Redskins Just Fell Behind the Kansas City Chiefs

[ECU-ALUM]

If the Skins don't get into the playoffs next year and win (and with the Eagles & Ravens doing so well)...it wouldn't surprise me if not only Zorn and Vinny are shown the door.

I like to believe that once Snyder sees how important a good front office crew is to an organization he might take some action. Then again I like to believe a lot of things...doesn't mean that they are true.

[Shilsu]

it looks like tony gonzalez doesn't feel like rebuilding and is asking to be traded.

:secret:don't tell vinny.

Oh ****.

A legitimate red zone threat over 6' who has mad athleticism and hands. Should we trade draft pick(s) for him, there probably wouldn't have been a lineman worth taking at the spot(s) anyway.

Do it now! Can you imagine our THREE TE sets? Holy ****, we'll be unstoppable! How are opposing defenses gonna stop Chris Cooley, Fred Davis, and Tony Gonzalez? They can't!!!!

[Ant15fromNJ]

All we need is a QB.

[addicted]

The Chiefs have a better QB, WR, TE, and at the moment coach then we do. They also have one of the best stadiums to play in. Adding a real GM with Superbowl credit on his resume doesn't put them over us, they already were

[Smoot Point Really]

The Chiefs have a better QB, WR, TE, and at the moment coach then we do. They also have one of the best stadiums to play in. Adding a real GM with Superbowl credit on his resume doesn't put them over us, they already were

They have won a total of 6 games in the last 2 years and haven't won a playoff game since 1993... What exactly makes them better than us?

[The Sisko]

They have won a total of 6 games in the last 2 years and haven't won a playoff game since 1993... What exactly makes them better than us?

Because even though their on-field results have been worse than ours over that span, one gets the feeling they're putting talent in place in key positions, most notably in their F.O. with the addition of Pioli, that will help them get better in the next two or three years.

Can you honestly say that about the Skins? Or, is it more likely that we maintain the status quo in the F.O. and Zorn will have just been fired and another new coach is trying to install his system? Smart money would go with the latter.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Because even though their on-field results have been worse than ours over that span, one gets the feeling they're putting talent in place in key positions, most notably in their F.O. with the addition of Pioli, that will help them get better in the next two or three years.

Can you honestly say that about the Skins? Or, is it more likely that we maintain the status quo in the F.O. and Zorn will have just been fired and another new coach is trying to install his system? Smart money would go with the latter.

Yusuf, getting back to the Cassel business for one moment... how do you know that Cassel was not the beneficiary of the system?

I mean, Tom Brady was passed over through five rounds before the Patriots selected him and Cassel played second string to Matt Leinart at USC. Not to mention, his career started out as a baseball player.

[TheLongshot]

It's also funny that Snyder "chose" the low profile guy after getting turned down by a higher profile choice. I'm sorry but Zorn was the fallback choice after nobody they wanted would take the job. But then that was a problem of their own making. After all, what NFL HC or prospective HC worth his salt would walk into a situation where Lord Farquaad and Mini Me have already selected an offensive coordinator?

Talk about pulling stuff out of your ass. There were two coaches who pulled themselves out of the running, Mora Jr, who soon after got named the successor in Seattle, and Spags, whom Snyder and Vinny said the feeling was mutual. Considering that it looks like that Spags will spend another year as the D-Coordinator for the Giants, it looks like he's picking his destination carefully. Either that, or teams don't feel he's a great candidate for HC.

There were plenty out there who did want the job. Ron Meeks, Jim Schwartz and Jim Fassel all were still interested. Zorn was hired after all of those guys were interviewed, so I'd suspect that most of those guys probably talked about Zorn and there was enough positive said about him that hiring him was a no brainer.

So, saying that Zorn was the last resort is just plain wrong.+

[The Sisko]

Yusuf, getting back to the Cassel business for one moment... how do you know that Cassel was not the beneficiary of the system?

I mean, Tom Brady was passed over through five rounds before the Patriots selected him and Cassel played second string to Matt Leinart at USC. Not to mention, his career started out as a baseball player.

Who's system? I thought the same thing until Charlie Weis left-and Brady kept churning out the yards, TDs and wins.

Besides, as you describe him Cassel was basically not worth drafting. So Pioli drafts him and wonder of wonders he MAY be good enough to start, and at the very least is a good backup.

As I said earlier, at some point you have to stop dismissing it as luck and just acknowlege that the guy actually knows what he's doing.

[addicted]

They have won a total of 6 games in the last 2 years and haven't won a playoff game since 1993... What exactly makes them better than us?

Because even though the Chiefs haven't won crap the last two years they have built up a very strong team of playmakers and now just needs the front office to push them over the hump of success.

Tyler Thigpen is better then Jason Campbell

Dwayne Bowe is better then Santana Moss

Larry Johnson is not as good as Clinton Portis but he still has a lot in his tank as yhe had 2 games this season over 200 yards rushing

Tony Gonzalez is better then Chris Cooley

That right there on Offense is the makings of a very strong team. The Chiefs went from sugar to crap because they lost 2 ALL PRO offensive linemen two season ago. We can't sniff a single All Pro player on the entire team and they've had to replace two future likely hall of famers which takes time. The Chiefs Defense hurt them this season but when your building for the future your going to have a few years of bad records in order to compete in the future. The Chiefs are on the way up while we are on the way down.

[addicted]

Talk about pulling stuff out of your ass. There were two coaches who pulled themselves out of the running, Mora Jr, who soon after got named the successor in Seattle, and Spags, whom Snyder and Vinny said the feeling was mutual. Considering that it looks like that Spags will spend another year as the D-Coordinator for the Giants, it looks like he's picking his destination carefully. Either that, or teams don't feel he's a great candidate for HC.

There were plenty out there who did want the job. Ron Meeks, Jim Schwartz and Jim Fassel all were still interested. Zorn was hired after all of those guys were interviewed, so I'd suspect that most of those guys probably talked about Zorn and there was enough positive said about him that hiring him was a no brainer.

So, saying that Zorn was the last resort is just plain wrong.+

As usual your astute memory serves you well Longshot. Anyone saying that the only reason we went with Zorn as head coach was because no one else wanted the job is flat out wrong. We are not the Raiders, at least not yet. Being head coach of the Washinton Redskins still has a lot of importance in the league although I suspect that will deminish in time as long as Snyder is around. Good post

[TheLongshot]

I could agree with this theory except that there's the issue of Matt Cassell. I guess Pioli just got lucky there too huh?

Besides, take look at the Patsies' draft history. They sure do seem to get "lucky" an awful lot, especially in the later rounds of the draft.

So that begs the question, how much "luck" does one have to have before it becomes clear that it's actually skill?

And how much of it is being in the same offensive system for 4 years, sitting behind one of the best QBs in the NFL, and having a pretty damn good supporting cast? You can also say the same for Romo sits to pee. I want to see a similar thing to happen with Colt.

That is why I think the biggest detriment to this organization since Snyder took over was the revolving door with the coaches. Yet, people here want to perpetuate that behavior. Yeah, let's get rid of everyone and start over again because there is a shiny GM out there you want to add to the mix. No matter that we've done that crap before and we see how far back that can set back a team.

To be able to build anything, you have to stick to a plan. The plan for this team was established last year by deciding that Vinny was going to be head of football operations and Vinny and Snyder hiring Zorn. Ditching that plan puts us back to the early years of the Snyder ownership, and it isn't exactly where I want this team to be.

[Arsenic]

The only reason Zorn is the hc is that nobody legit wanted the job.

Is this a fact?

Did you forget offering two 1st rounders for Chad Johnson during the draft?

You never know.. The Redskins might be in the playoffs had they aquired Chad Johnson. People are picking and choosing their facts to support their arguements. Theres been plenty of good moves and drafts (S. Taylor, Cooley, Fletcher, Springs, Landry, Moss, Portis, Horton) and plenty of others that im sure ive missed.

[The Sisko]

Talk about pulling stuff out of your ass. There were two coaches who pulled themselves out of the running, Mora Jr, who soon after got named the successor in Seattle, and Spags, whom Snyder and Vinny said the feeling was mutual. Considering that it looks like that Spags will spend another year as the D-Coordinator for the Giants, it looks like he's picking his destination carefully. Either that, or teams don't feel he's a great candidate for HC.

There were plenty out there who did want the job. Ron Meeks, Jim Schwartz and Jim Fassel all were still interested. Zorn was hired after all of those guys were interviewed, so I'd suspect that most of those guys probably talked about Zorn and there was enough positive said about him that hiring him was a no brainer.

So, saying that Zorn was the last resort is just plain wrong.+

That Mora Jr. was even in the running says they know nothing about evaluating coaches. That guy is a flat out joke. :doh: To a lesser degree, the same is true of Mooch and Fassel.

As for Spags picking his destination carefully, what does it say to you that we didn't make the cut? To me it says he thinks we're in the same boat as the other teams with openings. That would be the Jest, Lions, Browns, Raiders and Donkeys....other than perhaps Denver that's not particularly good company to be in. :mad:

However, In your mind I'm sure it was just a matter of Spaguolo feeling he wasn't good enough to measure up to our top notch F.O. organization.

[TheLongshot]

Tyler Thigpen is better then Jason Campbell

That's a bit of a reach. He had some bigger games, but I don't think he's a better QB than Campbell right now. Considering that he plays in probably the worst division in the AFC, I'd expect that he'd be half decent.

Dwayne Bowe is better then Santana Moss

I'd say it is a push. They are both pretty good WRs who mostly have to do it by themselves.

Larry Johnson is not as good as Clinton Portis but he still has a lot in his tank as yhe had 2 games this season over 200 yards rushing

LJ has missed parts of the last two seasons. I don't know if you can say that he has "a lot in his tank". I also see only one game where he got close to 200 yards, and that was against Denver.

Tony Gonzalez is better then Chris Cooley

Slightly, but I doubt Gonzo will be playing for the Chiefs next season. He doesn't want to be around a rebuilding project, and I fully understand that.

The main benefit the Chiefs have is a high draft position and $30m of cap space. But, they need a lot of parts to be a decent team.

[Die Hard]

If the Chiefs sign Spags..... I'm all in. That combination is going to be fun to watch.

[TheLongshot]

That Mora Jr. was even in the running says they know nothing about evaluating coaches. That guy is a flat out joke. :doh: To a lesser degree, the same is true of Mooch and Fassel.

Well, the Seahawks don't see him as a joke, and they certainly have seen more success than us in recent years.

Also, I note that you didn't mention Meeks or Schwartz, but you mention Mooch, who despite all the speculation JLC and the media created about that, never interviewed for the job. Come back when you actually educate yourself on what happened with the head coaching search, because you are sounding pretty clueless.

As for Spags picking his destination carefully, what does it say to you that we didn't make the cut? To me it says he thinks we're in the same boat as the other teams with openings. That would be the Jest, Lions, Browns, Raiders and Donkeys....other than perhaps Denver that's not particularly good company to be in. :mad:

However, In your mind I'm sure it was just a matter of Spaguolo feeling he wasn't good enough to measure up to our top notch F.O. organization.

Most head coaching positions aren't going to be prime locations by definition. Honestly, he's got a pretty cushy job and is getting paid very well to stay where he is. That's true of most high profile assistants. It probably will take a lot to dislodge him from that position.

There is also an assumption by you that if he wanted the job, it would have been his. There is absolutely no evidence out there that that would have been so. The FO even said that they weren't interested in hiring him after the interview. No doubt partially because they had a lot of time to stew over Jim Zorn.

[addicted]

That is why I think the biggest detriment to this organization since Snyder took over was the revolving door with the coaches. Yet, people here want to perpetuate that behavior. Yeah, let's get rid of everyone and start over again because there is a shiny GM out there you want to add to the mix. No matter that we've done that crap before and we see how far back that can set back a team.

To be able to build anything, you have to stick to a plan. The plan for this team was established last year by deciding that Vinny was going to be head of football operations and Vinny and Snyder hiring Zorn. Ditching that plan puts us back to the early years of the Snyder ownership, and it isn't exactly where I want this team to be.

Longshot don't you think that this team needs to go with a proven winner at the coaching and GM positions?

When Snyder has gone with proven winning coaches we went with Schottenheimer and Gibbs and we had success with them both. When we went with unproven talent we went with Zorn and Spurrier and although we can say that the books not written on Zorns legacy yet, we know that Spurrier was a complete failure.

I don't think we can actually say that about our GM since Vinny has been doing the job so long (titles are useless, the functions the same. You can call a GM a peanut butter sandwich but if that peanut butter sandwich does the same job as a GM aren't they really the same?) that we haven't had the opportunity to see what an expirenced GM could do here.

What I'm trying to say is that on this team when we've gone out of the box and used head coaches that have had success in the past we had success. When Gibbs was here no one other then Gibbs himself made him leave. If Joe wanted to stay for the 5th year he most certainly would have. So your point about sticking with one system seems a bit short sighted to me.

Do you believe when Marty was here and we went from 0-5 to end the year at 8-8 that we were heading in the right or wrong direction? I believe we were moving towards the right way but Snyder fired him anyway. The reason we had turnover here sits squarly on Snyder himself.

Next up was the reign of an unproven coach Steve Spurrier. In his the time here he met failure after failure. Do you believe that had he been given a third season of coaching he would have met success? I don't.

Then there was Gibbs. Gibbs had success and then walked away. That was his choice to leave. Had he stayed this season I expect we would have made the playoffs. Its just my guess but I suspect we would have.

Regardless the bottom line about the turnover at head coach has partly been due to Snyder and partly on the head coach himself. When we've gone with a winning head coach we have had success. And when we gave that winning successful head coach full control he ended the year 8-3. The key with the coaches in my estimation is not that we've had turnover there, that's a part of NFL life. The problem is that we haven't stuck with what has worked long enough.

The teams shown that when Ceratto is out of the picture and we go with a proven winning head coach we have the best success. Show me another stretch where this team this decade has gone 8-3 over an 11 game span if you disagree. We need a proven head coach with complete control and we will right this ship. Problem is that right now we have:

1. An unproven head coach

2. Vinny Ceratto is in the picture

A recipe for disaster. I expect changes to come in 2010 when Snyder gets rid of Vinny and dumps Zorn. Hope I'm wrong about this but ending the year 2-6 I don't see this getting better next year.

[Ernie5]

THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:FIRE VINNY!

- Cerrato has had the GM job for one season. While I dislike the J. Taylor move, I left pretty much everything else he did, including adding draft picks in 2008. He could still wind up sucking, but he has not, contrary to a really strange view, been doing this for a long time. Perhaps he should have been -- or, better put, perhaps he should have running personnel instead of Gibbs the prior 4 season, but that's not how it went. 2009 is a big year for VC; let's not assume we know how it's going to go.

- The notion that Spags might pick KC over the Redskins is a little presumptuous. First, it assumes he'll be offered the KC job. Second, it assumes he'll accept the KC job. Third, it assumes he was offered and refused the Washington job. Since we don't know any of these things, I think it's a little early to start crying in our oatmeal about it.

- Amazingly, I'm reading more complaining about Zorn not being a "name" head coach -- this from people who complain that Snyder only goes after big names. Wow, what hypocrisy. I know: it's been phrased as "We went with winners and succeeded and went with Zorn and went nowhere," but a couple of facts:

1. Many good coaches had limited experience and weren't "known" by the greater public when they were hired: Tomlin, Reid, Harbaugh, Whisenhunt. Just because you didn't know about Jim Zorn doesn't mean he wasn't a qualified hire.

2. The winners (the "proven head coaches") -- Schottenheimer and Gibbs -- went a combined 40-42 in regular season games for the Redskins. I am one of those fans who believe that Schottenheimer should have gotten at least a 2nd year, but he did no better than Zorn did this past season.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Who's system? I thought the same thing until Charlie Weis left-and Brady kept churning out the yards, TDs and wins.

Besides, as you describe him Cassel was basically not worth drafting. So Pioli drafts him and wonder of wonders he MAY be good enough to start, and at the very least is a good backup.

As I said earlier, at some point you have to stop dismissing it as luck and just acknowlege that the guy actually knows what he's doing.

We are not discussing Brady in this equation... also, you can not tell me that Cassel was not a gamble pick. We can make the argument that New England's scouting department is leaps and bounds ahead of the Redskins, but at what point do you ask yourself if he is a product of the system?

If you were the GM, would you have drafted Cassel knowing that he was a former baseball player and played sparingly during his career at USC. Cassel is what you would've called a "project" and someone who would rarely see the field with Brady leading the troops.

All of a sudden, because he has a turn-out season with receivers such as Moss, Welker and Gaffney (whom Brady threw to also), that he is a prototypical QB.

Because even though the Chiefs haven't won crap the last two years they have built up a very strong team of playmakers and now just needs the front office to push them over the hump of success.

Tyler Thigpen is better then Jason Campbell

Dwayne Bowe is better then Santana Moss

Larry Johnson is not as good as Clinton Portis but he still has a lot in his tank as yhe had 2 games this season over 200 yards rushing

Tony Gonzalez is better then Chris Cooley

That right there on Offense is the makings of a very strong team. The Chiefs went from sugar to crap because they lost 2 ALL PRO offensive linemen two season ago. We can't sniff a single All Pro player on the entire team and they've had to replace two future likely hall of famers which takes time. The Chiefs Defense hurt them this season but when your building for the future your going to have a few years of bad records in order to compete in the future. The Chiefs are on the way up while we are on the way down.

As Longshot stated, Larry Johnson is pretty much through with these surmounting injuries that he's had the past two years. He has already hit the wall...

Thigpen looks like a very promising quarterback but was given the reins after Huard went down, not to mention, a third string which is pretty impressive. Let's see how he does during a 16 game stretch.

If the Chiefs sign Spags..... I'm all in. That combination is going to be fun to watch.

Spags will have his struggles also just like every other coach unless you are the Falcon or Miami.

I still believe that Zorn has been getting unwanted criticism due to the fact that he took over Gibbs' scraps.

[The extremist]

BTW, Pioli and the Patriots passed on Tom Brady 5-6 times also. It's not like they knew they had a franchise QB when they picked him. The rest of the picks are pretty average, and once the team was in place they added significant pieces through free agency and trade (not the draft)... Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Junior Seau, Adalius Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Jabar Gaffney, Lamont Jordan, Rodney Harrison, Sammy Morris (to name a few key components over the last 7 years or so)...

Patriots got lucky landing Tom Brady in the 6th round... You get a franchise QB, it's the first step to building a contender. Quite a few of the free agents and current players who took less money to stay in New England were the result from having Brady and Belichick.

Anyway, back to the Chiefs... My prediction? In 3 years, the Chiefs won't be better than the Redskins.

wow...just wow...please compare the full drafts, trades and signings between the pats and the skins the past few years and get back to us...

you may not like pioli for whatever reason; you may think he got where he is just by luck and support of smart ownership (as far off-base as that assumption may be) -- but PLEASE admit pioli would have been an instant and immediate upgrade over anyone else in the skins FO...

[darrell1106]

Gibbs as GM would suck. Thankfully, Bobby Beathard was GM back in the day.

Keep in mind Pioli did not have final say so in the Patriots player personnel decision. It has always been Belichick

[addicted]

That's a bit of a reach. He had some bigger games, but I don't think he's a better QB than Campbell right now. Considering that he plays in probably the worst division in the AFC, I'd expect that he'd be half decent.

Thigpen will be much better then Jason Campbell. I know you like to think that because he's our QB he is better, sorry but that's not at all the case.

Thigpen started 11 games, had 2,608 yards (637 less then Campbell) 18 TD's (more then Campbell) 12 INTs (More then Campbell). Jason Campbell also started 16 games for us this year. These were Thigpens first games in his NFL career. If Thigpen had played all season he woulda had more yards then Jason no doubt. For his first year of starting he played very well and outplayed Jason. I'd trade Jason Campbell for Thipen all day any day without hesitating for a second.

I'd say it is a push. They are both pretty good WRs who mostly have to do it by themselves.

You might be the only one to think this. Dwayne Bowe is a stud and a true number one WR where as Moss is a #2. Bowe creates seperation, Moss can't. Bowe is going into his third year and averging close to 1000 yards a year and 7 TD's where as Santana Moss didn't crack 1000 yards receiving until his third year. Moss is entering his 9th season. Bowe long term looks to be a hell of a WR and Moss will be slowing down soon. I'd trade Moss all day any day for Dwayne Bowe without hesitating

LJ has missed parts of the last two seasons. I don't know if you can say that he has "a lot in his tank". I also see only one game where he got close to 200 yards, and that was against Denver.

Its true that LJ isn't as good as Portis. I didn't say he was. As for him missing time this year that wasn't injuries, that was for personal problems. He does have a lot in his tank left. He averaged 4.5 yards a carry this season, better then Portis. Your right about the 200 yards...not sure why I thought that. Musta been sleeping when I wrote that. Since there is a theme I'm going with here I would never trade Portis for LJ

Slightly, but I doubt Gonzo will be playing for the Chiefs next season. He doesn't want to be around a rebuilding project, and I fully understand that.

Slightly? Dude your high. Gonzalez led all TE's this year in yardage and TD's. Only a die hard Redskin homer would say Tony Gonzalez is slighly better then Chris Cooley. Both are great but Tony G. is the best ever in the history of the league. I think you wrote that jokingly. And for the record I would trade Cooley for Gonzo as long as we got at least a 4th round pick as well due to Gonzo entering his 13th year in the league to go with the trade. He's old but damn he's still the best in the league

The main benefit the Chiefs have is a high draft position and $30m of cap space. But, they need a lot of parts to be a decent team.

The do need parts but they have some awesome starting pieces to be sure. And they have a leader to make this team better, can't say we have that at all

[Ernie5]

Tyler Thigpen is better then Jason Campbell

Dwayne Bowe is better then Santana Moss

Larry Johnson is not as good as Clinton Portis but he still has a lot in his tank as yhe had 2 games this season over 200 yards rushing

Tony Gonzalez is better then Chris Cooley

WHAT? Sorry, but Tyler Thigpen, based on what has been demonstrated so far, is not as talented, accomplished, or impactful (is that a word?) than Jason Campbell. That just saps you of any credibility right off the bat.

Larry Johnson is not only not as good as Portis, he doesn't work 1/4 as hard, is a pill, and severely injury-prone. You can have him.

Yes, Tony Gonzalez is better than Chris Cooley. A Hall of Famer, in fact. He's also 6 years older than Cooley and has lobbied actively (read: begged) off the Chiefs for at least a year now. I wonder if Pioli tries to see what he can get for him now before it's too late.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

wow...just wow...please compare the full drafts, trades and signings between the pats and the skins the past few years and get back to us...

you may not like pioli for whatever reason; you may think he got where he is just by luck and support of smart ownership (as far off-base as that assumption may be) -- but PLEASE admit pioli would have been an instant and immediate upgrade over anyone else in the skins FO...

What does that say about Belichick (sp?) if Pioli is deserving of all the praise for the Patriot's success?