able to correct the players better than last season.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but a point of confusion for me based on what I recall reading about Zorn -- don't you guys recalling reading he was creating his own playbook in the off season and had to do it real fast considering his late hire with the OTA's coming?

Yeah I read about him having to teach it to others but I also recall him having to come up with it and I could have sworn I read that he was tinkering with it right through training camp. Yes its WCO but I am gathering every WCO guy doesn't have exactly the same playbook and you got to create some plays.

I took it similar to teaching a course to students where you know the subject but you haven't run a curriculum on it before. So in terms of that you are mastering that aspect of the course yourself during the semester while you are teaching it and staying a few weeks ahead of the students. Once you teach the course then the following year it should be a piece of cake. So that should be good for Zorn.

My point is beyond the learning curve of being a head coach I got the impression that Zorn was learning to be a play caller, too and it wasn't just the players mastering his stuff, but that he was figuring out what his stuff was. It's not like Norv or Saunders coming in with a thick playbook and a history of calling plays. Zorn from what I recall was writing his playbook.

His critics tend to say that his stuff wasn't inventive and once opposing defenses got a handle on it, it wasn't hard to stop -- I recall on a radio show a Ravens player mocked how easy the Redskins offense was to figure out. Also radio guys like Brian Mitchell said he was poor at making adjusments in games and his version of WCO wasn't aggressive enough.

If you buy into Lavarleap being an insider with the team (and a mod did back up that notion -- Zorn was all over the place as to how he tried to communicate his playbook to the offense where the players really had a hard time following what he wanted or mastering it because he was changing on the fly or something to that effect, to the degree where the players questioned his competence and the fact that Zorn would call the players out compounded their issues with him.

If you buy into Zorn's backers. He is a WCO guy. So he has a system and we all know its good. Why not look at him as a Holmgren since he comes from that system? So be patient with the guy, he knows what he is doing. He's clearly a good QB coach. He's only had a year, it takes awhile to master the system. He's been dealt a bad hand with one of the worst QB's in the NFL, one of the worst OL's or one of the worst WR's depending on the poster. The team was on fire but lost their grip once they had injuries.

I am personally somewhere in between these arguments but lean more on the question Zorn side. I have been on the Zorn bus, off it, now am undecided. But yeah I can't see how anyone with assurance can be sold against him or for him at this point. I think we have to see how it plays out this season.

[MassSkinsFan]

This time last year, Zorn was teaching EVERYONE the offense. This included the coaches. Zorn has made mention of the coaches being able to correct the players better than last season.

That's a really good point - it means he can concetrate on other things, and the coaching staff doesn't have to spend as much time talking about the offense. This should help increase the speed with which it is fully implemented.

[CM916]

I heard that Barnes had four picks to lead the defense which is great for him but I'd love to know who threw them.

[Smoot Point Really]

Sheesh... Let's tell other teams exactly what we're doing... When did Joe Biden become Head Coach?

[stoney26]

A slightly more worrying read from the Redskins 360 section in the Times is this quote below about the same OTA session.

* During a two-minute drill to wrap up practice, defensive ends Brian Orakpo and Andre Carter had their way getting around tackles Jeremy Bridges and Stephon Heyer.

http://washingtontimes.com/weblogs/redskins/2009/jun/08/monday-ota-recap-redskin-park/

Great to read about Orakpo getting after it from the DE spot in the nickle defense - not so great that the two leading candidates for the RT spot got their lunch handed to them as per this report.

If we can get the O'Line to hold up in pass protection and allow us to run right as well as left I think our defense can lead us to a playoff spot. If Campbell has to run the 'chuck and duck' again and everyone in the stadium knows we have to run left then its 8-8 again I fear.

Wait till they put the pads on before you start worrying.

[Voice_of_Reason]

This was thoroughly discussed based off of the is video, http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d81069cc4/Can-Campbell-get-it-done, and this thread, http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=288364&highlight=wilcotts. Wilcotts consistently shows 3-4 receivers going down field and Campbell optioning to go with the short receiver. It was after watching this that I realized that Zorn gave Campbell the passing opportunities to go down field.

Right, so based on 4 plays on 3rd and 15 plays, you have made a judgment on Zorn's play calling. Go back and watch full games.

Do you honestly believe that if you went back and cherry picked 4 plays of 3rd and long from the Colts last year from any game you wouldn't be able to find 4 of them where Peyton checked off too soon? I bet you anything that I could go back and find 4 identical plays for every single QB for all 32 teams.

Go check out the drive chart I posted and you find me where the down field options were in the second Dallas game. I'll save you some time. You won't find any. Funny how that didn't show up in Wilcox's piece...

[HawaiianTime]

Right, so based on 4 plays on 3rd and 15 plays, you have made a judgment on Zorn's play calling. Go back and watch full games.

I have watched full games, and as the season progressed, I found myself asking why Zorn had Campbell going short. Why wasn't he opening the playbook up and giving Campbell more options? As more and more videos have been posted, I began to see the additional receivers as well as open receivers. The clips Wilcotts hi-lighted were from 4 different games and gave me enough proof that Campbell was given options. I did

Do you honestly believe that if you went back and cherry picked 4 plays of 3rd and long from the Colts last year from any game you wouldn't be able to find 4 of them where Peyton checked off too soon? I bet you anything that I could go back and find 4 identical plays for every single QB for all 32 teams.

Go check out the drive chart I posted and you find me where the down field options were in the second Dallas game. I'll save you some time. You won't find any. Funny how that didn't show up in Wilcox's piece...

You also cherry picked with 1 out of 16 games, and you don't see me climbing all over you in my response. I'm just noting what Wilcotts, you know, a former professional turned analyst with video proof, said. I would be more than happy to entertain your point of view with greater gravity if video proof is provided.

[darrelgreenie]

I have watched full games, and as the season progressed, I found myself asking why Zorn had Campbell going short. Why wasn't he opening the playbook up and giving Campbell more options? As more and more videos have been posted, I began to see the additional receivers as well as open receivers. The clips Wilcotts hi-lighted were from 4 different games and gave me enough proof that Campbell was given options.

A few plays from 4 different game is enough proof for you?

Well i can easily point out a few great throws from some games.

What would you say then?

On NFL Playbook Brian Billick and raves about JC.

And there are numerous other NFL experts that praise JC.

There are plenty of NFL experts that praise JC.

But you guys have nothing to say about that.

But a few plays is enough to convince you?

Okay....:doh:

Also, like VOR said and other people within the thread pointed out the same cherry picked video could be made of every QB in the league.

*BTW

In one of the Wilcotts plays JC is getting pressured up the middle by Rodgers.

There is another play where imo the receiver isn't open when JC was ready to throw the ball. (You were welcome to discuss the play in the thread but didn't)

[DieselPwr44]

I hate this time of year.

Every year it's the same thing...someone gets interviewed and spews a bunch of garbage about how awesome the offense is looking.

Then they come out on the field in September and can barely find their way to the endzone.

Shut up already......

[HawaiianTime]

*BTW

In one of the Wilcotts plays JC is getting pressured up the middle by Rodgers.

There is another play where imo the receiver isn't open when JC was ready to throw the ball. (You were welcome to discuss the play in the thread but didn't)

I believe you pointed this out to me and either you or someone else made the same remarks. I didn't comeback to it because I'm still mulling over the rhythm issue and the difficulty to change it. See, here's the questions that I have. Did the play call for a short pass with the longer routes as decoys? If yes, than I understand for the quick underneath pass and the rhythm. If it is a long/deep pass with the option of the underneath, than why the quick rhythm? Stuff I don't think any of us have the answer to, therefore not something I can comment/argue about. It would be easy to say JC should have waited, but I don't know what the play was meant to be. I know that there were 4 receivers going downfield and like you said, the other 3 were no yet open when JC released the ball. We can extrapolate more arguments, but it still didn't change the fact that the down receivers were not open and Thrash was. Was the play supposed to be a short with 3 long decoys? Was there misunderstandings about the play? We could go on and on, and still not come to a consensus. Arguing can be fun, but not a perpetual one. Sorry if I didn't continue with it, but I saw no point as none of us had the proper answers to fill in the blanks.

[darrelgreenie]

I believe you pointed this out to me and either you or someone else made the same remarks. I didn't comeback to it because I'm still mulling over the rhythm issue and the difficulty to change it. See, here's the questions that I have. Did the play call for a short pass with the longer routes as decoys? If yes, than I understand for the quick underneath pass and the rhythm. If it is a long/deep pass with the option of the underneath, than why the quick rhythm? Stuff I don't think any of us have the answer to, therefore not something I can comment/argue about. It would be easy to say JC should have waited, but I don't know what the play was meant to be. I know that there were 4 receivers going downfield and like you said, the other 3 were no yet open when JC released the ball. We can extrapolate more arguments, but it still didn't change the fact that the down receivers were not open and Thrash was. Was the play supposed to be a short with 3 long decoys? Was there misunderstandings about the play? We could go on and on, and still not come to a consensus. Arguing can be fun, but not a perpetual one. Sorry if I didn't continue with it, but I saw no point as none of us had the proper answers to fill in the blanks.

But, my point is that the play wasn't even a good example of JC missing an open receiver.

Wilcotts showed a few plays and 2 of the plays aren't even good examples of the point he was trying prove.

Yet, it is enough for you to disreagrd all of the other comments from other analsyst about JC?

[HawaiianTime]

Yet, it is enough for you to disreagrd all of the other comments from other analsyst about JC?

I don't disregard them, unless we are talking about Jaws, but that's another story. I have my preferences, but I am open enough to listen to the different opinions. The opinions tend to have greater weight behind them when video proof is provided. I agree, Wilcotts probably did not see everything the same as others did, but he did give compelling arguments. I believe there was another thread we discussed a video clip were Thomas (IMO was open) was a receiver and JC was sacked on that play. I know we went back and forth on that one, but I dropped it as the frame did not contain the defender, only his shadow, so it would have been pointless to continue. I'll be honest, unless an analyst shows video to back his arguments, his piece becomes more opinion than fact. Even then, as in Wilcotts case, a grain of salt should be taken because it is only one perspective on a play. Without prior knowledge of what play was supposed to actually transpire, we only get part of the story. That is why my opinion can change depending on what support is made towards an argument. Like Jaws says JC is Great, yet all I've seen is average with flashes of good. I've since tuned Jaws out because he hasn't given me anything visual to support his claims.

Edit: Note, I'm still trying to figure out what average is. No, I don't think Rex Grossman is average, I believe he is below average (sucks to be exact).

[Morneblade]

I dunno, I think Jaws is as good as it comes to breaking stuff down. I'd take his opinion over most guys that do commentary.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't disregard them, unless we are talking about Jaws, but that's another story. I have my preferences, but I am open enough to listen to the different opinions. The opinions tend to have greater weight behind them when video proof is provided. I agree, Wilcotts probably did not see everything the same as others did, but he did give compelling arguments.

BTW- Wilcotts argument was that Zorn needed to open the playbook and go downfield more.

Expert opinion backed up by visual proof huh?

Brian Billick and Greg Cossel.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d80bf357c/WK-8-Santana-Moss-highlights

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d80c14d69/WK-8-Anatomy-Campbell-go-ahead-TDs-to-Moss

Notice that in both the Saints and the Lions big play JC had to avoid pressure?

So after viewing these what your opinion now?

Anyway we are waaayyy of the OP.

HTTR!

[HawaiianTime]

I dunno, I think Jaws is as good as it comes to breaking stuff down. I'd take his opinion over most guys that do commentary.

Liked the guy when I was a kid, maybe I just liked the name Jaworski (shrugs), but when he went off on Colt with out giving some video support, all I could wonder was whether or not he actually saw any of the games and video on Colt. I was stunned that a pro wouldn't take more of a wait and see approach like most of his fellow analysts. It seemed more of a personal rant than a professional assessment towards a player. It didn't have to be about Colt either. The fact that it came across as a personal rant showed a lack of professionalism I'd come to expect and enjoyed from his fellow analysts. I mean, kid and joke, but give me some meat and potatoes to chew on as well.

[darrelgreenie]

Liked the guy when I was a kid, maybe I just liked the name Jaworski (shrugs), but when he went off on Colt with out giving some video support, all I could wonder was whether or not he actually saw any of the games and video on Colt. I was stunned that a pro wouldn't take more of a wait and see approach like most of his fellow analysts. It seemed more of a personal rant than a professional assessment towards a player. It didn't have to be about Colt either. The fact that it came across as a personal rant showed a lack of professionalism I'd come to expect and enjoyed from his fellow analysts. I mean, kid and joke, but give me some meat and potatoes to chew on as well.

Its sounds like you don't like Jaws b/c of what he said about Colt?

It sounds pretty accurate.

Dude, i like Colt.

But, i agree that Colt is a long term project and that is how we are treating him.

Give Zorn 3 years with him and i think the kid can play.

[HawaiianTime]

Notice that in both the Saints and the Lions big play JC had to avoid pressure?

So after viewing these what your opinion now?

Anyway we are waaayyy of the OP.

Well, time to tie all of this back in to the OP.

Seems like last year's offensive struggles and "poor play calling" was the result of Zorn not being able to open up the playbook "because of the practice time spent honing the basics." Hopefully, more of the playbook will be used this year and we will see an offense that can remain consistently productive throughout the season.

Everything we talked about revolved around Zorn's play calling or lack of, to give the offense/JC the ability to move the ball downfield. As I've been recently posting, I'm at a wait and see for JC. I believe he is an Excellent Game Manager and seems to be very comfortable in that role. That he is also able to at times show flashes of greatness. It will be interesting to see as training camp and preseason progresses to see if he progresses to a Game Leader, or whether or not the Skins will even need a Game Leader. Zorn does talk about JC a lot, but I really don't know how to take it as I haven't really heard very much on how TC is doing either. I have my opinions and will wait to see if they are validated. But, overall, from what I have read, it does seem the team is further ahead and healthier at that. It will be great to read and see the pictures of training camp from you guys. Like everyone else, I trying to scrape everybit of information on the Skins that I can.

Thanks DG, I'll see if there's anything in the clips I can discuss with you in greater detail. Have a great weekend.

[darrelgreenie]

Have a great weekend.

u2

Mahalo brotha!

HTTR!