AP: Demjanjuk to appeal ruling allowing deportation

[JMS]

I don't know if you guys remember this case or not. I didn't know this long discredited case was even still going on. Proof our justice system is seriously flawed.

To Recap. A retired Cleveland auto worker John Demjanjuk in late 1980's was accused of being the infamous concentration camp guard Ivan the Terrible. Accused of murdering and torturing thousands he confronted many many tearful testimonies on the stand of all the evil he had reportedly done. His personal testimoney and what witnesses he could assemble, we not nearly as convincing, theatrical, or as politically correct as those who accused him. Thus the Ukranian, Demjanjuk lost the extradition case in the US, along with his US citizenship of 40 years and was deported to Israel. But not before an undersecretary of State resigned saying Mr Demjanjuk was being railroaded and important documentation proving his innocences had been suppressed...

In Israel, Mr Demjanjuk was tried and convicted of being Ivan the terrible as again, many surviving death camp internee's pointed their fingers at him identifying him as Ivan the terrible through teary eyes. In an appeal to his conviction and death sentence, in Israel new evidence from the just collapsed Soviet Union proved beyond a doubt that Mr Demjanjuk was not Ivan the Terrible. Ivan the terrible had been captured in the 50's by Stalin and died in Siberia after sampling the hostitality of the Soviet justice system. The soviet evidence was beyond question. They had Ivan's photographic ID badge along with his papers captured with the Soviet prisoner. They also had photographs of the real Ivan the terrible, who did in fact look somewhat like Mr Demjanjuk.

In the face of this irrefutalbe evidence, the Israeli courts said, no problem, He's not Ivan the Terrible anylonger, now he's another death camp guard and they convicted him of that and tried to keep the same execution date. The case went all the way up to the Israeli supreme court, and to their credit the high court of Israel said. No can do. You can't convict a guy of being Ivan the terrible one day, and then with no other evidence other than the fact that you now know he wasn't Ivan the Terrible; convict him of being somebody else.

If the original evidence wasn't enough to convince you he was Mr. X originally, and you decided he was Ivan the Terrible; then by definition the evidence you have that he was Mr. X is not good enough.

Israel thus released him. But it seems some have continued to hound this man for the last 20 years. It's an incredible miscarrige of justice that this man is still fighting these legal witch hunts..

http://www.ktla.com/landing_national/?Demjanjuk-to-appeal-ruling-allowing-depo=1&blockID=259419&feedID=23

Demjanjuk to appeal ruling allowing deportation

CLEVELAND (AP) — Suspected Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk (dehm-YAHN'-yuk) intends to appeal a U.S. immigration judge's decision that paves the way for his deportation to Germany.

A German arrest warrant accuses the 89-year-old suburban Cleveland man of 29,000 counts of acting as an accessory to murder at a death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland in 1943. He denies involvement in any deaths.

An immigration judge on Monday revoked Demjanjuk's stay of deportation.

His son, John Demjanjuk Jr., says an appeal will be filed by Tuesday with the Board of Immigration Appeals in Falls Church, Va.

Demjanjuk came to the U.S. after World War II and is seeking to remain in the U.S. because of poor health. He says being forced to travel to Germany would amount to torture.

[PeterMP]

Well, wiki doesn't exactly tell it like you do. Part of the original process was in fact identification by other guards, and there is pretty good evidence that he was involved in SOME Nazi prison camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk

[PeterMP]

sorry .

[Larry]

Well, wiki doesn't exactly tell it like you do. Part of the original process was in fact identification by other guards, and there is pretty good evidence that he was involved in SOME Nazi prison camp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk

In your opinion, is that good enough?

Is it good enough that you suspect that somebody was a Nazi, but you aren't sure of actually where?

Can I convict you of bank robbery without actually knowing which bank you robbed?

[Larry]

Possible way to resolve this: Put the guy on trial in the US.

Is that a good enough solution? If the guy gets convicted in the US, then he can be punished. If the evidence isn't good enough, then well, he's already been tried.

Good enough, in this case?

[JMS]

In your opinion, is that good enough?

Is it good enough that you suspect that somebody was a Nazi, but you aren't sure of actually where?

Can I convict you of bank robbery without actually knowing which bank you robbed?

I think what really crushes Peter's argument, and the claim that their is good evidence that he is actually this other death camp guard; is the fact that Mr. Demjanjuk was tried and convicted of being Ivan the Terrible both in US courts where he was deported; and in Israel where he was sentenced to death....

This now conviently convincing data that he was another guard in another camp was known at that time and was disgarded because they thought the case identifying him as Ivan was more creditable....

This is a highly controversial case and as I've said, the oposition to Mr. Demjanjuk are motivated. I wouldn't trust Wikipedia on this one..

[JMS]

Possible way to resolve this: Put the guy on trial in the US.

Is that a good enough solution? If the guy gets convicted in the US, then he can be punished. If the evidence isn't good enough, then well, he's already been tried.

Good enough, in this case?

He was convicted of being Ivan the Terrible in the US more than a decade ago and deported, over the strong objections of the undersecretary of state who resigned over the conviction.

Problem is we now have inrefutable evidence suppressed in the US trial, that he was not Ivan the Terrible...

The prosecution both in the US, and in Israel have not been able to produce any new evidence since their initial sucesses in convicting him of being the wrong guy. That's what makes the claims he's this other guy so farsical. Israel's high court has washed their hands of this case. They don't want him back. That's why now his harassers are trying ot deport the Ukrainian/American Demjanjuk, to Germany to stand trial because that's one court system which hasn't already been exhausted...

They want a new bite at the apple, only with already discredited evidence.

They are literally trying to harrase this old man to death... It's a travesty.

[PeterMP]

I think what really crushes Peter's argument, and the claim that their is good evidence that he is actually this other death camp guard; is the fact that Mr. Demjanjuk was tried and convicted of being Ivan the Terrible both in US courts where he was deported; and in Israel where he was sentenced to death....

This now conviently convincing data that he was another guard in another camp was known at that time and was disgarded because they thought the case identifying him as Ivan was more creditable....

This is a highly controversial case and as I've said, the oposition to Mr. Demjanjuk are motivated. I wouldn't trust Wikipedia on this one..

If you're not going to trust wiki you are really going to have come with some sources of your own. From wiki,:

The Israeli Supreme Court's 405-page ruling read: "The main issue of the indictment sheet filed against the appellant was his identification as Ivan the Terrible, an operator of the gas chambers in the extermination camp at Treblinka ... By virtue of this gnawing [new evidence indicating mistaken identity] ... we restrained ourselves from convicting the appellant of the horrors of Treblinka. Ivan Demjanjuk has been acquitted by us, because of doubt, of the terrible charges attributed to Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka. This was the proper course for judges who cannot examine the heart and mind, but have only what their eyes see and read."

The new evidences was Soviet records that showed that Ivan had a different surname. It isn't clear when that evidence came about. He was initially convicted in 1988. This ruling was released in 1993.

[PeterMP]

In your opinion, is that good enough?

Is it good enough that you suspect that somebody was a Nazi, but you aren't sure of actually where?

Can I convict you of bank robbery without actually knowing which bank you robbed?

It depends on how the law is written. I know little about immigration law or laws in other countries. If not disclosing you were a member of the SS is enough to get your citizenship revoked, then I think based on the evidence in the wiki page, he's citizenship should be revoked. If the law in country X allows for a conviction based on the evidence that they have, then that is up to country X.

"The principal allegation was that Demjanjuk was "Ivan Grozny" or "Ivan the Terrible" of Treblinka, who operated the diesel engines sending gas to the death chamber.[6] Prosecutors based part of these allegations on an ID card, but defense attorneys countered that the card was forged by Soviet authorities to discredit Demjanjuk. The card had Demjanjuk's photograph, which he identified as his picture at the time, as well as signatures of various Nazi officers who were deposed and confirmed the authenticity of their signatures. The paper and ink on the card were tested by internationally renowned experts who confirmed that the card was authentic. The original of the card was presented in court in Israel as supplied by the Soviets."

He has admitted to having an SS tatoo. He had an SS card that has been verified by experts looking at the ink and the card, and other Nazi officials confirming it is his signature (again, unless wiki is wrong).

[Larry]

He has admitted to having an SS tatoo. He had an SS card that has been verified by experts looking at the ink and the card, and other Nazi officials confirming it is his signature (again, unless wiki is wrong).

And the card (based on the little I've read, just this thread) says he was Ivan the Terrible. Which even the prosecution now says is not true.

(I suspect that part of my problem is that I have trouble believing that it's possible to be certain about much of anything, after all this time. And I'll confess to really wishing that the whole thing were over. But I can certainly understand why some people think we shouldn't just quit, either.)

[PeterMP]

And the card (based on the little I've read, just this thread) says he was Ivan the Terrible. Which even the prosecution now says is not true.

(I suspect that part of my problem is that I have trouble believing that it's possible to be certain about much of anything, after all this time. And I'll confess to really wishing that the whole thing were over. But I can certainly understand why some people think we shouldn't just quit, either.)

My understanding is that the card has his real/current name. What got him off of the Ivan the Terrible charge was that Soviet documents showed that the last name of Ivan was something different and didn't match his last name, and therefore what was on the card. At the time he (as indicated by the card) he was known as Demjanjuk, but the people that knew Ivan (based on the Soviet documents) remember Ivan's last name as something else.

[Larry]

My next question is, how much time did he serve in an Israeli Jail For Convicted Nazi War Criminals?

[JMS]

The new evidences was Soviet records that showed that Ivan had a different surname. It isn't clear when that evidence came about. He was initially convicted in 1988. This ruling was released in 1993.

Pete, Israel convicted and sentenced John Demjanjuk to death not as John Demjanjuk, but because they said he was Ivan the terrible, and had many many witnesses which testified both that he was Ivan the terrible, and about all the grusome things Mr Demjanjuk did as Ivan the terrible.

Then upon appeal, irrefutable evidence came out of the soviet union proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mr. Demjanjuk was in fact not Ivan the terrible.

The Prosecutors then retried Mr Demjanjuk for being a different guard. Not based on new evidence proving he was a different gaurd, but rather based on the fact that then now knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn't Ivan the terrible.

The Israeli supreme court said, bogus. You can't not convict a man of bing Ivan the Terrible, and then without any new evidence other than the fact that you now know he's not Ivan, convict him of being somebody else. That's why they are not trying to extradite him to Israel. Israel doesn't want him. Israel has washed their hands of him.

The folks who hound Mr. Demjanjuk want to send him to a new country where they haven't tried him yet so they can get another bite at the apple. Frankly however the Israeli supreme court got it right. If this evidence was beyond a shaddow of a doubt, you would have used it in the first place to convict him. The fact the prosecutors found other evidence more convincing evidnece since proven to be wrong; negates any evidence previously in their possession which the prosecution themselves dismissed and are only now using because they have no choice.

[JMS]

From Christian Science Monitor.....

John Demjanjuk's deportation stayed by federal court

The retired auto worker, 89, who is accused of being a Nazi death camp guard during World War II, was taken from his suburban Cleveland home today by federal agents. Then the court intervened.

By Michael Muskal

1:34 PM PDT, April 14, 2009

John Demjanjuk, the 89-year-old Ohio man accused of being a former guard in a Nazi death camp, was removed from his home today and taken into federal custody before a federal appeals court delayed his deportation to Germany.

Demjanjuk was taken from his suburban Cleveland house in a wheelchair, according to video from the scene. Relatives and medical personnel surrounded him as he was placed in a white van by federal agents. Then he was driven through the Cleveland streets to a federal facility to await being placed on an airplane to Germany, where he would have faced charges in connection with the deaths of 29,000 people in a Nazi death camp in Poland during World War II.

Before he could be deported, though, the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted a stay in the deportation order, the latest step in the case that has roiled the Jewish community for decades.

His family has argued that he was too old and frail to be deported and has maintained that he was not a Nazi guard. But critics have rejected those claims.

"We are delighted to hear" that Demjanjuk will deported, Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, said before the stay was issued.

"Every day they [prison guards] helped murder innocent civilians and cut off their possibility of life," Hier said. "For 50 years in the U.S. he lived in virtual freedom. He showed no compassion, no human feelings. I wish he would have let his victims live to 89 years of age. We are absolutely elated that justice has finally caught up with him."

Demjanjuk, a retired auto worker, has repeatedly denied that he was a prison guard, despite accusations that he was known as "Ivan the terrible" in Treblinka during World War II. An Israeli court convicted him in 1988 of war crimes, but that conviction was overturned by the Israeli Supreme Court.

In 2002, his U.S. citizenship was revoked by a U.S. court on the grounds that he had lied to immigration officials. The Justice Department maintained that Demjanjuk had hid his service at Sobibor and other Nazi-run death and forced-labor camps. An immigration judge ruled in 2005 he could be deported to Germany, Poland or Ukraine.

The family had sought a stay at the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals after previous appeals to stay had been rejected.

[JMS]

My next question is, how much time did he serve in an Israeli Jail For Convicted Nazi War Criminals?

He was in Israel for several years on death row. He was convicted of being Ivan the Terrible and sentenced to death. He was aquited upon appeal when irrefutable evididence surfaced in Russia that He was in fact not Ivan the Terrible. John Demjanjuk was then retried and sentenced to death for being a different guard. Finally this second death sentence was overturned in Israel's supreme court which found that by definition the evidence brought against Mr Demjanjuk for being this second guard was in doubt. They found this because the prosecution themselves dismissed this evidence when they tried and convicted him of being Ivan.

Mr. Demjanjuk is not German. Israel doesn't want him they dismissed the cases against him. The only reason they are sending him to Germany is because by crossing state boundries double jeprody does not apply and they get another bite at the apple. It's horrendace.

[JMS]

And the card (based on the little I've read, just this thread) says he was Ivan the Terrible. Which even the prosecution now says is not true.

(I suspect that part of my problem is that I have trouble believing that it's possible to be certain about much of anything, after all this time. And I'll confess to really wishing that the whole thing were over. But I can certainly understand why some people think we shouldn't just quit, either.)

Ivan the terribles ID card which surfaced in Russia was taken off the real Ivan the Terrible who was captured tried and died in Russia. They have pictures of Ivan in WWII, ( who looks alot like John Demjanjuk) and pictures of the guy the Soviets captured who actually was Ivan....

The evidence proving Mr. Demjanjuk was this other man, was all known before prosecution convicted him of being Ivan. Which is why Isreal released him.

[Larry]

Possible question that maybe, if Predicto answers, then I'll believe his answer:

Anybody ever argued, in court, that the US Constitution forbids extraditing someone twice for the same crime?

[Predicto]

Possible question that maybe, if Predicto answers, then I'll believe his answer:

Anybody ever argued, in court, that the US Constitution forbids extraditing someone twice for the same crime?

Hmm. I'm sure someone has tried to argue it but I don't think it flies. Deportation is not really a criminal matter. It is civil and administrative, and double jeopardy does not apply. Deportation is not a punishment per se, it is an adjudication of whether you are eligible to be here.

"The Double Jeopardy Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that no one shall "be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb." Like the ex post facto clause, this clause applies only to criminal or punitive measures successively imposed for the same criminal offense. See, e.g., Breed v. Jones, 421 U.S. 519, 528, 95 S.Ct. 1779, 1785, 44 L.Ed.2d 346 (1975) ("the risk to which the Clause refers is not present in proceedings that are not 'essentially criminal' "). Because deportation proceedings are civil and not criminal in nature, they cannot form the basis for a double jeopardy claim either."

(US v. YACOUBIAN (9th Cir. 1994) 24 F.3d 1)

[PokerPacker]

Hmm. I'm sure someone has tried to argue it but I don't think it flies. Deportation is not really a criminal matter. It is civil and administrative, and double jeopardy does not apply. Deportation is not a punishment per se, it is an adjudication of whether you are eligible to be here.

"The Double Jeopardy Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that no one shall "be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb." Like the ex post facto clause, this clause applies only to criminal or punitive measures successively imposed for the same criminal offense. See, e.g., Breed v. Jones, 421 U.S. 519, 528, 95 S.Ct. 1779, 1785, 44 L.Ed.2d 346 (1975) ("the risk to which the Clause refers is not present in proceedings that are not 'essentially criminal' "). Because deportation proceedings are civil and not criminal in nature, they cannot form the basis for a double jeopardy claim either."

(US v. YACOUBIAN (9th Cir. 1994) 24 F.3d 1)

could one argue that in being deported his life is indeed being put in jeopardy?

[Predicto]

could one argue that in being deported his life is indeed being put in jeopardy?

Yes, but then it would be an appeal for asylum, not a double jeopardy claim.

[AAARedskin]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

[Madison Redskin]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

Oh Lord. I have so many problems with this post. Ahhhemm, let me begin:

(1) You all but explicitly state that, even if he was a Nazi concentration camp guard who participated in the murder of prisoners, we should let bygones be bygones.

(2) You say that, in war, you follow orders. Sorry, but if my superior officer gives me orders to slaughter innocents, I'm going AWOL. Apparently, you would have done your duty and lack any semblance of a conscience.

(3) You contrast him with illegal immigrants, who you label scumbags. So, let me get your twisted logic straight. Even if this guy is a former concentration camp Nazi guard, he's the man you pray dies a free man, but it is the illegal immigrants who are the true scumbags.

:doh::doh::doh::doh:

[Predicto]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

I see. If he is a former member of the Nazi SS who originally lied to get into the US, that doesn't matter to you?

I assume that you feel that way about any Mexicans who come here illegally, as long as they live an honest and decent life and don't become criminals. Same reasoning, right?

Pssst - got a tip for you. Whatever Demjanjuk's background, he came to the US to "take advantage of the system" in EXACTLY the same way as the "scum-bag illegals from Mexico" do. No more, no less.

By the way, your 25% figure is total bull :pooh: Immigrants actually are incarcerated at a LOWER rate than regular American citizens, and illegal immigrant Mexicans make up less than one percent of the prison population. Less than ONE percent.

http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Rumbault_Ewing/index1.html

[DjTj]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

Demjanjuk is an illegal immigrant. When he came to the United States after World War II, he lied to immigration authorities about his Nazi background, and he thus broke the law.

In 2002, a federal court stripped Demanjuk of his citizenship.

In this latest attempt to take away Demjanjuk's citizenship and have him deported, U.S. District Judge Paul Matia ruled the government successfully made its case that Demjanjuk entered the U.S. illegally after World War II, and must leave.

"Although the defendant claims he was not at the camps indicated by the documentary evidence, he has not given the court any credible evidence of where he was during most of World War II," said Matia.

"The government had the burden of proving its contention to the court by clear, convincing and unequivocal evidence. It did so."

Demjanjuk was given 10 days to surrender his passport and other government documents. It's not clear whether any appeal would delay that deadline. Demjanjuk is free at the moment and is expected to appeal the decision.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/02/21/demjanjuk.citizenship/index.html

He appealed and lost in 2004. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3674913.stm

He broke the law when he entered the United States. If you believe in upholding the immigration laws, then it shouldn't matter that he has led a good and honest life the United States. The government has determined that he is an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. Don't you think that illegal immigrants should be deported?

[Predicto]

He broke the law when he entered the United States. If you believe in upholding the immigration laws, then it shouldn't matter that he has led a good and honest life the United States. The government has determined that he is an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. Don't you think that illegal immigrants should be deported?

Only some of them. You know... those kind.