NYT: Tea Parties Forever by Krugman

[dcoles11]

Great response to my question, avoid backing your own comment.

"Many" of them forgot permits? Hmmm.....one that I know of didn't have the aspect of dumping tea bags on their permit. Even at that though, I'll give you that one. One...there may have been a few others. Considering there were hundreds of protests today, maybe over a thousand, that's an extremely small amount.

*And that one idiot was just that, an idiot. What's the point? One person ****ed it up for many. Good point!

There really was no point, you mentioned legalities which reminded me of some of the legal issues that these teabaggers ran into today.

You should probably calm down just a tad.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

There really was no point, you mentioned legalities which reminded me of some of the legal issues that these teabaggers ran into today.

You should probably calm down just a tad.

Why should I calm down? Because I'm refuting a "point" you made? I don't see anger or hate in my tone or writing....I don't get it?

[dcoles11]

Why should I calm down? Because I'm refuting a "point" you made? I don't see anger or hate in my tone or writing....I don't get it?

What point are you refuting? I didn't make a point nor did I attempt to make one. I simply stated something that actually happened. I didn't state how often it happened, I simply stated that it happened.

You brought up legalities, so I said, "speaking of legalities" I in no way was even commenting on your statement as a whole.

Maybe I should have only quoted you saying, "legalities". But I figured you'd realize I wasn't really commenting directly on your statement when I didn't make any attempt to.

As far as calming down, you just seemed a little excited to me, you used a ! mark and the profanity filter got you at the end

[ccsl2]

It's not about taking it with intense seriousness. I mean this is just a message board and I'm here for Redskins talk. All of this is just time fillers

I just figured since you made a remark criticizing where these are taken place that your criticism would at least be intelligent. I'm sorry I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

People can be such idiots. This one guy at the protest today had a shirt saying "Puck Obama - Palin's hockey team". I told him to stick it and that's not what we were all out there for.

Concerning the racist remarks, they are stupid and all they do is divide. The good part is is that the minority that takes part in racial comments and stupid, unintelligible signs doesn't reflect the majority.

I heard more racial comments yelled at the protesters by drivers passing by than any stupid comments made by the protesters themselves.

*I was laughing at one sign someone made today because they obviously didn't account for the "-ed" at the end of one of the words on the sign. It was squished it on the side after the word :laugh:

Every reply I make in a thread is not meant to be "intelligent". Sometimes is just to lighten the mood/try to be funny in the thread. I guess that didn't happen with you. It's cool though. No big deal.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

What point are you refuting? I didn't make a point nor did I attempt to make one. I simply stated something that actually happened. I didn't state how often it happened, I simply stated that it happened.

You brought up legalities, so I said, "speaking of legalities" I in no way was even commenting on your statement as a whole.

Maybe I should have only quoted you saying, "legalities". But I figured you'd realize I wasn't really commenting directly on your statement when I didn't make any attempt to.

As far as calming down, you just seemed a little excited to me, you used a ! mark and the profanity filter got you at the end

I was backing protesters decisions on where to protest as well as who is out there protesting what (at least I think so, between you and ccsl2 I can't remember who was saying what )

I use profanity way too casually. When I'm not cussing is when I'm serious because it's then that I'm actually thinking about what I'm saying and coming up with better ways to express myself. Jot that down for future confrontations

Every reply I make in a thread is not meant to be "intelligent". Sometimes is just to lighten the mood/try to be funny in the thread. I guess that didn't happen with you. It's cool though. No big deal.

Sorry, I'll keep that in mind and excuse anything you say that I feel is lacking intelligence as you just being a smart ass. That way you'll always have the benefit of the doubt :cool2:

[hkHog]

You mean the, "chicken in every pot and a car in every garage," American dream. Well now, due to the out of control cost of living, most people are living from paycheck to paycheck to pay for that car and the garage that it's housed in. They've also switched to having Hamburger Helper on the stove, because that's all they have money left for.

Are you talking about the American dream where we have realistically priced health care, top notch schools for our children, more lenient work schedules that allow us to relax and actually have a life (and still make a good living), and college that's not so expensive that it doesn't lead to life-long debt. Well, they're already living that dream in much of Western Europe. Not here, unless you're fortunate enough to be super rich.

Wow, you really think people in Europe are better off? In the USA we have unemployment at 8-9% and its the worst recession we have ever seen. Well in France and Germany that's the norm. They always have weak growth and a lower rate of children go to college. They are already in massive debt and their national health programs are all broke. They are so upset with the way things are there that recently conservatives have been elected across the continent. In addition, their economies have been just as affected by ours in this recession and their stock markets are down by much larger percentages than ours is. Following the European model is not the way to prosperity.

[twist]

The people participating in these events are sincere, but this is not simply a "true grass roots movement." There appears to be a lot of astroturfing going on.

Of course, astroturfing is not necessarily illegitimate. Sometime events that are organized or coordinated or promoted behind the scenes still can reflect a genuine popular sentiment.

The problem is that when true grass roots protests are held they are pretty much ignored by the media unless there is a riot.

Now we have corporate sponsored protests for causes that benefit those who control the media, and "free speech zones" for those who do not.

It's about the GOP and Democratic Party (as with this opinion piece) having the sheep voters get with the program, rather than have them focus on the massive fraud and collusion that they participated in that is destroying a good number of honest American livelihoods.

[mjah]

NO, some think that the spending is pointless and won't work. They don't want to see everything go up becuase one man thinks he can spend his way out of the mess and be the hero.

If what you've typed above is really what you think about Obama's basic plan, then I'm sorry to hear it. But hey, believe what you want.

How exactly did bush get us into this. The war?? gonna say the housing and credit problem is his fault too.

Last time I checked the dems ran the depts related to freddie and fanny. I do recall Bush and his people warning the dems about this and they ignored the warnings.

SO exactly how did bush create all of this??

Gotta be careful about putting words in people's mouths, 81. It makes you come off as an unreliable narrator. I'm more than happy to oblige your request for clarification.

I said Bush spent like a drunken sailor on idiotic things. And he did. I also said he bears a large share of the responsibility (though not all of the responsibility -- Reading Is Fundamental, 81) for the mess we're in. And that's true as well.

This is all well documented elsewhere, but here's a partial list. First, Bush sent us into war in Iraq for foolish reasons. Please, let's not pretend to blame someone else. It was his administration's baby and entirely his decision. $3 trillion in committed American dollars later, that's on him -- just like his role model Harry Truman said. Fail.

Blaming only Democrats for the housing failure is disingenuous at best. Congress under Republican control failed to pass any bills against predatory lending or regulate subprime mortgages in any way, for over a decade. After recovering control over Congress, Democrats tried to pass a predatory lending bill and got it through the House. Bush and the Republicans killed it. And Bush had the power to exercise regulatory control over lenders, investment banks, and securities markets. His administration even identified the housing situation as a problem! But when it came time to act, they just punted. Honestly, I have no idea why they did that. It would have been a big win. They just didn't act. Fail.

As for Fannie and Freddie, Bush had his party majority in both houses of Congress. Yet no regulation came from Congress regarding the health of the debt GSEs could buy. Bush wasn't alone in failing to regulate the GSEs, but he had the best opportunity of any president in a generation to get it done. Yet he didn't. Fail.

The Bush administration reduced the scope and comprehensiveness of regulation of CRA lenders. Clinton shares a lot of blame for this too. But of course the worst abuse of lax lending regulation took off well into Bush's administration. And how did CRA regulation change? It was reduced. Remarkable. Fail.

According to Bush's own words, his administration didn't start working on the housing crisis until August 2007. Amazing. Seems kinda late, huh? Fail.

All of which contributed massively to the housing disaster which we now face, and which has helped cut the legs out of the economy.

In the mean time, overall spending skyrocketed under Bush Jr. He vetoed exactly 12 bills, total, during his 8 years in office. He basically gave Congress whatever they wanted as long as they were predominantly GOP. LBJ and Carter also had friendly Congresses and they each vetoed almost 3 dozen bills apiece! Fail.

Look at the way presidents have rescinded Congressional spending allocations:

Carter $4.6 B

Reagan $43.4 B

Bush Sr. $13.1 B

Clinton $6.6 B

Bush Jr. $0

Zero! Fail.

Was Congress really that smart about spending? (Hint: Congress is NEVER smart about spending.)

And this is probably less than half of what I could be typing here. I'll just stop now. No need to go on.

Drunken sailor spending, poor zero fingers on the pulse of the economy. OF COURSE Bush shoulders a huge amount of the blame for the mess we're in now! Hard to believe that these days anyone would honestly believe otherwise.

Nobody is uniquely to blame. The tea party folks had better be protesting Bush too, or else they're really fooling themselves.

[IHOPSkins]

......First, Bush sent us into war in Iraq for foolish reasons. Please, let's not pretend to blame someone else. It was his administration's baby and entirely his decision. $3 trillion in committed American dollars later, that's on him -- just like his role model Harry Truman said. Fail.

Blaming only Democrats for the housing failure is disingenuous at best......

Bush's baby?

I guess the vote for war in congress was not bipartisan?

Blaming only Republicans are we

[IHOPSkins]

....Why are we shocked by this - CNN left, Fox right. Can we finally move on from that.

Not Yet

Concerning CNNs anti Tea Party Rant....

A Fox News spokesperson responds to TVNewser, "Judging by their lack of ratings, everyone seems to be anti-CNN."

• More: FNC's Shepard Smith responds in his own inimitable way on Studio B:

"I've just learned it's Anti-CNN day. I know, right? I had no freakin' clue."

Later: "Just a minute ago, that Susan Roesgen, from that CNN, that people used to watch a long time ago..."

And still later: "Anti-CNN? Who's anti-CNN, settle down Susan! Come on girl."

And even later: "Poor Susan Roesgen, nobody hates you, everybody ... we love the CNN. Relax everybody. Don't get your hate on."

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/cnn/cnn_reporter_at_chicago_tea_party_its_anticnn_since_this_is_highly_promoted_by_the_rightwing_conservative_network_fox_114141.asp

Now Thats Funny

[Tarpon75]

Where was there anger for the last 8 ****ing years that put us in this deficit? Bush turned a surplus into a deficit and didn't try to do **** to fix the economy. How do you propose to fix a deficit? A ****ing Tea Party sponsored by coporate lobbyists??

Do you mean during the 2 previous years under the watch of a Dem. led congress?You certainly don't fix a deficit by spending money that isn't there.

[Tarpon75]

This is so stupid. The American patriots were protesting taxation without representation, there is none of that here.

Most people just got a tax break thanks to Obama and the Congress. The only people who will have their taxes increase are the upper tax group, and that won’t happen until Bush’s tax cuts expire. It is much ado about nothing. I think it is an excuse for the Republican base to whine about Democrats, Obama, gay people, brown and black people, etc.

You are dead wrong there is very little representation of the people.The politicians left and right pretty much do what they want.Taxes will be going up .Where else would the money come from to finance all this spending? Obama apparently needed no excuse to travel abroad and whine about how arrogant this country is.

[Spartacus87]

You are dead wrong there is very little representation of the people.The politicians left and right pretty much do what they want.Taxes will be going up .Where else would the money come from to finance all this spending? Obama apparently needed no excuse to travel abroad and whine about how arrogant this country is.

That might be true if that actually happened in that context. From the actual speech it seems you're referring to:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/03/obama-calls-out-european_n_182740.html

"In America, there is a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

But in Europe, there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual, but can also be insidious. Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what is bad.

On both sides of the Atlantic, these attitudes have become all too common. They are not wise. They do not represent the truth. They threaten to widen the divide across the Atlantic and leave us both more isolated. They fail to acknowledge the fundamental truth that America cannot confront the challenges of this century alone, but that Europe cannot confront them without America."

[dcoles11]

Do you mean during the 2 previous years under the watch of a Dem. led congress?You certainly don't fix a deficit by spending money that isn't there.

By the Dem. led congress do you mean that 51-49 majority which included 2 independents, one of which Liberman who supported McCain?

I love the revisionist history that goes on the minds of some people.

You do realize that if that "dem. lead congress" you claim existed passed a bill that all Bush had to do was veto it and that would be the end of it, being that the senate would then have to pass it by a 2/3's majority at that point.

Basically, if there was a bill that passed that you didn't like, it was passed by Bush or had a lot of backing from Republican senators.

Who is spreading this excuse? I've heard it a couple of times, Hannity or Limbaugh right?

[Special K]

Jeezo. WTF are people so pissed about here? Let people have their Tea Parties.

Personally, I happen to very much agree with them: I think Obama is spending us into oblivion and we are going to be screwed and tatooed if we suffer a major natural disaster or terrorist attack anytime in the near future.

I can't even imagine if Bush tried a tactic like this to get the U.S. out of this economic disaster. He would be crucified for this...it's actually pretty interesting seeing peopl defend Obama's actions now while yelling at Bush then. It's not even the U.S.S.A, it's our indebtedness to China that has me worried.

As for my personal opinion about Obama, he can take his tax increases and go shove it as far as I'm concerned. He can also spare me, my family, and my friends the lecture that we have to sacrifice for his stupid ass economic plan.

[NavyDave]

"Last but not least: it turns out that the tea parties don’t represent a spontaneous outpouring"

BS

There are 5....count'em 5 in my county alone

Hit Piece

Duh your county and rest of the state is full of those who expect entitlements which also explains the current condition of Cali. Enjoy that highest sales in the nation.

[NavyDave]

those Taxed Enough Already parties which were dissed, ignored or down played by the liberal media, yet attended by all demographics, races, and political affiliations is just a start.

[SnyderShrugged]

I feel bad for SS, this was essentially a campaign for liberty type grass-root event that has been hijacked by movement conservatives.

My real beef is with people like Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, the entire pajamas media crowd, the free republic folks, etc. I have serious problems with movement conservatives. Where were they when it mattered? They were too busy cheering on the national-security state and blaming liberals for everything. It is amusing to see people like Malkin complain about the DHS report ( you reep what you sow) and general government abuse. This is the same women ( pretty much applies with all movement conservatives) who cheered every damn civil liberty abuse under Bush's watch, for god's sake the women even defended the idea of interment.

Don't feel too bad, it's par for the course. I'm actually a little excited that some (a very few) in the GOP might be actually starting to "get it" now. I'll not pretend that it's legit, nor that its not most likely a co-opting of what I saw as a set of ideals that closely matches what I believe in.

Even if just a few people saw the forest for the trees at the Tea Parties, it's a win in my book.

[SnyderShrugged]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/04/ron-paul-tea-party-tea-parties-income-tax.html

Was Ron Paul, tea party re-inventor, right all along?

Ron Paul told us long ago. And so did the supporters of this one-time Libertarian presidential candidate.

Maybe you remember about 16 months ago the 11-term Texas Republican representative, who's now organized a new Campaign for Liberty, was raking in more political contributions each month than most other GOP presidential candidates, relying on his hundreds of thousands of fervent supporters staging their money bomb days of online donations and -- oh, yes – tea parties.

In many cases today’s media coverage of some 700+ tax protesting tea parties across the country ended up telling us more about the media than the rallies, which sure had some angry guests for “tea parties.”

Cable channels tended to cover and debate the events along their predictable viewership lines, with Fox News taking them seriously while acknowledging their critics, and MSNBC generally dismissing....

...them as lame organizing attempts by a gasping Republican party that opposes Obama on everything, except maybe perhaps shooting Somali pirates dead in the head.

Anyone monitoring varied blog comments and Twitter exchanges in recent days, however, recognizes the familiar grassroots flavor of the dedicated past Paulites in their chatrooms, exchanging organizing tips, alerting each other, making signs and alerting the media.

Many Republican politicians back home for the Easter recess, which seems to last well past the time that anyone else gets to mark that holiday, appeared to be playing catch-up, inviting themselves to the local rallies.

While some tried to portray the events as merely anti-tax rallies, pointing out that President Obama wants to cut taxes for 95% of Americans making under $250,000, feelings at these events included more varied angers, including Wall Street bailouts, huge spending plans, anticipated deficits and debts, and the general economic unease and uncertainty afflicting many Americans.

“We’re not happy with the stimulus. We’re not happy with earmarks. And we’re not happy with runaway spending,” said one tea party attendee, who opted against a Revolution-era costume.

Paul's liberty campaign today sought to remind folks of its role in the re-genesis of tea parties in 2007. But few noticed that e-mails and Tweets are already flying around about online planning of similar rallies on July 4th, Independence Day.

With more than one-third of all income earners already excluded from paying income taxes, the frustration and fervor among many who do pay seemed fed by the White House budget’s immense spending numbers and anticipated debt with more zeroes than most personal calculators can display.

The event, timed to April 15 tax filing day, did provide an organizing opportunity early in the Obama administration for conservative-minded voters who were otherwise overwhelmed in last November’s elections that produced a Democratic president and two Democrat-controlled houses of Congress.

The new Democratic administration did everything it could today to diminish the PR media impact of thousands of protesters across the country, including across the street from the White House, scheduling an Obama speech on taxes and simplifying the complex tax code, releasing the Obama and Biden family tax returns and making Press Secretary Robert Gibbs available live to laugh derisively with Ed Schultz on MSNBC over the pathetic rallies and the impossibility of them being in any way organic.

The question, of course, remains whether the grassroots organizers with complicit political allies can over time turn the anger into an actual effective political movement, as Howard Jarvis did with the anti-tax Prop. 13 in California years ago. And which party can most effectively tap into the protesters’ anger, using the new social networking methods that Obama’s campaign itself employed so well the last two years.

Meanwhile, since he proved so prescient last year about the approaching economic bust, here are some of Ron Paul’s recent thoughts on taxes and government spending, which, it may not surprise you to learn, he blames for much of the contemporary economic turmoil:

Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history.

Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck.

The harmful effects of the income tax are obvious. First and foremost, it has enabled government to expand far beyond its proper constitutional limits, regulating virtually every aspect of our lives. It has given government a claim on our lives and work, destroying our privacy in the process.

It takes billions of dollars out of the legitimate private economy, with most Americans giving more than a third of everything they make to the federal government. This economic drain destroys jobs and penalizes productive behavior.

The ridiculous complexity of the tax laws makes compliance a nightmare for both individuals and businesses.

Is it impossible to end the income tax? I don't believe so. In fact, I believe a serious groundswell movement of disaffected taxpayers is growing in this country. Millions of Americans are fed up with the current tax system, and they will bring pressure on Congress.

-- Andrew Malcolm

[#98QBKiller]

That's a pretty fair article by Malcolm. My question is, where were all of these Tea Party protests during the Bush administration?

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

those Taxed Enough Already parties which were dissed, ignored or down played by the liberal media, yet attended by all demographics, races, and political affiliations is just a start.

Here's a game for the board:

Find a tea party picture that has ONE black person in it. Because I've probably looked at 100 different pictures the last day or so (reading the funny/stupid signs) and I've yet to see one. ND isn't the first one to claim that it was attended by all races. But all I see is old white people, older white people, and little kids being used as props.

And Alan Keyes doesn't count.

BTW, fivethirtyeight is estimating total turnout across the nation at 262,025 or so. Which is pretty hurting imo.

[Rdskn4Lyf21]

That's a pretty fair article by Malcolm. My question is, where were all of these Tea Party protests during the Bush administration?

I wish more and more that I voted for Ron Paul...I won't mess up in 2012!

Personally I didn't become interested in politics deeply until this past election. In the last year or so I didn't agree with some things that the Bush administration did, especially the TARP program, but being unemployed now I've had more time to follow along and get "involved". I'm sorry I wasn't more aware beyond that point.

[SnyderShrugged]

That's a pretty fair article by Malcolm. My question is, where were all of these Tea Party protests during the Bush administration?

I sure wish conservatives had made a stand (and not just the Ron Paul conservatives) back then.

[SnyderShrugged]

Here's a game for the board:

Find a tea party picture that has ONE black person in it. Because I've probably looked at 100 different pictures the last day or so (reading the funny/stupid signs) and I've yet to see one. ND isn't the first one to claim that it was attended by all races. But all I see is old white people, older white people, and little kids being used as props.

And Alan Keyes doesn't count.

BTW, fivethirtyeight is estimating total turnout across the nation at 262,025 or so. Which is pretty hurting imo.

May I ask....why does it matter? Anyone was free to participate and any african american would not have felt unwelcome to attend.

[#98QBKiller]

I wish more and more that I voted for Ron Paul...I won't mess up in 2012!

Personally I didn't become interested in politics deeply until this past election. In the last year or so I didn't agree with some things that the Bush administration did, especially the TARP program, but being unemployed now I've had more time to follow along and get "involved". I'm sorry I wasn't more aware beyond that point.

Hey man, better late than never. You'll have another chance in 2010 for the Senate elections for your voice to be heard. You can use the time between now and the next two elections to brush up on politics and the political system and find who best represents you.

I sure wish conservatives had made a stand (and not just the Ron Paul conservatives) back then.

I think the Ron Paul movement was a little late. I feel like he could've made a bigger impact in 2004 with the war fresh on everyone's minds.