Art Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 Korny, Your point was addressed. I gave the actual number of drops attributed to Gardner. I gave the same for Owens, Burress and Harrison. You'd like Moss too? Ok. He had 9 drops. He had 8 in his second season. Both, more than Gardner. But, it's about drops and you want to know how Gardner compares with Moulds. Sure thing. Moulds had 10 drops. Twice as many as Gardner. Let's do Jerry Rice. Rice had 10 drops. Huh. More than Gardner. It's all about drops you say? How about Holt? Certainly he had less than Gardner's five drops. Oops. Nope. He had 12. So, let's see now, we've looked at Gardner as a second year player with fewer dropped balls than Moss, Moulds, Harrison, Owens, Burress and Rice. We've seen that Gardner was better in his second year than all but three of the game's top 10 receivers. We've seen that you've continued to ignore reality in replying to people, preferring repetitive spasms of stupidity instead. Odd choice on your part. Failure to recognize how much better Gardner was this year in catching the ball is what appears to be your primary malfunction. You simply have it in your head that Gardner drops more balls than other receivers when in fact the receivers you've named drop the ball more than Gardner. In a debate with someone, when someone has proven the precise opposite of your position to be true the response from you should be, "Thanks." You've avoided the simple for the asinine. Bad form. Given the wealth of information provided to you the only conclusion you can alter your position in order to have it at all meaningful is that Gardner was actually incredibly strong at catching the ball and had remarkably few dropped balls in comparison to other top receivers. But, I don't think you can bring yourself to this admission for you have walked yourself down the plank of a losing platform with your eyes so wide open while doing so, retreat would be a sign of weakness to someone like you, when in fact, retreat would actually show you're not a complete and utter twit that it seems you may well be at this point. Never let facts, however, get in the way of a good rant. Are you sure you're not ASF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted May 23, 2003 Share Posted May 23, 2003 sounds like Korn and NJ, sorry NYC, are stuck in the Matrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser ============================================= I do tire of repeating one argument which is never address. DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS did banks, mathews, wuerffl make him drop the balls?? Let's drive this home once & for all until you get it. DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS get it yet?... DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS a few more times for slow ones... DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS repitition is key with animals DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS Have we almost figure it out folks... DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS one more time for the nerdlings & goober-nuts DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS DROPS Get back to me and let me know what part of that you didn't understand. Pretty ****y for someone with a cheerleader avatar :laugh: You're gonna fit in just fine here son. But you're wrong about Gardner all the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 *BELCH* ok, let's see what the peanut gallary has got to say TARHOG: *LOL* I always prefered quality over quantity. Are their no avatars for quality? I guess not, there are no stats for quality either. ART: The quality of Gardners drops & tips, are not being represented. (when the ball bounces off his face mask, etc.) 1) We agree the passing game was poor last year. 2) You point to the QB play; I point to WR play. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Did the qb's blow it for the WRs? Or did the WRs blow it for the QBs? It's an interesting point, put this is my stance... I liked Ramsey, saw WRs blow plays & create hardship for him, that bothers me. In short they retarded his development. Mathews was ordinary but no less (guilty only of playing it too safe), again I saw WRs blow plays & create hardship for him, that bothered me. Wuerfful, while popular to scapegoat, hardly played and when he did, was better than expected/admitted, again I saw WRs blow plays and create hardship for him, that bothered me. In Ramseys best interests, who I am an ardent supporter, we need a new #1 & #2 WRs. To managements credit, they sold the bank for #1, & have 3 new WRs who will compete with Gardner for #2. I have no performance issue with Gardner as #3 (as long as his contract is reconstructed accordingly). PS. All the drop stats you gave were by people who outcaught, as well as outperformed Gardner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 RG is a hard nosed football player. He'll stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor The Invincible Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I think those drop stats are very much under reported. I saw Gardner drop at least 5 passes in one game, I can't be more specific, but I counted them because I was amazed at how badly he was catching the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 SIDE NOTE: I have seen every catch Gardner ever made as a Redskin. He can only make the common, ordinary, catches. He does not make the hard catch, the clutch catch. He definitely does not require double-coverage from any team in NFC east (except Dallas, and that will change with Neuman & Ross) or any team with a competent CBs, lord forbid the play-offs. Gardner is as stats suggest a stat reciever. He's good for 50 unspectacular, complimentary catches a year. Say what you want of Westbrook, he got injuried too much, was undisciplined route runner, over-rated, overpaid, etc - all fair. He could make spectacular insane catches. Gardner doesn't even have moments. He's a stat cruncher. And who was it who said Art Monk didn't do squat his first four year?? He started in two superbowls?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornheiser Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by Skeletor The Invincible I think those drop stats are very much under reported. I saw Gardner drop at least 5 passes in one game, I can't be more specific, but I counted them because I was amazed at how badly he was catching the ball. =================================== Hallalooya- praise the lord. I saw the team drop 7 coming out of half-time. 3 were Gardners and it only got worst. I know because I was screaming at the television set "how many @#$! balls are you going to @#$! drop" And as if god himself was answering, the broadcaster went, "Wow, Bob? How many drops is that?". --"That's 7 in all, Steve. Gardner's 3rd." --"Wow, that a lot, Bob." --"No kidding Steve, Gardner's dropped more than he's caught so far." I can't believe people sit here & compare him to Art Monk. I guess people make up a lot of stats here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 wanna see some Rod Gardner highlites-- all those easy catches he makes, the only ones he can make...? go to http://ww2.nfl.com/nflfilmstv/ and go to the search function. type in Rod Gardner and check out his stuff. Every play but the first was a tough catch, a couple were downright nasty! Funny though, the only catch that looked easy came from Ramsey... the others from Banks and Woefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ax Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Our biggest problem last year was the O-line. It affected every position on offense. (as it obviously always does) One of the things that has most of us so excited about Ramsey is that he played as good as he did while getting the $hit knocked out of him regularly. He was able to still make throws when all hell was breaking lose. He could be a split second late to start his throw, but still get it there on time because of his arm strength. QB's with weak arms (Shane/Danny) need to be able to step into the throw. They were usually going backwards, making weak arms even weaker. So it wasn't always the QB's fault. But when the ball is continually getting there early, due to immediate pressure, or late because the QB had to move around because of collapsing pockets, bad things are bound to happen. Receivers will be out of position, giving the impression that they either ran a bad route (as sometimes they certainly did) or did not get any separation. (as sometimes they didn't) Throw in the fact that everyone, including the linemen, were learning a new system, and the problems are compounded. Then add the fact that the skill positions were for most of the time manned by young players (except Davis) lacking the ability of most seasoned vets (Green/Lockett/Doering don't count) to better adjust to learning new schemes and making broken plays work, and a rookie head coach learning on the fly, and you have the 2002 Washington Redskins offense. Under those conditions, Gardner had a good year. But along with everybody else, including Davis, he had his fair share of screw-ups. I'll admit I have questioned his desire to do the little things like blocking and or selling your route on plays designed to go elsewhere. But that can easily be attributed to youth. That should change with more experience. Heck, if we can give Norv 7 years to prove he SUCKS as a head coach, we can certainly give Gardner the length of his contract to prove his worth. One thing about stats. While they provide a good starting point, they do not tell the whole story. They are not always worth the paper they are sometimes printed on. If my memory serves me, right before he left the Skins, Heath Shuler's #'s were comparable to several good QB's at similar points in their careers. Terry Bradshaw for one. (don't have a link to stats. just seem to remember reading it back when) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Korny, You wrote, "I have seen every catch Gardner ever made as a Redskin. He can only make the common, ordinary, catches. He does not make the hard catch, the clutch catch." Then you haven't seen every catch Gardner has ever made. Simply put, you're making this stuff up and it's obvious. Gardner's ability to make the very tough catch, with a man all over him, was precisely the type of catch he could make last year and he did make. You say he didn't need to be doubled, yet, by making that statement, it exposes the fact that you, again, didn't watch the games, because, he was not only routinely doubled, but coverages were rolled to his side of the field in every game. A whole lot of you like to give Gardner a drop on balls that he shouldn't have even gotten a fingertip on. Those aren't drops. Those are poor throws by the QB. Ramsey's development, however, wasn't slowed. When Ramsey was in the game for us we were a Top 10 offense. It's not like we couldn't move the ball with him in there. As for Monk, who I, as the rest, love. Here is what he did in his first four years: 1980 was 58 797 13.7 3 1981 was 56 894 16.0 6 1982 was 35 447 12.8 1 1983 was 47 746 15.9 5 Now, what's acceptable is to not know something. What's not acceptable is to simply make stuff up to further a point that doesn't exist. In no game did Gardner drop 5 balls. That's a fantasy self-created to cause you not to like a player you have no justification for being down on. Now, the team did drop a ton of balls against Dallas to close the year. Thompson was the chief culprit, not Gardner. The only consistent bit about the anti-Gardner rants you guys are on is that every comment lacks truth. He can make the tough catches. He doesn't drop balls -- which was a legitimate concern as a rookie. He does draw doubles. He does get open with separation. He's further ahead of the curve than most of today's best receivers at a similar time. The only negatives you guys can come up with in return is a fantasy. It should be enough to bring you back a few steps and realize just how foolish you sound in the face of all that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Kyriacou Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Kornheiser......you sound very much like a QB scorned. Are you Jay Schroeder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by Ax But along with everybody else, including Davis, he had his fair share of screw-ups. I'll admit I have questioned his desire to do the little things like blocking and or selling your route on plays designed to go elsewhere. But that can easily be attributed to youth. That should change with more experience. That's another point important to note about Gardner. It was brought up on several occasions very subtlely by the coaching staff throughout last year... but it was very evident even on the television screen. I DO have a beef with him about that. That has to do with heart, concentration and taking pride in your work... and that's what seperates a talented player from those who are the best at what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfchamp1 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser ============================================ Well when he makes it a habbit let me know. Owens is, in my opinion at worst, one of the top three receivers in the league. I watch him make a lot of spectacular plays, but he sure does drop a lot of balls. I've seen several of his mistakes lead to turnovers too. Does anyone know where we can find exact stats for dropped balls? In Gardner's first year he dropped way too many balls. They tried to force feed him the ball to make Marty look good in picking him in the first round. Last year he showed some real promise and deceptive speed. He could be a top ten receiver if the stars are aligned right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 Just throwing this in to stir the pot a pit... but does anyone else remember the first game of the NFL season last year between the Giants/49ers? Owens had a TERRIBLE game with about 5 drops alone... and it took him a few games early in the season to get on track. Gardner had his fair share of drops in his rookie season. But it wasn't even an issue last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted May 24, 2003 Author Share Posted May 24, 2003 Originally posted by Kornheiser ============================================ Well when he makes it a habbit let me know. Fine. Before catching the game winning catch aganist the Packers in a Wildcard game a few seasons ago. Owens was getting ragged on all season for his drops, and had even dropped 4 passes in that very game. Two of them, might I add, could've been touchdowns and there would've been no need for the last minute heroics. Moss dropped passes and played sloppy for the whole first half of last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted May 24, 2003 Share Posted May 24, 2003 I remember that game. He was dropping a lot of passes that would have made a difference. I believe at one point he was near tears out of frustration.... he ended up making a great catch to win the game and all was forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earl Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 i think it took peerless price 3 yrs. to come out. i mean who was great in thier 1st 2 yrs? Moss, thats about it. owens didn't come out great his first 2 yrs. coles took 3 yrs. i mean he has improved from year to year and thats all u can ask from a young player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 We have a system in place for consecutive years as well as to an extent the same QB. Those that want to criticize conveniently ignore the fact that our QBs did suck as well as the O line. The guys who jock you seem to be glued to was in the same system for 3 years with the same QB. Lets see how Gardner performs this year which should be stellar if the QB remains healthy. Its when he blows up and has a 90 to 100 plus reception year that we wonder if he will stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Well, afger reading all this, the one conclusion I can make is that this kornheiser fool is indeed as Art said, making it ALL up. It really looks as thoug he backed himself into a corner and refuses to come out, regardless of how stupid it makes him look. Gardner has extremely strong hands, it was one of the premier reasons the redskins even drafted him. He has an fantastic ability to position himself for the ball, and his strong hands have allowed him to snatch passes away in traffic. I have seen him do it NUMEROUS times. I would suggest that this kornheiser twit shut his yap until he can come up with something real. Seriously, dude. You look stupid. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorebird Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 JBoomba said it in a nutshell. This ain't college, and you can't change qb's every week and expect for your recievers to be productive, especially a second year reciever. Heck, I bet it was messing with the veterans minds on the Skins. I looked like Spurrier didn't have a clue as to what he was doing. I hope the Skins do let Gardner go, and I hope the Eagles snatch him up just as they did James Thrash. I like him. Anyone who watched him at Clemson knows he has a load of potential. He is a good second year reciever, considering that I don't think you can judge him fairly with the way Spurrier was running the offense last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 Originally posted by shorebird JBoomba said it in a nutshell. This ain't college, and you can't change qb's every week and expect for your recievers to be productive, especially a second year reciever. Heck, I bet it was messing with the veterans minds on the Skins. I looked like Spurrier didn't have a clue as to what he was doing. \ I love this idea outside of DC that Spurrier changed Qbs last year just for the hell of it. To enlighten those who didn't see, both Matthews and Weurffell were knocked out of action on two seperate occasions last season. That is four Qb changes made due to the QB being hurt during the course of a game. Only one Qb change, that of Ramsey to the bench in the mid point of the year, was made because the coach WANTED to make the change. And even that was for Ramsey's own good. By the way,,, which veterans on offense are you talking about that the Redskins had last year? Who was to confuse? I can tell you who looks like they haven't a clue as to what's going on, and it ain't Spurrier.... ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted May 25, 2003 Share Posted May 25, 2003 I had a nice encounter today with a friend of mine's fiance. He is a die-hard Steelers fan and a football fanatic.... and he thinks the Skins are gonna go to the Super Bowl. While I didn't necessarily agree with him it was nice to hear from another fan (non-Skins) that he was very impressed with our additions and thinks it will make a significant impact in our teams performance. HTTR!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorebird Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Only one qb change for something other than an injury?? C'mon! In the 3rd game of the season against San Fran, Spurrier pulled Matthews for Wuerfful in the fourth quarter 'cause he was ineffective in a 10-20 loss. In game seven against the Colts, Matthews started after Ramsey threw for a measley 135 yards agianst Green Bay the week before, and threw 4 int's the week before that in a loss to New Orleans. Up to that point, Ramsey had 2 starts and been sacked 13 times! Matthews won that Colt game, throwing 2 td's. In game 11, Wuerfful started in a 20-17 win against St. Louis, after Matthews had lost the week before against the Giants, 19-17. Although Matthews had thrown for 2 td's in the Giant game, he only had 113 yards. Spurrier started Ramsey in game 14 against the Eagles in a 21-34 loss, after Wuerfful lost the week before to the Giants. Wuerfful was replaced by Ramsey in the Giant game due to a sprained shoulder, but could have played the next week agianst Philly. Ramsey started all the remaining games, probably 'cause the Skins were out of the playoffs. There were two other times that there was a change, in week two Wuerffel replaced Matthews due to a bruised shoulder. In week four, Ramsey came off the bench to pass for 268 yards and 2 td's when Wuerfful injured his shoulder. Thats not counting the two times Ramsey mopped up for Wuerfful and Matthews, passing once each time and throwing two int's. All in all, that's four times Spurrier changed qb's without having one injured, and three times because of injury. Any way you cut it, the revolving door was going at full speed. Not until the end of the season when the season was lost did it stop. http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/WAS/2002/regular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted May 26, 2003 Share Posted May 26, 2003 Originally posted by shorebird Only one qb change for something other than an injury?? C'mon! In the 3rd game of the season against San Fran, Spurrier pulled Matthews for Wuerfful in the fourth quarter 'cause he was ineffective in a 10-20 loss. In game seven against the Colts, Matthews started after Ramsey threw for a measley 135 yards agianst Green Bay the week before, and threw 4 int's the week before that in a loss to New Orleans. Up to that point, Ramsey had 2 starts and been sacked 13 times! Matthews won that Colt game, throwing 2 td's. In game 11, Wuerfful started in a 20-17 win against St. Louis, after Matthews had lost the week before against the Giants, 19-17. Although Matthews had thrown for 2 td's in the Giant game, he only had 113 yards. Spurrier started Ramsey in game 14 against the Eagles in a 21-34 loss, after Wuerfful lost the week before to the Giants. Wuerfful was replaced by Ramsey in the Giant game due to a sprained shoulder, but could have played the next week agianst Philly. Ramsey started all the remaining games, probably 'cause the Skins were out of the playoffs. There were two other times that there was a change, in week two Wuerffel replaced Matthews due to a bruised shoulder. In week four, Ramsey came off the bench to pass for 268 yards and 2 td's when Wuerfful injured his shoulder. Thats not counting the two times Ramsey mopped up for Wuerfful and Matthews, passing once each time and throwing two int's. All in all, that's four times Spurrier changed qb's without having one injured, and three times because of injury. Any way you cut it, the revolving door was going at full speed. Not until the end of the season when the season was lost did it stop. http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/WAS/2002/regular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.