AP: Demjanjuk to appeal ruling allowing deportation

[velocet]

Here are a couple of general (i.e. historical, not addressing this case specifically) background links

Ukrainian S.S.

Ukrainian guards

I did a quick search as a refresher because a long time ago I'd read something about the Ukrainian S.S. (and the French, Belgian etc versions). All I remember reading was where and when those formations saw combat action, but nothing about a role in the holocaust. Yet also I'd seen references in holocaust literature about Ukrainian guards at camps. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that Demjanjuk was Ukrainian S.S.

(I initially looked up those other nationality SS because I'd heard a reference to one of them and was wondering if it was true. My lukewarm skepticism on that count was based on what I knew of the Nazi German S.S.: all about Germany, Hitler's personal army etc. It just didn't compute that the special army created specifically to enforce German superiority would have foreign branches. Go figure.)

velocet

[Bang]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

Unreal.

Your existence is insulting.

~Bang

[Larry]

Hmm. I'm sure someone has tried to argue it but I don't think it flies. Deportation is not really a criminal matter. It is civil and administrative, and double jeopardy does not apply. Deportation is not a punishment per se, it is an adjudication of whether you are eligible to be here.

"The Double Jeopardy Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that no one shall "be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb." Like the ex post facto clause, this clause applies only to criminal or punitive measures successively imposed for the same criminal offense. See, e.g., Breed v. Jones, 421 U.S. 519, 528, 95 S.Ct. 1779, 1785, 44 L.Ed.2d 346 (1975) ("the risk to which the Clause refers is not present in proceedings that are not 'essentially criminal' "). Because deportation proceedings are civil and not criminal in nature, they cannot form the basis for a double jeopardy claim either."

(US v. YACOUBIAN (9th Cir. 1994) 24 F.3d 1)

Course, I think I have a more "liberal" view of double jeopardy, too.

I have a problem with deciding, in the case of OJ, that "well, we tried him for murder, and we lost, so let's drag him down the hallway and into a different courtroom, and try him again, and claim that it's different, this time, becaiuse well, we're in a different room in the courthouse."

To me, either OJ murdered his wife, or he didn't. I have a moral problem with this attitude that we can try somebody twice, as long as it's done in different courtrooms. (Criminal/civil. County/federal. Whatever.)

I can understand an argument that "Well, Action A didn't violate Law 1, but it might have violated Law 2." But to pick OJ as an example, a jury has already ruled that he didn't perform Action A.

[SkinInsite]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

Ja wohl, mein Führer

[DjTj]

Update: The Nazi illegal immigrant was granted a stay of deportation:

A federal court on Tuesday delayed the deportation of alleged Nazi guard John Demjanjuk, shortly after the 89-year-old Ohio man had been removed from his home by Immigration agents.

Demjanjuk was taken from his suburban Cleveland house in a wheelchair. Relatives and medical personnel surrounded him as he was placed in a white van by federal agents.

Then he was driven to a federal facility to await an airplane to Germany, where he would have faced charges in connection with the deaths of 29,000 people in a Nazi-run death camp in occupied Poland during World War II.

But the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati granted a stay of the deportation order, the latest development in a case that has stretched for decades.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-nazi_15apr15,0,7048171.story

[JMS]

This is a very controversial case. I feel that it is pathetic that this 89 year old man who worked and led a decent and honest life in America since the 1950's has been hounded and villified by all the "do-gooders" involved in this case. Hey, if he had been involved in anti-American and pro-Nazi activities since entering the United States I would probably feel differently. We are not talking about a serial killer who roamed Europe.....there was a WAR going on, and in war-time, you take orders and carry out those orders. The man came to America after the war and he led an honest and decent life. Unlike all the scum-bag illegals from Mexico that make up approx. 25% of the American prison population, he DID NOT COME TO AMERICA TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE SYSTEM and he didn't become a criminal. I would personally be embarrassed to be involved in "taking down" an 89 year old man in this kind of scenario. That's right....shame on the State Dept. in this case, and shame on the joke that is our legal system. I say let God judge him after he has died of natural causes as a FREE MAN.

I would go further than that. I would say if there was persuasive evidence that he was in fact ever a Nazi, much less in the SS; then I wouldn't even be ****ing about it.

Problem is when the Nazi charge was first leveled at him back in the 80's. He was tried and convicted both in the United States and later in Israel. Over his objections they had overwhelming evidence and convicted him of being Ivan the terrible.

Now with zero new evidence, other than the fact that they now know he's not Ivan; now they want to charge him for being a different Nazi. Israel's supreme court washed their hands of it. They, to their credit after lower ISraeli courts convicted Demjanjuk of being the wrong guy and sentencing him to death, want no further part of this fiasco.

So what we are left with is the ultimate in irranies. An American, who as an Ukranian in WWII, has documents showing he fought against the Nazi's; is being deported to Germany to stand trial for being a Nazi and attrocities against humanity.

[JMS]

(1) You all but explicitly state that, even if he was a Nazi concentration camp guard who participated in the murder of prisoners, we should let bygones be bygones.

Fact is the evidence showing he was this other guard, not Ivan the Terrible was known before he was charged and convicted of being Ivan the terrible. The only new evidence is they now know he's not Ivan, so now they are proclaiming him to be this other guy.

Fact is they suspect he was in the SS, and they suspect he was a camp guard, but they have no good evidence of who he was, or what he did.

Furthermore they want to move him to germany for the sole purpose of getting around the intent of American law. American law says he can't be tried twice for the same crime... That's what Israel's law says too. That's why they have to move him to Germany; cause they haven't tried him there before.. It's redicoulous.

(2) You say that, in war, you follow orders. Sorry, but if my superior officer gives me orders to slaughter innocents, I'm going AWOL. Apparently, you would have done your duty and lack any semblance of a conscience.

John Demjanjuk is being charged with 60,000 murders in Germany. It's an outragous number considering they can't link him to anything directly.

(3) Even if this guy is a former concentration camp Nazi guard, he's the man you pray dies a free man,

:doh::doh::doh::doh:

Fact is if they had an iota of new or even convincing evidence suggesting he was a Nazi, a death camp guard, or contributed to autrocities; they would be extradating him to Israel, not Germany. When was the last time you heard of the US extraditing a NAZI to Germany to stand trial rather than Israel? Hasn't happenned in the last 50 years. There is a reason for that.

[JMS]

Course, I think I have a more "liberal" view of double jeopardy, too.

I have a problem with deciding, in the case of OJ, that "well, we tried him for murder, and we lost, so let's drag him down the hallway and into a different courtroom, and try him again, and claim that it's different, this time, becaiuse well, we're in a different room in the courthouse."

Here is the difference Larry. OJ was found innocent, so you can claim the stupid jurry got it wrong. John Demjanjuk was found guilty. The prosecution looked at all the evidenec they had, and decided their strongest case was that John Demjanjuk was Ivan the terrible; they tried him, and convicted him of that crime. The jury found him guilty and the judge sentenced him to death...

Then the only new evidence brought into the case from the fallen soviet union proved beyond a shaddow of a doubt that Mr. Demjanjuk was not Ivan the terrible.

How can the prosecution; any prosecution then proclaim the evidence which they dismissed now proves beyond a shaddow of doubt that this man is a different prison guard.

The Israeli lower courts made that claim and retried and reconvicted him of being a different guy, then resentenced him to death. The Israeli supreme court stepped in and called foul.

That's why Israel released John Demjanjuk, cause they decided the evidence against him was by definition not convincing. The only reason the folks who are currently hounding him want him to go to Germany is because double jeprody doesn't apply, The same folks who for a decade claimed in error that John Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible.

[Madison Redskin]

ISo what we are left with is the ultimate in irranies.

What the hell are "irranies?" Also, I wish I was as good of a lawyer as you seem to think you are.

[JMS]

I see. If he is a former member of the Nazi SS who originally lied to get into the US, that doesn't matter to you?

There is no untainted evidence that he was a Nazi Guard or in the SS. Mr. Demjanjuk has consistantly denied these charges for two decades. Mr. Demjanjuk has a scar on his arm which his tormentors claim could have been an SS tato, but that's it.

They don't have to prove he was an SS member or a Prison guard to deport him, all they have to do is find an inconsistency on his immigration application in order to strip him of his citizenship and deport him to a country which will prosecute him.

John Demjanjuk was a Ukranian soldier who fought against the Nazi's. He was captured when the Ukrain fell. He says he remained a prisoner of the Nazi's until the end of the war. His prosecutors claim he joined the SS as some Ukranians did. They don't have to prove that though, if they can prove he even worked in a labor camp they can deport him for being untruthful on his visa application.

[JMS]

What the hell are "irranies?"

Sorry spelling is one of my proclivities.

ironies - incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result

Also, I wish I was as good of a lawyer as you seem to think you are.

In order to understand what is going on you don't need to be a lawyer. You just have to be able to read a newspaper, have either a historical perspective or a curious mind, and strive for an open honest interpretation of events.

I would not be so discusted with this case if I thought Mr. Demjanjuk was actually guilty of any crime. Fact is the two decades of pursecution of Mr. Demjanjuk have consistantly relied more on sensationalism than evidence and that is my complaint. Motivated well financed people don't seem to need evidence in order to hound an old man into his grave.

[Madison Redskin]

How is all of the evidence "tainted?"

PS - I love that ES is filled with so many amateur lawyers who got their JDs from yahoo.com. I am thinking about becoming an OB-GYN as soon as I get my MD from WebMD.

[JMS]

How is all of the evidence "tainted?"

The only new evidence brought into this case since John Demjanjuk was convicted of being Ivan the terrible back in the late 1980's was made public in in the mid 1990's. That evidence proved that the man convicted of being Ivan the Terrible could not be Ivan the Terrible. The real Ivan the terrible died sampling Joseph Stalin's hospitality after WWII. The evidence proving the soviets had the actual Ivan the Terrible is what got John Demjanjuk off of death row in Israel the first time. What sprung John Demjanjuk from Israel's death row the second time was the argument that the same evidence dismissed by prosecution in order to prove he was Ivan the Terrible, can not by definition be convincing now knowing the only new evidence in the case is he's not the guy you originally thought he was.

You can add to that the fact that the United States Undersecretary of State resigned over the handling of the John Demjanjuk case. You see the United States knew he wasn't Ivan the Terrible when they extradited him to Israel the first time, and was ordered to sit on the evidense. The same evidence which eventually exempted him.

PS - I love that ES is filled with so many amateur lawyers who got their JDs from yahoo.com. I am thinking about becoming an OB-GYN as soon as I get my MD from WebMD.

It's really not that hard an argument to understand. All you need to be is literate and unbiased. You don't even need to know how to spell that well.

[JMS]

Feds release accused Nazi prison guard Demjanjuk

CLEVELAND – John Demjanjuk was released from federal custody Tuesday evening, just hours after six immigration officers removed the accused Nazi death camp guard from his suburban home in a wheelchair, authorities said. Federal officials had taken Demjanjuk to a federal building in downtown Cleveland, but the 89-year-old retired autoworker's impending return to Germany was halted when three-judge panel of the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals granted a stay of deportation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090414/ap_on_re_us/demjanjuk

[JMS]

Statement Issued by the Israeli Supreme Court after their Unanoumous ruling to release John Demjanjuk in 1995 after 18 years of trying to bring him to trial both in the United States and in Israel.

The Demjanjuk Decision

Statement by the Minister of Justice

Professor David Liba'i

Jerusalem, July 29, 1993

Minister of Justice David Liba'i said today that the Supreme Court has proven that Jewish judges in Jerusalem are capable of reaching a fair verdict, even in the case of a defendant who was indicted and convicted of crimes against the Jewish people.

Minister Liba'i commended Prosecutor Michael Shaked who, with fairness and thoroughness, supplied the Court with new evidence from Germany and the CIS, although he knew that some of it was not supportive of the prosecution's case.

The Minister added that the statute of limitations does not apply to crimes of Nazis and their collaborators. Therefore, the Ministry of Justice will continue to review any suspicion of crimes against humanity and the Jewish people. The Attorney General and the State Attorney have informed the Minister that, having reviewed the Court's decision, they regard the Demjanjuk case as closed for the reasons rendered unanimously by the Justices in their decision. Minister Liba'i strongly condemns threats voiced against the Justices of the Supreme Court and warned that respect for judges and acceptance of their judgments are vital to the rule of law. Criticism of the judgment is legitimate, but it must be stressed that the Justices fear nothing but the law.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/d/demjanjuk-john/israeli-data/demjanjuk-s3.html

If there was new evidence, Israel would prosecute him.

[DjTj]

The question of whether he was a Nazi seems to be something for the German courts to decide. The US Constitution doesn't protect him from being accused of crimes in other countries. If the evidence is flimsy, he should go to Germany and win his case.

The only issue before the US courts is whether he lied when he entered the country. They found that he did, so they stripped his citizenship. That part of it seems pretty solid from a legal standpoint, although he might get another appeal now ... As you said, the question really isn't whether he is a Nazi; it's whether he lied, and once we determine the answer is yes, then the rest is really in Germany's hands.

[JMS]

NOV. 14-20: Recriminations in the U.S.; In the Demjanjuk Case, Bitterness Begets Bitterness

By STEPHEN LABATON

Published: Sunday, November 21, 1993

John Demjanjuk has been saying for years that the special unit of Nazi hunters at the (United States) Justice Department improperly withheld critical evidence that would help him refute charges that he was one of the most brutal figures of the Holocaust.

Last week a Federal appeals panel in Cincinnati said he was right. In a rare and embarrassing rebuke, the three judges said the prosecutors had fraudulently withheld evidence that could have helped to disprove accusations of Holocaust survivors who said he was "Ivan the Terrible," the sadistic Treblinka guard who tortured his prisoners before operating the gas chambers in which they perished.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/21/weekinreview/nov-14-20-recriminations-us-demjanjuk-case-bitterness-begets-bitterness.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Organizations/J/Justice%20Department

Supreme Court Supports Sixth Circuit Judgment

From the New York Times

October 3, 1994

Excerpts from an article which appeared in the New York Times, datelined October 3, 1994. Written by Stephen Labaton, it appeared on page A18:

WASHINGTON, Oct. 3 -- The Supreme Court today struck what could be a fatal blow to the Government's ... 17-year effort to banish John Demjanjuk, the World War II figure whom the Justice Department once described as one of the most barbaric Nazi figures of the Holocaust.

Without comment, the Court refused to review a Federal appeals decision that had found that Justice Department lawyers had mishandled the case and fraudulently deceived both the courts and the defense team when they accused Mr. Demjanjuk of being the notorious Ivan the Terrible, a sadistic gas chamber operator at the Treblinka death camp in Poland.

Mr. Demjanjuk's family immediately hailed the decision and said it should enable Mr. Demjanjuk, a 74-year-old retired auto worker who lives in a suburb of Cleveland, to remain permanently in the United States.

"Today's decision makes it absolutely clear that the Department of Justice defrauded the U.S. courts, deceived the American people and destroyed Mr. Demjanjuk's good name," said his son-in-law, Edward Nishnic....

Since Mr. Demjanjuk returned a year ago from death row in Israel to his home here, prosecutors have struggled to find a way to revive what is widely considered the most bungled war-crimes case ever brought by the Justice Department's Nazi-hunting unit....

The Justice Department has been frustrated about the case, as evidence has mounted suggesting that some officials had doubts about the case and that the prosecutors failed to provide Mr. Demjanjuk and his lawyers with significant information that could have helped his defense. None of the main prosecutors who have been criticized by the appeals court remain at the department, leaving the current team of prosecutors with a messy record. The prosecutors have lost four times in the Federal courts and have been excoriated by an appeals panel who found that Mr. Demjanjuk was extradited as a result of prosecutorial misconduct. And during the Supreme Court appeal, new evidence emerged to further suggest that prosecutors had purposely failed to tell Mr. Demjanjuk about their private doubts about important aspects of the case.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/d/demjanjuk-john/press/new-york-times-100494.html

[JMS]

The question of whether he was a Nazi seems to be something for the German courts to decide. The US Constitution doesn't protect him from being accused of crimes in other countries. If the evidence is flimsy, he should go to Germany and win his case.

Problem is that's a today decision. Problem is two decades ago it was an Israeli decision. Problem is the folks pursecuting Mr. Demjanjuk didn't like the Israeli's findings. Israel known to be lax on prosecuting Nazi's.

Remember Demjanjuk isn't a German, nor has he ever been a German, He's Ukranian. Ah, but Ukrain looked at the evidence and won't prosecute him and Israel won't prosecute him again, without new untainted evidence. Now, they want to to deport Mr. Demjanjuk to Germany. If Mr Demjanjuk would survive I'm sure they'll have another country lined up to try him in 2020.

The dude is 89 years old and will never survive a trial in Germany. That's a given. It's been thirty years since these bozo's with unlimited resources first started hounding this old man. They've twice convicted him and sentenced him to death, and twice been proven to be wrong. When's enough enough? I'll tell you when, when all your evidence has been heard and refuted in a court. That's when. you don't get to pick a new court every decade until your victem dies.

They can't prove in US courts that he's ever been a Nazi. They don't have too. All they have to prove in US courts is he worked for the Nazi's and didn't state so on his immigration form.

That strips this old man from any protection under US Law. Fact is as any Ikranian will tell you just about every Ukranian male from the ages of 13-60 worked in someway for the Germans whether they wanted to or not. Germany was desparate for manpower and Ukrain was a defeated power totally under German control.

Let me ask you this? How long do you think you would last if an organization, proven to be unscupulous and with unlimited rousources decided they wanted you dead? How long do you think anybody would last under those cercumstances?

The only issue before the US courts is whether he lied when he entered the country. They found that he did, so they stripped his citizenship. That part of it seems pretty solid from a legal standpoint, although he might get another appeal now ... As you said, the question really isn't whether he is a Nazi; it's whether he lied, and once we determine the answer is yes, then the rest is really in Germany's hands.

That's true. Demjanjuk a Ukranian soldier fighting against the Nazi's claimed that after he was captured by the Nazi's he remained under Nazi detention until the end of the war. Those that stripped him of his citizenship ( the second time) proved he had worked in a German labor camp where he also was bunkered, and disputed whether he was a prisoner, or free to leave... That newaunce is what denied him a hearing here in the US..... Of course the first time they stripped him of his citizenship was appealed and reversed after more than a decade.

Although the 6th circuit court in Cinncinatti now it seems is going to rehear his case. The same court which in the 1990's found the justicie department had acted illigally and fraugelently in deporting him the first time.