How much did Zorn's Training Camp Affect Us?

[Thinking Skins]

As everybody knows, we had the earliest starting date for training camps last offseason. And on top of that we played 5 preseason games instead of the regular 4.

The general consensus around here has been a blame game on

(1) the breakdown of the OL in the the second half.

(2) JC not being effective in the second half

(3) the WRs not getting open

(4) the defense wearing down late in some games

(5) CP not getting many long runs.

For weeks we've argued these things individually, trying to see which one is the "real" cause of the problems. But if we look at them together, I think we can see a consistant theme, that the second half of the season, we were not as good as we were in the first half. Could part of the problem have been that Zorn didn't do a good job getting the team ready for a long season?

Normally, I'd be thinking about this in terms of injuries. But our injuries weren't of the type that took players out of games. Many people (Portis, Jansen, Samuels, Kendall, etc) were playing through injuries, and maybe it showed more than it should have.

But I wonder if there is any correlation between other teams that had early training camps and a late season collapse. I know we played Indy in that first game of the season and they went on a late season run, but thats Indy! I wonder if Zorn has considered this, and how the training camp schedule will look for the 2009 season.

[The Caretaker]

It actually makes sense, when Gibbs was coach, we didn't have as rigorous of a training camp and we went on late season runs, last year it was the opposite, so perhaps a middle ground would be the best way forward.

[IbleedBnG83]

The problem the team had, aside from the OL, was that the offense was too basic and predictable. One would expect a new offense to take time before it really begins to click, but the team regressed. Thats where I find it most perplexing. The team how more time than other teams to prepare and get ready and learn the new offense. Yet they still regressed. If anything, it looks worse on Zorn IMO.

[IbleedBnG83]

As everybody knows, we had the earliest starting date for training camps last offseason. And on top of that we played 5 preseason games instead of the regular 4.

The general consensus around here has been a blame game on

(1) the breakdown of the OL in the the second half.

(2) JC not being effective in the second half

(3) the WRs not getting open

(4) the defense wearing down late in some games

(5) CP not getting many long runs.

.

1. Heyer and Jansen are just not starter material. Jansen is old, so his only good aspect of run blocking would wear done anyways. Randy Thomas came off surgery and is old as well. That side needs to be replaced.

2. JC not being effective was a 3 part problem. Breakdown of the OL, inability to run, and generic offense with poor play calling and preparation.

3. WRs not getting open was in part due to the defense knowing what we were running before we would run. They could drop into coverage more with our weakened OL.

4. The defense never "wore down". Blache play calling in late games was terrible. He would go in "prevent" mode, on top of having zero pass rush, leads too many times where teams can throw all over us.

5. CP doesn't get long runs since his first year here. He has a lot of miles. Don't expect to see more than a couple of big runs in a season.

[Boy2Der]

Well since that was his first training camp it was probably longer because he wanted to make sure everything was installed. I believe we had the longest camp in the entire nfl but he was still a rookie head coach so he will learn. I remember at the end of the season he said everything will be evaluated so I expect them to have a shorter training camp this time around.

[SirClintonPortis]

I believe CP not getting long runs is because the team doesn't have a second deep threat to make opposing safeties back off, and because the Dancer* is not a good blocker. Hence, playing close to the LOS is a-ok once Moss is taken out.

*Randle El

[Thinking Skins]

Well since that was his first training camp it was probably longer because he wanted to make sure everything was installed. I believe we had the longest camp in the entire nfl but he was still a rookie head coach so he will learn. I remember at the end of the season he said everything will be evaluated so I expect them to have a shorter training camp this time around.

I agree, and what gets me is this concept of the "manditory" clauses in the contracts. I was thinking about that, and think that maybe the purpose of that is to ensure that the players are in shape before training camp, and so that we can have a shorter camp.

This may be a pretty good strategy by Zorn and the front office.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Something I hadn't even considered to be perfectly honest TS, but when you think about the year we had, and the type of niggling injury's we suffered, there may well be a direct correlation between going to camp early and the season catching up with you.

When you consider how much football has changed now, (rather than camp being a concerted time to get players into football shape, they already arrive that way due to the enhanced professionalism turning it into an all year round game), this makes a lot of sense.

It will be interesting to see just how hard he works the players this time out in camp and how early he sends them there.

Something to keep an eye on certainly.

Hail.

[W1N_SKINS]

As everybody knows, we had the earliest starting date for training camps last offseason. And on top of that we played 5 preseason games instead of the regular 4.

The general consensus around here has been a blame game on

(1) the breakdown of the OL in the the second half.

(2) JC not being effective in the second half

(3) the WRs not getting open

(4) the defense wearing down late in some games

(5) CP not getting many long runs.

For weeks we've argued these things individually, trying to see which one is the "real" cause of the problems. But if we look at them together, I think we can see a consistant theme, that the second half of the season, we were not as good as we were in the first half. Could part of the problem have been that Zorn didn't do a good job getting the team ready for a long season?

Normally, I'd be thinking about this in terms of injuries. But our injuries weren't of the type that took players out of games. Many people (Portis, Jansen, Samuels, Kendall, etc) were playing through injuries, and maybe it showed more than it should have.

But I wonder if there is any correlation between other teams that had early training camps and a late season collapse. I know we played Indy in that first game of the season and they went on a late season run, but thats Indy! I wonder if Zorn has considered this, and how the training camp schedule will look for the 2009 season.

interesting very interesting never really thought of it like that

[Thinking Skins]

Something I hadn't even considered to be perfectly honest TS, but when you think about the year we had, and the type of niggling injury's we suffered, there may well be a direct correlation between going to camp early and the season catching up with you.

interesting very interesting never really thought of it like that

thats ok, thats why I'm here.

[cphil006]

on top of that we had 5 games?

We started training camp early because we played 5 preseason games. Our starters played very little. A lot of minutes were used on people who get cut.

I think starting training camp early is great when you have a new offense. In fact, we should do it again this season. Other teams figured out our game plan... WRs need to step up especially Thomas and Kelly.

[Rhodus333]

we had alot of new players, coaches, and system to learn. We needed all the time we could to gel before the season. There's a chance it wore the team out a little more than other teams, but i think it was completely necessary on Zorn's part to get the team up to speed as much as possible.

[darrelgreenie]

As everybody knows, we had the earliest starting date for training camps last offseason. And on top of that we played 5 preseason games instead of the regular 4.

The general consensus around here has been a blame game on

(1) the breakdown of the OL in the the second half.

(2) JC not being effective in the second half

(3) the WRs not getting open

(4) the defense wearing down late in some games

(5) CP not getting many long runs.

For weeks we've argued these things individually, trying to see which one is the "real" cause of the problems. But if we look at them together, I think we can see a consistant theme, that the second half of the season, we were not as good as we were in the first half. Could part of the problem have been that Zorn didn't do a good job getting the team ready for a long season?

I don't think there is any 1 'real' cause of the second half fade.

Imo it was a combination of several intertwined factors.

(1) The decline of the offensive line which highlighted...

(2) Zorn/staff inability to cope with the a heavy pass rush/ blitz heavy defenses....

(3) Which imo lead to a loss of agression in the gameplanning/playcalling.

The passing game and playcalling overall went from attacking to passive.

I recall more shotgun, more 3/4 wide sets, more downfield attempts, a more pass 1st focus early in the season.

I remember when Zorn called a Slant pass on 4th and 2 when we were trying to run out the clock.

That took brass ones.

But, somewhere along the way i felt like Zorn lost his game planning/playcalling edge.

Or maybe teams caught up with him and he didn't have the time or experience or staff in place to effectively adjust the game plan on the fly?

Imo though Zorn's lack of faith in the offensive line effected his playcalling.

Back to the training camp.....

I think Zorn had a hard training camp b/c he had too.

He was a rookie coach installing a new offense, time was his enemy.

Imo it was a blessing to have more time to install the offense.

Unfortunelately our offensive line is old and the extra week didn't help them.

But on the other hand i don't think the decline in performancewas due to the early start.

Their decline imo was due to the fact that they aren't as good as they used to be and they faced some defenses that were intent on exploiting their shortcomings.

We need to get younger along the offensive line.

[Thinking Skins]

Well since that was his first training camp it was probably longer because he wanted to make sure everything was installed. I believe we had the longest camp in the entire nfl but he was still a rookie head coach so he will learn. I remember at the end of the season he said everything will be evaluated so I expect them to have a shorter training camp this time around.

Back to the training camp.....

I think Zorn had a hard training camp b/c he had too.

He was a rookie coach installing a new offense, time was his enemy.

Imo it was a blessing to have more time to install the offense.

I understand the new coach thing, but Atlanta, Baltimore, and Miami all had new coaches and new offenses and they didn't start training camp as early as us.

Another thing about the camp, isn't really about how early we started it, but how physical it was. Couldn't he have had the players do the work in shorts instead of in full pads? Thats getting them ready, but just not exhausting them.

I know Marty was known for doing these types of camps, and no matter what he did here, his teams were known for doing nothing in the postseason. I really wonder if there's any correlation between how hard training camp is and how effective teams are late in the season.

[derekc4]

It's affect not effect.

[HBnotBlades]

I like this thinking, it could have very well played a factor. However, we only started training camp about 2 weeks earlier than others, but the collapse began with 8 weeks left in the season (maybe earlier depending on how you look at it).

[Thinking Skins]

It's affect not effect.

I always get those two confused. Whats the rule for when to use which one?

[SirClintonPortis]

I understand the new coach thing, but Atlanta, Baltimore, and Miami all had new coaches and new offenses and they didn't start training camp as early as us.

Another thing about the camp, isn't really about how early we started it, but how physical it was. Couldn't he have had the players do the work in shorts instead of in full pads? Thats getting them ready, but just not exhausting them.

I know Marty was known for doing these types of camps, and no matter what he did here, his teams were known for doing nothing in the postseason. I really wonder if there's any correlation between how hard training camp is and how effective teams are late in the season.

Well, a 'rookie' may not be that much of a rookie. Sparano had some O-coordinating experience in Dallas, for example. Cam is a very experienced o-coordinator while Harbaugh, I don't know how hands on he was there in Baltimore in either offense or defense.

Zorn was just a QB coach trying to get his o-coordinator and the rest of the O up to speed while trying to manage the rest of the team as well AND develop Jason Campbell. Hopefully, Sherman Smith can be more independent this season with regards to the offense and Zorn can manage things more efficiently during games and during the week.

[SirClintonPortis]

I always get those two confused. Whats the rule for when to use which one?

'Affect' is usually the verb; it's an 'action'. Effect is the usually the 'noun'; it's a concept, idea, whatever you want to call it.

[Thinking Skins]

'Affect' is usually the verb; it's an 'action'. Effect is the usually the 'noun'; it's a concept, idea, whatever you want to call it.

I think I fixed it.

[Vilandil Tasardur]

I don't buy it. Anyone who went to training camp can tell you that it was relaxed enough that it should not be an excuse for guys wearing down. They run a few drills, go through a normal, routine practice, and then lift. A good diet and a good nights rest should have them quite ready to go for the next day.

And as others have said, most of those 5 preseason games went towards guys who got cut. I think anyone who has played football can tell you that practices are rarely so intense that you wear down during the game. Training camp is meant to get you in shape so that you can withstand the NFL season. I just down buy guys wearing down. I mean, guys used to have real jobs that they would get leave from to come to training camp and get into playing shape. They didn't wear down during the season.

Bottom line is these are professional athletes. Their job is to be in shape. I think the only factor that comes in to guys wearing down are things not related to fatigue but instead related to contact, such as knees and shoulders that might wear out and be ineffective later on in the season. This is what I think happened, the older guys just don't have the bone structure to go a 16 game season. That isn't training camp's fault, it's mother natures.

[PROSCOUT]

But I wonder if there is any correlation between other teams that had early training camps and a late season collapse. I know we played Indy in that first game of the season and they went on a late season run, but thats Indy! I wonder if Zorn has considered this, and how the training camp schedule will look for the 2009 season.

Not, thats no Indy. Thats the DIFFERENCE between Peyton Manning and Jason Campbell. If Manning is on the Redskins then we would be making that late season run and be in the playoffs. Jason Campbell is no Peyton Manning.

If Campbell finally gets to 20 TD passes in a season, then we make the playoffs. If he stays at his usual 12-13 then we won't. He needs to improve.

[Lavarleap56]

Not, thats no Indy. Thats the DIFFERENCE between Peyton Manning and Jason Campbell. If Manning is on the Redskins then we would be making that late season run and be in the playoffs. Jason Campbell is no Peyton Manning.

If Campbell finally gets to 20 TD passes in a season, then we make the playoffs. If he stays at his usual 12-13 then we won't. He needs to improve.

Very true

[MrJL]

The problem the team had, aside from the OL, was that the offense was too basic and predictable. One would expect a new offense to take time before it really begins to click, but the team regressed. Thats where I find it most perplexing. The team how more time than other teams to prepare and get ready and learn the new offense. Yet they still regressed. If anything, it looks worse on Zorn IMO.

well my dad has said the same thing and this is a guy who predicts plays with incredible accuracy so I'm inclined to agree. He thinks it's because others teams finally had enough film to properly prepare and the Skins didn't have anything else.

[cphil006]

I understand the new coach thing, but Atlanta, Baltimore, and Miami all had new coaches and new offenses and they didn't start training camp as early as us.

Another thing about the camp, isn't really about how early we started it, but how physical it was. Couldn't he have had the players do the work in shorts instead of in full pads? Thats getting them ready, but just not exhausting them.

I know Marty was known for doing these types of camps, and no matter what he did here, his teams were known for doing nothing in the postseason. I really wonder if there's any correlation between how hard training camp is and how effective teams are late in the season.

We started early b/c we played five preseason games plus new coach. The starters don't play much, so it's not that hard on the body.

Some teams go full pads more than others.

We do need the practice. I don't think we sucked the last part of the season because we were tired. I don't think we knew what we were doing. Some players showed up out of shape.