Pro - Jason Campbell won't ever get it done in Washington

[CHUBAKAH]

What did I miss? I didn't talk about Cutler in that reply which you didn't want anyway. I was replying to your part about me not understand what you meant by "getting it done". Why should I include your whole post in the quote if I was only answering one part of it?

Where did I talk about turnovers which your entire reply is based on? I said play 60 minutes of football.

[MattFancy]

Where did I talk about turnovers which your entire reply is based on? I said play 60 minutes of football.

You said 60 minutes of error free football. To me, turovers are errors, are they not?

http://www.extremeskins.com/showpost.php?p=6278910&postcount=43

[jrockster21]

This is about Jason Campbell, and whether or not you think he can get it done.

For the one person that did not understand what that means, it means play 60 minutes of football close to error free.

I would argue that "getting it done" is winning. Error-free or not. Look at Brett Fahv-ra; he rarely plays 60 minutes of error-free football, but he still wins (throughout the majority of his career, recent seasons excluded). In fact, I believe he leads the NFL all-time in interceptions thrown.

And yes, I think Campbell can be a winning QB in the NFL. I mean Christ, we started the season out 6-2 last year, and he was playing well. Second half wasn't so great, but who's to say we can't play the entire season the way we started last year's?

[CHUBAKAH]

That is only a TINY piece of error free football.

1. Holding the ball too long is making an error.

2. Reading the defense improperly.

3. Getting the team to the line in time.

4. Getting the ball to the right player down field instead of forcing the ball in to double coverage.

Do I need to go on?

Think out side the box a little.

[jrockster21]

That is only a TINY piece of error free football.

1. Holding the ball too long is making an error.

2. Reading the defense improperly.

3. Getting the team to the line in time.

4. Getting the ball to the right player down field instead of forcing the ball in to double coverage.

Do I need to go on?

Think out side the box a little.

Granted Fahv-ra is a special player, but he does all of those things and still has 4 MVPs and a superbowl trophy.

[MattFancy]

That is only a TINY piece of error free football.

1. Holding the ball too long is making an error.

2. Reading the defense improperly.

3. Getting the team to the line in time.

4. Getting the ball to the right player down field instead of forcing the ball in to double coverage.

Do I need to go on?

Think out side the box a little.

so what are we arguing about here? now i'm confused. i'm arguing that he hasn't gotten it done and i think you are too.

[CHUBAKAH]

And yes, I think Campbell can be a winning QB in the NFL. I mean Christ, we started the season out 6-2 last year, and he was playing well. Second half wasn't so great, but who's to say we can't play the entire season the way we started last year's?

It took 8 games for the rest of the NFL to figure out what Zorn was going to do. The claims were that he was going play WC offensive schemes. Truth is we came out running. Of those 6 how many did we dominate in?

After those games were done, so were the Skins.

I say we can't do it again. If we come out with Jason as the starter next year, and we don't change at QB we will go no better than 8-8.

[jrockster21]

It took 8 games for the rest of the NFL to figure out what Zorn was going to do. The claims were that he was going play WC offensive schemes. Truth is we came out running. Of those 6 how many did we dominate in?

After those games were done, so were the Skins.

I say we can't do it again. If we come out with Jason as the starter next year, and we don't change at QB we will go no better than 8-8.

I dunno...as someone who went to several games last year, I saw WRs streaking down field wide-open, and a hesitant Campbell not making the throws he needed too. In several games he made these throws, i.e. the Detroit game and the Saints game, but in a lot of them he did not make them.

The difference this year will be whether or not Campbell is hesitant. If he fires the ball quickly to a spot, trusting his WRs to get there, we will succeed. If he continues to be hesitant and hold the ball a second too long, we will be losers again.

I will say - this is an advantage to having Cutler. However will he learn the system fast enough? And will losing 2 first round picks cripple this franchise for years to come? I believe the answers to those two questions are no and a resounding yes, meaning this is a horrible move.

[littleskins]

I think you have hit the nail on the head. JC definitly need to trust his recievers more and himself. If not this is his last chance. The Cutler deal would be bad for this team.

[Ghost of]

And Campbell has only had 2 full years as the starter (not even, because he got injured in 07). Brees and Campbell's careers are quite similar.

There is a difference between a guy with the proper mental and physical tools taking time to get it and someone who is STILL needing basic work on his mechanics and will never have a quick release.

To me, that's what one of the main issues. It's why I was more positive to Ramsey (who DID improve his short game to the point he was ranked #1 in that area by the end of 2004.) Campbell has a handicap out there and even if he DID 'get it' it still wouldn't change his sun dial release.

He gets more balls batted at the line than Colt ever would because def linemen can time their jumps.

[Emoshag]

You have mi amigo.

Like you, I wanted JC in because Brunell was done physically.

Unlike you, I would like to Colt get a shot just to actually see what he has/can do against a few first string defenses. Sidearm or not, I've liked what little I saw of him in preseason last year. He made drives & scored TDs.

BUT I like what Cutler brings to the table. He's like a proven version of what Colt's potential could be. I think that's the best way I can describe it.

I seriously love you. You always make relevant points and are even keel. I just wish you commented more on what I say when I get on the JC17 vs. CB5 conversations!

[HOF44]

I seriously love you.

TK will be giving out autographs at the ES Tailgate on Draft Day see Mark the Homer to reserve an autograph ticket if you are attending.

[georgiaredskin]

I but I do still believe he could "succeed" here in the same way that a Rypien did. I very distinctly recall a lot of the same comments made about MR way back when, that he would never "get" it, he didn't have "it", yadda yadda yadda.....

Campbell has some genuine strengths as our QB and given the opportunity to utilize them he could be solid for quite a while.

Your entire post spoken for truth. I see a Rocky story coming out of this. Jason has a fighter mentality as well; he doesn't give up. No matter how bad we were losing to the Giants, the Steelers, to anyone, the whole team seemed to wilt at times, except for Jason. His heart drives him, and if you haven't watched the Olympics or seen NCAAs or watched Eli fight "the mighty Patriots", when you add faith and hard work to the mix, along with a little destiny, anything is possible.

I don't read all of these hater negative posts. It's nice that you guys believe in this outsider Cutler or young boy Colt. But unlike the last 15 years, I believe in someone Joe Gibbs picked, a talented true Redskin fight-to-the-death-work-harder-in-the offseason-with Santana Moss-when-everyone-else-is-partying-always humble-true-leader-who stays-positive-at-ALL-times-when you are the 6-0, interception-less-record-holding, season-starting-hero of the NFL AND even when you are condemned by your own fans and home message boards as much as you are by your NFC-East foes.

This year, Jason's recipe is coming together, and I can't wait to see it happen.

[DieHardSkins88]

Sure, the O line was in shambles last season, and the WR's didn't give him much help either, but do you think Jason even has the tools to be a HOF QB in this league?

:evilg:<-advocate

I dont give a **** if he is a hall of fame quarterback or not, as al davis would say; just win baby! Also, if i'm not mistaken the redskins only have 1 hall of fame quarterback which is sammy baugh, maybe sonny but i dont think so. Are you saying that the only way to please your quarterback situation is to get someone who will go to the hall of fame? If that's the case, get ready to die un satisfied with the skins quarterback

[DieHardSkins88]

your entire post spoken for truth. I see a rocky story coming out of this. Jason has a fighter mentality as well; he doesn't give up. No matter how bad we were losing to the giants, the steelers, to anyone, the whole team seemed to wilt at times, except for jason. His heart drives him, and if you haven't watched the olympics or seen ncaas or watched eli fight "the mighty patriots", when you add faith and hard work to the mix, along with a little destiny, anything is possible.

I don't read all of these hater negative posts. It's nice that you guys believe in this outsider cutler or young boy colt. But unlike the last 15 years, i believe in someone joe gibbs picked, a talented true redskin fight-to-the-death-work-harder-in-the offseason-with santana moss-when-everyone-else-is-partying-always humble-true-leader-who stays-positive-at-all-times-when you are the 6-0, interception-less-record-holding, season-starting-hero of the nfl and even when you are condemned by your own fans and home message boards as much as you are by your nfc-east foes.

This year, jason's recipe is coming together, and i can't wait to see it happen.

amen brother!

[illone]

You have merit to think Colt is not the answer because he hasn't done squadoosh in the NFL, but you could equally believe he IS the answer because he hasn't shown squadoosh.

Me personally I think he has the "it" factor that Campbell lacks. So while I'd rather have Cutler than both of them I'm glad the Skins have a somewhat backup plan in CB#5.

[DCsportsfan53]

I will admit, the offseason Skins fan in me said "hell yeah, demote Zorn, get Shanny, give whatever for Cutler....SUPER BOWL BABY!!!!!" for a few minutes there. Honestly, I do think he's a better QB than JC but I also get the impression he's not nearly as down to earth or hard working at his craft. All in all, probably better it didn't happen.

As far as Campbell, that ties back into my sudden fan reaction. A lot of the way I was so ready to embrace that attitude for a minute is because I have serious doubts about JC. Doesn't make reads quick enough, doesn't put the ball in spots where guys can do much with it, throws a terribly uncatchable deep ball despite the big arm (seriously, even 487 year old limp noodle armed Brunell knew if Moss is one on one just throw it high, short and outside on the fly route and let him do his thing. That's his advantage, I've yet to see JC attempt that throw), seems to need guys to be WIDE open to pull the trigger, ect. Serious doubts for sure but at the same time I remember what I told everyone who asked me when Zorn was hired. "JC's been through so many systems, Zorn's a new coach. Playoffs would be a welcome surprise this year (08) and we won't see what JC and Zorn can do together until about halfway through their second season together".

Despite what daydreams of franchise QBs and future HOF coaches, or frustrating losses may do to clutter it, I still think I was right. You really can't understate being able to grow in one offense and these two need more than one season together to see if it can work. I just hope all the change simply delayed Campbell's growth rather than retarding it to the point where his potential can't be realized. Good thread Chewy.

[PROSCOUT]

All i'm saying is if JC can manage a game and get us to the promise land, like a dilfer type "lead team", then I am for keeping him.

Reality is, I am more excited every hour about the possibility of Cutler coming to town. I just hope the price is not too steep.

In his first 37 games, Trent Dilfer threw 17 TD passes and 43 ints.

Jason in his first 32 games threw 36 TD passes and only 23 ints.

It is insulting to compare Jason Campbell to Trent Dilfer and shows your ignorance or lack of football knowledge. I would hold off posting for a couple of more years.

[InsaneBoost]

How you doing Chubakah, haven't seen you in awhile buddy!

As far as Jason, I'm really 50/50 on him. I think he's decent at times and at times he isn't a good QB. I believe he can successful in the NFL, however he needs a lot more work, perhaps another year or two, which I don't want to wait for. It seems to be crazy keeping a QB that can hold the team back a bit.

I'll make my final decision after this year. I thought he did well did the O line fell apart, so well see.

[Biggeesmoove]

Some things to consider:

Jay and Jason came into the league in the same year (2006). They each played a partial first season (Jay - 5 games, Jason - 7 games), and full second/third seasons (Jay - 16/16, Jason - 13/16).

Also, over that same three year period:

Jay's QB Ratings (88.5/88.1/86.0), and Jason's (123.4/77.6/84.3).

Jay's Completions/Completion Percentages (81/59.1, 297/63.6, and 384/62.3), and Jason's (110/53.1, 250/60.0, and 315/62.3).

Jay's TD/INT Ratios (9/5, 20/14, and 25/18), and Jason's (10/6, 12/11, and 13/6).

Jay's Rushing Attempts/Yards Gained/Average (12/18/1.5, 44/205/4.7, and 57/200/3.5), and Jason's (24/107/4.5, 36/185/5.1, and 47/258/5.5).

Jay's Fumbles Lost (8/11/5), and Jason's (1/13/6).

Denver's W/L Record (9-7, 7-9, and 8-8), and Washington's (5-11, 9-7, and 8-8).

I could go on ad nauseum with stats, but I think these numbers show that Jay and Jason are not that far apart as it regards personal statistics. Jay has more points, but also more interceptions and fumbles than Jason, while Jason is safer with the ball and is a better runner when plays break down. Their QB Ratings and completion Percentages are a wash.

But, the things I began to discover as I perused more stats were interesting:

Washington and Denver's defenses got nearly the same amount of sacks, but the Washington Offensive line gave up more than THREE TIMES AS MANY sacks (Cutler was sacked 11 times, Campbell 38) as Denver's O line did. Also, Denver's receivers caught 70 more completions, no doubt because their QBs (Cutler and Patrick Ramsey) weren't picking themselves up all the time. Denver's receivers also got more Receiving Yards than Washington receivers, while Washington's receivers had more dropped balls than Denver's did.

Call me a Campbell lover if you like but stats don't lie. I'll also admit that they don't tell the entire story, but in this instance, they make a compelling case against the Redskins' receivers and O line. And, I haven't even thrown in the fact that Jay has had the same offense for three years straight, while Jason has had three different ones.

Given the numbers and the situation surrounding Jason, I think he has earned a shot with a full compliment of decent receivers, and a stout O line. Had Jason had the benefit of the situation that Jay did, he might also be a Pro Bowl QB. Also, let's think about the flip-side of that coin - had Cutler played under the conditions that Campbell has endured for three seasons (with his penchant for fumbling and throwing INTs), none of you "Cutlerites" would be lauding his play right now - you'd all be asking for his head on a plate.

Just think - if Jason Campbell nearly attained the same proficiency level as Jay Cutler with an inferior O line, an inferior receiver corps and three different systems, just think what he could do if he had top-flight help and the same system for three years......

[88Comrade2000]

Actually, the question to ask is:

Does Jason have a long term future here? Even if Jason does enough to earn him a new contract; does he have a long term future here. Jason can have a good season but the team still fails to do anything and Zorn gets replaced.

[PassAttack]

I saw the thread pro Cutler, and an anti Cutler.

How about a thread about mixed feeling on that choice, however you feel Jason Campbell will never get it done in Washington?

I was a HUGE advocate of removing Brunell from the helm, and making Jason the starter. I mean what could it have hurt, he couldn't have been any worse right?

Two years later I'll say why he hasn't been any worse than Brunell was, it hasn't been much of an improvement. He still makes the same mistakes over and over again, and seems to constantly miss the open receiver from staring at covered guys. Holds the ball too long. Fumbles the ball a lot from hits, etc. etc...

Sure, the O line was in shambles last season, and the WR's didn't give him much help either, but do you think Jason even has the tools to be a HOF QB in this league?

I'm on the fence, but leaning towards change.

I also feel Colt is not the answer.

Thoughts?

No flaming allowed!

:evilg:<-advocate

You never know until you try, you'd be dammed if he ends up on another team only to light it up there. If you are on the fence right now, believing that Campbell is not the one, take a harder look at this pre-season at Colt, thats all he's got to prove himself. Then make your decision.

Campbell was and is the starting QB no matter what happens preseason. Unfortunately, I don't think Zorn is gonna make it pass the end of Campbells contract either. If Zorn makes Brennan 2nd string, it will be his last attempt to save his job in DC and a tell that he doesn't trust Campbell.

[Shilsu]

Some things to consider:

Jay and Jason came into the league in the same year (2006). They each played a partial first season (Jay - 5 games, Jason - 7 games), and full second/third seasons (Jay - 16/16, Jason - 13/16).

Wrong. Jason Campbell came into the league in 2005. Jason Campbell started in his sophomore year. Jay Cutler started in his rookie year.

Also, over that same three year period:

Jay's QB Ratings (88.5/88.1/86.0), and Jason's (123.4/77.6/84.3).

Wrong. Jason Campbell did not have a three digit QB rating in the first year he started.

But, the things I began to discover as I perused more stats were interesting:

Denver's receivers also got more Receiving Yards than Washington receivers, while Washington's receivers had more dropped balls than Denver's did.

Wrong. In 2008, at least, Brandon Marshall had more total drops and a higher percentage of drops than Santana Moss. The Denver Broncos ranked #5 in total drops. The Redskins were in a three-way tie for drops at #13.

Call me a Campbell lover if you like but stats don't lie.

The stats might not lie, but either you are lying about the stats or you're not very accurate.

[HogNose]

Of course I was hoping Campbell would become our franchise QB, but I now know it won't happen. Campbell will carve out a nice backup career, but will never be a starting QB again after he is done here in Washington.

He is missing something. I don't see the fire in his eyes while under center and he seems to have a great lack of confidence. I see a lot of Frerotte in Campbell.

I didn't follow Campbell while he was in college, but for those that did...is this the Campbell that was at Auburn?

It is insulting to compare Jason Campbell to Trent Dilfer and shows your ignorance or lack of football knowledge. I would hold off posting for a couple of more years.

but it's ok for you to compare Campbell to Montana? :doh:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=284468

[CHUBAKAH]

Are you saying that the only way to please your quarterback situation is to get someone who will go to the hall of fame?

Nope, don't believe I said that at all, however it would be nice to have a HOF QB for the first time I've been alive. IMHO Jason is far from even being a QB with staying power right now, and has a VERY long way to go before he can manage a game.

If you go back over any of my statements on the QB's here the last 5 years you will see that I have been spot on on each account.

Can I get an Amen up in here?

amen brother!

You have merit to think Colt is not the answer because he hasn't done squadoosh in the NFL, but you could equally believe he IS the answer because he hasn't shown squadoosh.

...and if he is a better QB, he will beat out JC for the job in training camp this season. Will he do that ya think?

I'm very doubtful.

How you doing Chubakah, haven't seen you in awhile buddy!

New house, baby, and two jobs will do that to you. Good to see you as well.